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Can he be placed?

18K views 174 replies 32 participants last post by  my boy diesel 
#1 · (Edited)
Unhappy Brutus Buckeye

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Hi. I just joined yesterday. Unfortunately we have a problem with our beloved Brutus Buckeye. He badly bit a child who was playing with our two granddaughters in our house. Everything worked out fine with the child, her mom and her grandparents. One attitude is that he needs to be put down. Another (mine) is that surely there is a place for him with someone else in the right environment. Help.


Thanks for the responses. Here is more background. Brutus had been a problem at his prior residence as he had nipped at a couple of kids (always around the granddaughters) so I guess he was showing his protectiveness. We now have him at our house 95 percent of the time and we just moved to be close to the grandkids. The child he bit a few days ago was new to him. There was a puncture of the forearm, a gash in the calf and a bite in the back that showed all four canine teeth in action. Fortunately he released, probably when I intervened. He is now four and we got him when he was two. He had training at about one year old but I don't know what kind.
 
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#34 ·
Dogs biting people who are on your property without being invited, is a little different than a seven year old kid playing with your grand daughters being attacked. It is different. But, how to 5-8 year olds break into a house.

Ok, I guess I did my first home invasion when I was about four and went through the milk chute. Remember those. Yeah, we were brats living in the city too.

Ohio has a provision in their law for dogs that are being teased.
 
#36 ·
The OP first posted in visitor messages in 'public profile', he/she was trying to figure out how to utilize this forum. But the notes left there by the OP shed more light on the situation and IMO this dog *probably* should be PTS.

Chevalrouge wrote:

Help. We have a GSD which we took control of at age two. He now is four. At his prior residence he was a bit of a problem and snapped at people a few times. We got him calmed down and think that part of the problem was impatience. He has always barked like crazy at anything that moves outside. Six days ago he badly bit a neighbor girl, age 7, who was playing with our grandchildren in our house. He is now in quarantine and is scheduled to be put down in four days. I have been told that a good rescue center can place a dog like this with the right people who know how to handle him. I want to save him but the three other people closest to him and to me say they cannot live with the fear that he might do it again, no matter where or with whom he is. I'm torn up about it but want to respect their feelings. What is the best advice you guys can give me?
 
#37 ·
I don't blame you for saying PTS, or anyone else who has. I can't, because I'm not comfortable making that kind of a statement without having seen the dog - but that's my own personal view, nothing more. I can say that just finding a home without children might not be good enough, because this was a very bad incident and it might be a reflection on much more than just this scenario involving a child. The dog might have serious health issues and this is just the beginning.
 
#38 ·
He'd probably have to go to a place like Best Friends Sanctuary in Utah who I know keeps dogs like this, try to rehab if possible or keep them there for the rest of their life (like some of M. Vick's pitties that could not be re-habbed). I don't know how or if they take owner surrenders though?

Speculative but it sounds like warning signs were being dismissed or minimized?

I was bit by a WL/Pet Line dog last summer, all four canines left marks encompassing about 2/3s of the circumference of my calf, he did only bite once though :eek:. Totally unprovoked I was just standing there talking with the owner who had him on leash.

She went into denial, 'Oh he thought he was biting the other dog', 'He didn't mean it'.

I told her point blank that her dog did mean it and she needed to get with a very good trainer immediately. My guess is she won't and he'll end up like this dog.......
 
#39 ·
thing is so called sanctuarys can only hold so many "dogs like this" before they are overcrowded and basically hoarding
google olympic animal sanctuary for more info on that
if i had a biting dog that attacked people i would send it to the rainbow bridge myself
before placing it in a "sanctuary"
 
#41 ·
Sad situation. The rescue I volunteer at took several of those dogs. Horrible Horrible thing. I wish they would prosecute the guy! :(

I did say PTS.

I did because it is IMPOSSIBLE to rehome the dog safely or responsibly. And it sounds like the owners of the dog are not willing to, or are afraid to keep and manage the dog ]
This selzer :thumbup: It is a kindness to the dog sometimes to PTS.
 
#40 ·
As the OP has illustrated for us, getting a dog with a bite history, is not always respected by the new owners. They hear the tale, and they are careful with the dog until they think the dog is rehabilitated. Or they do not believe that it was as bad as they said, soon "attack", becomes "bite", and bite becomes "nip."

