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Can he be placed?

18K views 174 replies 32 participants last post by  my boy diesel 
#1 · (Edited)
Unhappy Brutus Buckeye

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Hi. I just joined yesterday. Unfortunately we have a problem with our beloved Brutus Buckeye. He badly bit a child who was playing with our two granddaughters in our house. Everything worked out fine with the child, her mom and her grandparents. One attitude is that he needs to be put down. Another (mine) is that surely there is a place for him with someone else in the right environment. Help.


Thanks for the responses. Here is more background. Brutus had been a problem at his prior residence as he had nipped at a couple of kids (always around the granddaughters) so I guess he was showing his protectiveness. We now have him at our house 95 percent of the time and we just moved to be close to the grandkids. The child he bit a few days ago was new to him. There was a puncture of the forearm, a gash in the calf and a bite in the back that showed all four canine teeth in action. Fortunately he released, probably when I intervened. He is now four and we got him when he was two. He had training at about one year old but I don't know what kind.
 
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#113 ·
Given his history I don't see a good outcome up ahead. I thought the description was misleading, probably unintentionally. Protection??? Puh-leeez. And his actual history as described here is considerably more problematic than the owner led the rescue to believe. Contained b/c he got too excited...Major major eyeroll. 'No prior incident'. Now that whopper will cost the tale teller some serious time in Purgatory. Nope, they're soft peddling his very real, very serious aggression problems, which unfortunately could continue to escalate.

The owner should be ashamed of what he's done. I only hope that other innocent people, especially young children, don't pay the price for his evasion & dishonesty.
 
#116 ·
biting in two different homes is not good and i am with rt and cant see this ending well
i hope nobody is killed over this
chip you dont get it
a bite that comes close to or severs an artery can be fatal before any help arrives
if i was the parent of the child in this thread with 3 separate bites requiring stitches i would have insisted that dog be euthanized
people are such bleeding heart idiots
 
#118 ·
I am sure the rescue group talked to everyone involved and based on that info decided that this dog could be helped. I didn't see anything in their post about him that wasn't true. People that know the dog vouched for him also. They know what the liabilities are and I'm sure they are equipped to deal with this dog or else they wouldn't be.
 
#120 · (Edited)
My boy diesel, I'm really surprised by your posts. It wasn't very long ago that both of us were defending the 5 year old GSD who bit the daughter. You even went so far as to talk to the owner on the phone, and were willing to take his dog. I know this case is different, in the severity of the bites, but the thing this dog has over the other one is at least this dog didn't go for a family member. That's a big deal, and some would say an even bigger deal.

If you care enough to change the font size and color, then you're obviously very upset by this. But why not invest some time reading the comments on the fb page, and read that one of the people actually knows this dog, and has had him at their facility, saying he's a great dog? It's probably against the rules to post it myself, or I would.

You can't get mad at other members here that want all dogs that snap/nip/bite PTS if you're going to allow a variation on it - not at the same time as condemning others who draw the line in a different spot in the sand. I admit, from what we know, this was a vicious attack. But if someone is willing to take on the responsibility that goes along with rehoming this dog, and can assure that no other injuries will happen, then why not try to save this dog. I'm sure the owners are already heartbroken over this whole thing.
 
#121 · (Edited)
In the case of the 5 year old GSD that bit the daughter it was a first bite, one bite and release. The girl was not bonded with the dog and had been told to not put her face in the dogs face and the dog also gave verbal warnings. I was one of the those who felt the dog should get another chance but with a good trainer.

IMO what makes this case different was a pattern, though not clearly specified the comments about 'nipping' or 'snapping' and needing to be crated when ever strangers came over Plus the fact that this was not a one bite and release situation.

So while I would not put it the way MBD did, I do think different types of bites/attacks and aggressive behaviors justify the different responses.

I personally don't draw the line at whether the person bit was a family member but at the context and type of bite(s).

When a dog goes out of its way to initiate an attack and/or goes on with multiple bites then it goes to whole new level of concern.

Having said that I think you're correct that even if some of the information given the rescue is fuzzy or incomplete they've got enough to know this dog must be handled with extreme caution.
 
#122 ·
We'll never know the whole story, not in either case. But in both cases the dogs were known to be a problem, and this is where the phrase "an accident waiting to happen" is the tragic reality. In the other case, the daughter had been warned not to hug the dog. Obviously this warning had been issued for a reason, and disregarding that warning came at a high cost.

This dog was always crated around guests, with this one horrific exception. I'm in no way trying to downplay the seriousness of the multiple bites, but I'm wondering if this dog could have lived out his life in that home if the management had never faltered. Crated 100% of the time around guests, instead of letting their guard down?