And when that family has grandchildren on the way, or are expecting to have a baby, or need to move because of a job, and do not want to bring the dog along, they have not actually witnessed what has happened, and the retelling to the new owners, or the shelter, or the rescue is so watered down or not mentioned at all, that this dog most likely will be placed in a situation around children again.

Just disclosing the facts, isn't enough. I read through Wickipaedia's list of dog-related deaths for 2013, and it is amazing how many of those dogs that KILLED someone actually had some pretty severe previous incidents. Severe, like this incident.

I might be able to manage this dog at my place. If it was ok with me. I could just never go on vacation, and keep the dog kenneled or at home. I might make that choice if I were the OP. But, it would be with the idea that I will never, ever rehome the dog to anyone. Really though, dogs in our lives are here to be enjoyed, we enjoy them, and they enjoy us. This is not why we have pets, to keep them shut away, and to ensure that the dog is euthanized in the event of our death.

If the next victim this dog manages to attack is permanently maimed, or killed, then how will the OP feel? How would any of us that have even suggested that keeping the dog and managing it so that it will never meet another child feel? I think that it is a pretty large load for anyone to carry, a dog that attacks a seven year old girl who is playing with the granddaughters.
 
#43 ·
MBD FYI.

That was on the 13th so sounds like he's scheduled to be euth'd Monday.

From the OP 'public profile' vistor message area:

Help. We have a GSD which we took control of at age two. He now is four. At his prior residence he was a bit of a problem and snapped at people a few times. We got him calmed down and think that part of the problem was impatience. He has always barked like crazy at anything that moves outside. Six days ago he badly bit a neighbor girl, age 7, who was playing with our grandchildren in our house. He is now in quarantine and is scheduled to be put down in four days. I have been told that a good rescue center can place a dog like this with the right people who know how to handle him. I want to save him but the three other people closest to him and to me say they cannot live with the fear that he might do it again, no matter where or with whom he is. I'm torn up about it but want to respect their feelings. What is the best advice you guys can give me?
 
#48 ·
Why do you think he's a troll?

I put myself in the guy's shoes, and I might seek out a forum and when I did not hear what I was hoping to hear, I might not go back there. He doesn't know us, has nothing vested in us. He probably googled GSD rescues and came across our site by accident. I don't know why we shouldn't believe the story.
 
#51 ·
Midnite was really close to being put to sleep. He was brought to the shelter because he nipped the kids and they had a baby on the way. He also redirected on me and got my leg pretty good. He didn't have any manners and no kind of training, that was obvious. I worked with him myself for a long time and then with training. I look at him and think how sad it would have been for him to be destroyed. He adores kids and is a completely different dog. I know from experience that the same dog can be completely different in a different house . All Midnite required was time, patience, and training.
 
#52 ·
This dog, that hasn't only "nipped at children" but has attacked a little girl pretty badly, after "nipping at children" before in their possession, and then having some problems before they got the dog.

Sure the dog may be different in another home. But you know what, most experienced dog people do not necessarily want a project that might get them sued. And how do you find the one who is in-between dogs, and has the experience and energy to take this one on?

The dog cannot go to just anyone. I absolutely hate arguing in favor of putting a dog down. Hate it. If this dog bit one time, if it stopped attacking on its own, if the kid jumped or fell on it, maybe I would think differently.

The people close to this dog do not want this to happen again. Wherever the dog might be. They think it will. Sometimes the unkind thing is to hold out hope for people when there really is none.
 
#59 · (Edited)
Not only a long shot but rhetorical in a 'thinking out loud but not really going to happen' way is what I meant. It sounds like the dog will be euth'd Monday.

However, unless YOU are a person who is part of Best Friends Sanctuary and empowered to make decisions on their behalf, what you say below is also very, very.....rhetorical.

:rolleyes:
 
#58 ·
This was last year. I bolded some stuff. 31 deaths.
Fatal dog attacks in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Fatalities reported in 2013

Date Category of Dog Victim's name Victim's age Circumstances

January 8 Pit bull Betty Ann Chapman Todd 65 years Emergency Medical Technicians found the victim with dog bites to neck, head, and face, and could not revive her. According to the owners, the victim had visited the house on several occasions and the dog had never shown aggressiveness towards her.[461] Later, investigators discovered that the dog had a history of violence and had killed a Siberian Husky that it lived with. Four months prior to the attack on Ms Todd, the owners had attempted to reduce the dog's aggression by neutering it.[462]

January 19 Pit bull Christian Gormanous 4 years Climbed over a fence and got too close to the neighbor's tethered dog.[463]

February 8 Pit bull Elsie Grace 91 years Found dead with dog bites in motel room that she shared with her son and the two dogs. Autopsy results to determine if she died before or after being bitten are pending.[464]

February 16 Pit bull Isaiah Aguilar 2 years Killed in a neighbor's yard by a dog tied up in the yard.[465]

March 2 Pit bull Ryan Maxwell 7 years Killed by a dog that was kept chained in the back yard of a home he was visiting. The dog may have been let off the chain by the boy or may have broken free before the attack.[466][467] The dog's owners had been cited previously for letting their dogs run loose. Officers had also been called to their house on reports that dogs were not being fed. Although no criminal charges were filed in relation to this dog attack, one of the owners, Jereme Carter, is now in jail on murder charges from an unrelated case.[468]

March 6 Pit bull (2) Daxton Borchardt 14 Months Killed by his babysitter's two dogs at the babysitter's residence. The babysitter was also injured but survived.[469]

March 27 Pit bull & Pit bull-mix (7) Monica Renee Laminack 21 months Killed by dogs belonging to her mother's boyfriend.[470] An autopsy confirmed that the child died of injuries consistent with a dog attack.[471] The child's mother was subsequently charged with Cruelty to Children in the Second Degree.[472]

April 7 Pit bull Mix (2) or Bulldogs Tyler Jett 7 years Attacked while riding his bike by his neighbor's two dogs and died 5 days later. The owner a week prior had received a citation for allowing his aggressive dogs loose and is currently facing criminally negligent manslaughter charges. Some sources identify the two dogs as "pit bull mixes";[473][474] other reports identified them as a "brindle bulldog" and an "Alapaha blue blood bulldog".[475][476] Some articles referred to them as both "pit bull mixes" and "bull dogs" within the same article.[477] Photos of the dogs exist.[478]

April 11 Pit bull - Mastiff mix [479] Claudia Gallardo 38 years A woman was killed after being attacked by a dog that has terrorized the neighborhood for months, according to authorities and residents.[480][481] The dog, reported to be a female pit bull/mastiff mix, was also reported to have attacked neighbors in the past.[479] Claudia Gallardo was killed after jumping into the fenced yard where the dog was kept.[479]

April 22 American Staffordshire Terrier (Pit Bull)[482] Jordyn Arndt 4 years Four year old Jordyn Arndt, was mauled by a pit bull at her babysitter’s home. The owner of the dog, 24-year old Jana Marie Wright, was supposed to be babysitting Jordyn and has been charged with multiple felonies punishable with up to 35 years in prison.[483][484] Neighbors say that they had previously filed several complaints about the dog.[483] The babysitter had a history of arrest on drug-related and child-neglect charges.[485]

April 24 American Staffordshire Terrier mix (Pit Bull mix) Beau Rutledge 2 years The boy was killed while the mother stepped away to use the restroom. The dog was 8-years-old and neighbors said they had never thought it was aggressive.[486][487][488][489]

April 30 German Shepherd Rachael Honabarger 35 years The attack happened at home involving a male dog registered to her husband. The dog was 100-150 lbs and 3 years old. One neighbor said that the dog has been aggressive and guarded the house.[490] News sources reported that she died four days after the attack; however, the date given in her obituary was 2 days after the attack.[491]

May 8 4 Pit bulls or Feral dogs (Mixed breed dogs with "possible 'pit bull' influence")[492][493] Carlton Freeman 80 years Freeman, a bi-lateral amputee at the knees, was driving in his wheelchair when he was attacked by a pack of four dogs that neighbors said had been roaming the neighborhood on-and-off for months. He tried to fight the dogs, but was unable to and was pulled from his wheelchair. The incident happened on May 8, and Freeman died on May 12. The coroner says he had lacerations and bites “from his legs to the top of his head." Initial reports said that three of the dogs belonged to a woman who is Freeman's neighbor and relative.[494][495][496] The Sheriff's Office later announced that the four dogs were feral and did not belong to anyone.[497] Sheriff's reports described the dogs as "brown dogs" and Animal Control claimed that they were mixed breed "with possible 'pit bull' influence."[493] However, multiple news sources stated that they were pit bulls. Photos of three of the dogs are available.[493] One of the four dogs has not yet been found.[498]