I know with my child-unfriendly GSD, I accepted the fact that he'd never be around them, period. Why he hated them I'll never know, since he wasn't my puppy to raise. Maybe another owner would have trained him to like them? Or tried and failed? My choice was to keep them well separated and it worked.
 
#123 · (Edited)
in blue, probably!...but they didn't and the bites happened.

Like you and I were chatting about, I don't ignore warning signs because it often ends badly. BUT people either think the dog 'doesn't mean it' or that they can just 'love the dog enough' or they think they know how to train a dog like that and it stop it from being aggressive. They don't go to a good GSD knowledgeable trainer and then there's a problem (which was the problem with the Kuvasz btw....they knew enough to know there was a problem but didn't take concrete, active steps to do something about it early on).

BTW in dog bite prevention literature it's one of the rules they teach kids in general, don't stick your face in a dogs face so it's a safety rule that applies to all children.

I dunno, all I can say is this dog has some lucky stars lining up for him. The parents of the child who was bit didn't push for him to be PTS and then they find a rescue that will take an owner surrender dog that attacked a 7 year old requiring stitches. That in of itself is amazing.




We'll never know the whole story, not in either case. But in both cases the dogs were known to be a problem, and this is where the phrase "an accident waiting to happen" is the tragic reality. In the other case, the daughter had been warned not to hug the dog. Obviously this warning had been issued for a reason, and disregarding that warning came at a high cost.

This dog was always crated around guests, with this one horrific exception. I'm in no way trying to downplay the seriousness of the multiple bites, but I'm wondering if this dog could have lived out his life in that home if the management had never faltered. Crated 100% of the time around guests, instead of letting their guard down?

I know with my child-unfriendly GSD, I accepted the fact that he'd never be around them, period. Why he hated them I'll never know, since he wasn't my puppy to raise. Maybe another owner would have trained him to like them? Or tried and failed? My choice was to keep them well separated and it worked.
 
#124 ·
Definitely, Dog 101: Never Ignore Warning Signs! But beyond that, there should be a more stringently enforced management protocol. To be otherwise is very careless, and unacceptable. Say you have a peanut allergy: you're going to be very vigilant not to ever expose yourself to that risk, ever. This same dedicated effort has to be applied to dogs that pose a bite risk. They can't be given an opportunity like this, to see if they might have changed. They need to be accepted for what they are, and managed unconditionally, for the rest of their days. Some people aren't going to want to do that, but they need to face that fact before these situations present themselves.
 
#126 · (Edited)
blanket this dog has a long history of nipping and biting kids that come play
in that other instance yes gwen said it the dog gave clear warnings
it was a snap and she walked away
had she savaged the girls face we would not be talking about it
i would be first on the list to say put her down
but the girl was out of line and the dog felt the need to discipline that kid for whatever misguided reason she did it HAD the child clearly respected the dogs space it would not have happened

in this case the owners messed up but this was not a bite and release this was a sustained attack
on a child no less
and this dog has a long history of 'nipping' kids in the home

and i read the comments for gosh sake everyone is saying this is protectiveness??

protectiveness! and it is no wonder this breed is in the shape it is in
poor dog was just protecting the grandchildren from what? a child molester or abuser??
no the dog was protecting against a non-threat
another child
had the owner not intervened it may well have been a headline :(

eta more than anything i am distraught that our breed is being represented by these unstable nervy dogs that feel the need to protect against little kids
in all my shepherd owning days my dogs were able to discern a threat from a non threat and react accordingly
when going to the vet the vet exclaims how different my dogs were than other sheps who often need muzzled due to human aggressiveness
that is not protectiveness when you are at a vet clinic and the dog bites the techs or the vets
 
#127 ·
No, you're missing my point. My point was that there are people out there who think this dog is worth saving and are willing to make a commitment to assure that this attack doesn't repeat itself. And what people call 'protective' means nothing to me, since I wasn't there to see what happened, how could I even begin to assume to know what motivated the dog? I just think it's unfair of you to say that because you wouldn't take this dog, that nobody else should either.
 
#130 ·
I just think it's unfair of you to say that because you wouldn't take this dog, that nobody else should either.
Please get real. I've had rescue dogs for over 25 years. Many people won't take rescue dogs, of those of us that do, probably half or more of those have kids. Ok out of those left how many want shepherds and have shepherd experience? I am one of few rescue homes with grown kids and shepherd experience. I wouldn't take that dog! There are so many good stable shepherds needing rescue. Maybe they have been abused, or starved, just neglected, or are old? Whatever the case, they deserve homes too. I can put my time and energy and money into saving several shepherds that need saving, or I can focus it all on one dog that will have to always be managed, muzzled or locked up. There are a very few special people that will and I'd venture to say they are probably already full.
 