May 9 Pack of four free-ranging dogs: Pit bulls[499] Pamela Marie Devitt 63 years The woman was walking near her home when she was attacked by a pack of dogs. DNA results later confirmed that four of the eight dogs owned by a local man had been involved in the attack.[499] Local residents reported that the area repeatedly has problems with packs of dogs running loose. The owner of the dogs was charged with second degree murder for the attack. He was also charged with assault with a deadly weapon for a previous incident in which his dogs attacked a horse and rider and he threw a stone at the rider. He also faced several charged related to a marijuana growing operation he was running.[499] The dogs had been involved in several other attacks for which the owner was cited, and he had also been cited for failing to vaccinate, license, spay, neuter or microchip the dogs.[500] He was also in violation of the legal limit in that jurisdiction of owning no more than 3 dogs. In 2006 he had had four other dogs confiscated and destroyed after they attacked emus.[501] [502][503][504][505]

June 9 Bullmastiff[506] Ayden Evans[507] 5 years Killed inside the home of family friends near Jessieville, Arkansas where he had been staying for two weeks because his family's home in Moore, Oklahoma had been destroyed by tornados. After the child had started loudly crying, the 150 lb. dog came running out of a back room and attacked him. The dogs owner stopped the attack, but not before the boy had received serious wounds to the neck and face. He was rushed to a hospital in Hot Springs, AR where he was declared dead. The dog ran away, so authorities began trying to find it and euthanize it. Investigators declined to say just yet whether or not the owners would face any charges.[508][509]

June 17 Pit Bull mix Nephi Selu 6 years The boy was attempting to ride the dog "like a horse" when he was bitten a single time on the top of the head.[510] The two-year-old, un-neutered male dog had been acquired as a guard dog[510] and was kept in the backyard of the family's home.[511] After the bite, the family did not think he had been seriously injured and expected him to be fine "after a couple of stitches."[510] He was brought to the hospital 2 1/2 hours after being bitten and died two hours later.[510] The dog had up-to-date rabies shots and was properly licensed.[512]

June 25 Pit bull mix Arianna Jolee Merrbach 5 years Killed after walking up to a chained dog that belonged to her aunt.[513] The dog had been kept on a chain in violation of the county's laws against prolonged tethering, and animal cruelty charges were being considered against the owner.[514]

July 1 Labrador Retriever mix[515]
or "large, longer haired, black" Mixed breed[516]
or Mastiff-Rottweiler mix[517]
Linda Oliver 63 years She was killed by a dog that she had taken in as a stray. The incident occurred while she was attempting to stop it from attacking her other "small brown wiener dog."[518] September 15 Husky-Mix Jordan Reed 5 years Jordan was found dead after being mauled by one or more loose dogs. "[519]

September 22 "Mixed breed pit bull Daniel "Doe" 2 years Daniel was mauled by 3 mix-pit bulls at his babysitter’s home. "[520]
September 23 "Mixed breed pit bull"[521] Samuel Eli Zamudio 2 years Killed by up to five dogs that belonged to his grandmother, in the back yard of her house. Authorities do not know how the boy ended up in the yard with the dogs, and occupants of the house said they heard no screams or other noises, but the boy was found dead with bite marks to his face and neck. Neighbors had complained to authorities about the noise and "stench from the yard" where the dogs were kept. A photo of one of the dogs is available.[521] The boy's grandmother and uncle were later arrested in Colton, California.[522][523]

September 27 Pit bull Jordan Ryan 5 years The boy was unsupervised at a family friend's house and entered a backyard pen where the dog was kept. The dog had been acquired 6 weeks earlier.[524]

November 1 Pit bull Terry Douglass 56 years Her dog, Boosie, which she originally acquired for protection[525] and had raised from a puppy. It had previously attacked a family member and Douglass, who carried a large facial scar as a result. Boosie had been taken away by authorities, but Douglass had fought to have Boosie back, and he had recently been returned to her apartment in Balitimore, MD. Officers speculated Douglass, a handicapped woman, may have fallen on the dog, and described the scene as "horrific".[526]

November 4 Pit bulls Katherine Atkins 25 years Went out to the kennel behind their home in Kernersville, NC to feed the dogs as usual, but this time they attacked. They belonged to her boyfriend. The dogs were euthanized and will be given a necropsy for clues as to why they attacked.[527]