#128 ·
if i am not mistaken that rescue was not given full disclosure or if they were they arent putting it out there on their page because there is nothing about ongoing aggression towards kids

i got your point just fine you are confused as to the differences between the two cases

So while I would not put it the way MBD did, I do think different types of bites/attacks and aggressive behaviors justify the different responses.

exactly this
 
#129 ·
OP said, as you highlighted, that the dog had nipped at a couple of kids previously. That action lead to the dog being rehomed in the first place. Which was an excellent call, BTW. So while I agree with you that this was an outright vicious attack, I am confused as to why you'd deny the dog a chance to live its life out if someone can step up and care for this dog properly? I see that there is quite a difference in severity, but I don't see how you're able to dictate what someone else is capable of.
 
#131 ·
bb you do realize i am not in control of this situation correct?
the owner has already made the choice
whether or not it winds up a disaster for all remains to be seen
but i fail to see why you are so angry at me about this :shrug:

the fact is all dog bites differ and how we should respond to them differs
 
#132 ·
Oh sigh. Why are you quoting me when that was a comment that was meant specifically for someone else? Eavesdropper, lol.

My whole issue here is that MBD was willing to take another problem GSD - but won't extent the same courtesy to someone else. And not just 'anybody else' but a GSD rescue, and also having someone involved who actually knows this dog. How is that hard to understand?

ETA: I'm not angry at you, it's just that I was so in your corner with the other dog, and now it feels like I'm talking to another member, one of the PTS crowd.
 
#133 ·
again there is a major difference between the two incidents

your argument is specious because you are not taking that into account

leerburg apparently has a bite assessment tool to determine how severe a bite or attack actually is or was which might be of use to you

the dog in this thread is a fearful nut job beyond mere handling issues
you can see that in the pic on the fb page

and if you cant understand that all bite cases are different and humans should respond to them differently then i cant help you no matter how much i type
you are on your own
 
#134 ·
I'll try once more: look at dog aggression as a whole, in a pyramid formation. On the bottom there's the zero-tolerance approach, where the outcome is always PTS no matter the cause or the circumstances. We're both somewhere near the top, since we both agree that some issues can be worked with. You have to allow for room at the top. There will be others who'll want to rehabilitate dogs that we personally aren't going to want to work with. You can't just lop the top off the pyramid where you yourself feel comfortable.
 
#135 · (Edited)
Eavesdropper again. We all have our own line in the sand. I think both dogs that bit kids should be put down. However I am helping with some former OAS dogs that will likely never be able to be placed into a home, they are so damaged. I think you were one of the people in another thread who said they would never take an Akita because they are too aggressive or maybe it was pit bulls? If so that is your line in the sand. If that wasn't you, I'm sure somewhere else you have your own line in the sand.
 
#136 · (Edited)
I just said I wasn't at the top, lol! So yeah, there's my line in the sand. And no, it wasn't me who mentioned other breeds, but I'll only ever have GSDs - my own personal preference.

ETA: maybe I'm not being clear, but the pyramid isn't a reflection on the different breeds of dogs in general, and what they bring to the table - it's a critical look at every individual, and deciding on what the dog's fate will be, after their aggressive acts.
 
#138 · (Edited)
Do you know why I think THIS dog should be put down? It is because THIS dog did something that IS NOT normal behavior for a GSD. A bite can be normal behavior. Several bites can be normal if we are talking about a serious threat, that is fighting back. But several bites on a seven year old kid is NOT normal behavior.

This is not Cesar 9-1-1. This is a dog that is not wired right. No amount of training and leadership is going to make this dog a safe pet. Not in ANY house. The dog CAN be 100% managed for the rest of its life, with absolutely no guaranties that the dog will not do something to its care-giver at some point.

The dog has already made a bloody blotch on the reputation of the breed. How many bloody blotches are required before someone has the brains and the conscience to do what is right?

If this dog does do something really foul again, I hope the owners SUE the pants off of the rescue and put them out of business. People need to learn that we CANNOT save them all. We SHOULD NOT save them all. Some really should be put down.

There has to be consequences to actions. The problem is, that a dog that is startled and bites once, whose owners realize they are up over their heads -- they will try to give up their dog, and the fact that THIS dog KILLED/SERIOUSLY INJURED someone again will mean that rescues everywhere will not touch a dog with ANY bite history.

It seems like a dumb move to take on this dog. And it will probably have repercussions beyond this dog and its victims.
 
#139 ·
I'm saying kids are unpredictable, so we have to try to teach our dogs to live with that and a good stable dog will not be phased by kids.

I know now a days kids aren't expected to learn consequences of thinking they can ignore basic safety rules but that doesn't make it right
Rolling eyes.... Its not kids now a days its kids now and forever... Or don't you remember that far back? I do and that is a long long time ago! I've got two wonderful grown kids who are awesome. College, good jobs great grades in school never a bad word about either of them. Taught to be respectful to kids, animals, etc. Didn't stop my kid from teasing our goat when we had our back turned. She still has the scar on her leg today where the goat stuck its horn up her shorts and taught her exactly why I said don't tease the animals.

I've got a few scars like that myself. I didn't always listen when I was a kid either. Heck a goose taught me good to never get to close to a mama's babies.
 
#141 ·
No it's not the kids now a days, it's the parents!!! Helicoptering around and looking to blame someone, make someone pay if their kid gets hurt.

Don't tell me we as a society haven't gone off the deep end about nothing ever bad should ever happen to kids no matter what. Just look at liability insurance for kid related services or products and lawsuits that arise. It's because we can no longer accept that sometimes bad things will happen to kids, accidents. The last company I worked for wanted to put a day care center in for the working moms. After looking into the costs of liability and regulations they said not just no, but HECK no. It wasn't worth it.

If a kid runs up and jumps on my dogs back and my dog bites once and tries to get away I shouldn't be responsible for the bite and my dog should not be put to sleep!

I'm sick and tired of parents foisting off their responsibility onto society.

You can roll your eyes all you want but it only takes a few steps back, a long view and the pattern is beyond clear.

I'm saying kids are unpredictable, so we have to try to teach our dogs to live with that and a good stable dog will not be phased by kids.



Rolling eyes.... Its not kids now a days its kids now and forever... Or don't you remember that far back? I do and that is a long long time ago! I've got two wonderful grown kids who are awesome. College, good jobs great grades in school never a bad word about either of them. Taught to be respectful to kids, animals, etc. Didn't stop my kid from teasing our goat when we had our back turned. She still has the scar on her leg today where the goat stuck its horn up her shorts and taught her exactly why I said don't tease the animals.

I've got a few scars like that myself. I didn't always listen when I was a kid either. Heck a goose taught me good to never get to close to a mama's babies.
 
#142 ·
Aww gee, thanks! :) There's no room for emotions in a good debate, IMO. In fact, they usually just get in the way - I know I have to leave threads when they devolve into ridiculousness. And of course, I delete the things I type in anger. Most of the time, lol!

For the record, I've already said that having bitten in multiple areas, I'd not want to work with this dog. I like good single snaps myself, one is more than enough for me. But I'm also willing to let this dog live, so long as he goes to the right home. And I did read the personal endorsement from the woman who knows this dog and I think that if the dog was what we'd all unanimously consider a canine psycho, he be PTS already.
 
#144 ·
My dogs are great with kids in general but you better bet that the kids in my home know what they can and can't do to a dog. I better NEVER see one of them tease any animal. They know how I feel about it and just don't do it. My niece as young as three chose to "train" the dogs. I would give her treats and she would spend hours with them. No pulling of ears, face, tail,etc. and God help them if we go to the zoo and they even look like they are going to chase a goose, I hate kids that chase the geese and the parents that laugh at it. They aren't going to be laughing when that goose bites them. It has to start when growing up, if we ever got nipped at my mom would always ask us what we did for that to happen? My mom never blamed our dogs for anything and looking back she was right. Not that we teased animals, that wasn't allowed, but things like the dog was sleeping and we stepped on their tail kinda stuff. And if I didn't have kids coming and going in my household I would have no issues taking the dog in this thread.
 
#145 ·
I just want to say if he can find a kid-free home, then why not. I have two dogs that have low tolerance with kids. One gets too excited from all their movement and noises and will start to hump them and I would not have known this from the shelter's description of "not good with crawling babies". The other one who's in her 4th and last home and is 13 yrs old and will absolutely bite a kid in the face if they don't know how to read her warning signals or respect her space. She was locked up at paws at 6 months old and was returned for biting a kid. How severe the bite was, no one knows. Her home after that was a single adult and then after that she was chained up in the backyard for many years with kids coming and going and now her home is with me - still kid-free.

Even though my first thought of a dog biting a kid would be euthanasia, we really don't know the situation. I have watched this kid-biter interact with kids. She's fine until her warning signs (lots of lip licking, head pulling back, eyes widening, head turning, finally showing her teeth) are ignored and they continue to hug her around the head and talk to her face to face. She's a great guard dog at 60lbs. Totally fearless about confronting strangers and very territorial. She's a great house dog too - low energy, quiet, low maintenance, not demanding, affectionate, and mellow.
 
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