November 5 Pit bulls Nga Woodhead 65 years On her daily walk about a mile from her home in Spanaway, Washington. The dogs had escaped from a nearby property and attacked from the rear. She fought the dogs with her umbrella and called her husband. A passerby tried to help. He told her husband the location, who called 911.Another neighbor gave the passerby a gun and he shot one, which fled. Police arrived and shot them, and an ambulance took her to the hospital. Her arm was especially badly mauled ("shredded"). Almost a week later, when she was sitting in the hospital waiting for her discharge paperwork, she died of a heart attack thought to be brought on by “extremity contusions, lacerations and fractures due to dog bites”. The Sheriff recommended the county prosecutor file charges, but it was not yet clear whether they would.[528]

November 8 Pit bull(s) Levi Watson 4 years Visiting a home in White County, Arkansas. The boy "managed to get out of the home" and "enter a fenced-in area where three pit bulls were being held."[529] Emergency crews brought him to the hospital where he died. At press time, police were investigating which of three pit bulls were responsible; what the fate of the dogs, which were taken into custody, would be; and whether any charges would be filed. The owner was cooperating with the investigation.[530]

November 21 Pit bull/Bull Mastiff mix; Rat Terrier Joan Kappen 75 years Hot Springs Villiage, Arkansas[531] The owner of the 87-pound dog said it would frequently "bite out of fear." It had previously bitten an intoxicated family member in the face, bitten a neighbor in the face, and bitten its owner on the arm and leg. The attack occurred after the dogs were let outside unsupervised, off-leash in an unfenced yard.

December 7 Pit bulls (2) Jah'Niyah White 2 years South Side, Chicago [532] December 10 Shiba Inu (2) Mia Gibson 3 months Attack occurred in the Columbus, Ohio home when the parents were sleeping. Mia was a premature baby who had only come home from the hospital Thanksgiving.[533]

December 13 Pit bull Michal Nelson 41 years Her own dog. She had gone outside, where the dog was kept chained up in a pen, to break ice on the dog's water bowl, when it attacked. Her brother found her body and shot the dog. Her eleven other dogs were taken away by authorities.[534]

December 28 Boxer Tom J. Vick 64 years Vick and his wife tried to break up a fight at their home in Bullhead City, AZ between their two dogs when one of them turned on them. He died soon after arriving at the local hospital; she survived and was flown to a Las Vegas, NV hospital.[535]

The point is, that in many of these cases, the dogs have a history of aggression, and these sort of tragedies, very uncommon need to be prevented all the same.
 
#61 ·
SMH.

You have a lot more confidence then me is all I can say. I'd never speak for an organization that I'm not a member of based on having 'contacted them before'...but that's just me.

Thank you for clarifying that you aren't in a position of authority or member of their organization.

nope but i have contacted them before
i feel quite confident therefore in my comment
 
#62 ·
I contacted Best Friends once to check whether they would take a dog with a single bite that happened in the heat of a dog fight. They said they cannot because of liability issues. If the dog were to bite one of their staff and they got sued, they could close their business.

There were some very big bucks in donations involved with the Vick's dogs that gave them the incentive to help. And the publicity of them helping with the rehab surely brought in long term financial support.

But no, they would not take in everyday Joe's dog with a bite history. They offered verbal advice to the owners.
 
#64 ·
BF does not get involved if there is no publicity involved or headlines to be made
which is why the vick dogs went there
the vick dogs were another matter anyway
former fighting dogs have dog to dog aggression not dog to human aggression
i mean they could have both but i am guessing primarily dog to dog
not a lot of risk to humans there
rebel your experience was similar to mine
i contacted them a few times actually and only once did they reply and advise euth for the dog in question
 
#67 ·
Best Friends will take behavioral cases that have been internally evaluated by trusted professionals in their established shelter/rescue network. They will not take owner surrenders or referrals from outside parties.

I have a great deal of empathy and respect for their position. Opening yourself to taking owner surrenders means inviting a ton of drama and time-sucking hassle. It has nothing to do with publicity, headlines, or money.
 
#70 ·
In general (not about best friends in particular).....

There are ways around the drama. If someone surrenders a dog they sign a form relieving them of legal ownership. They aren't invited to follow up nor responded to should they try to follow up on the dog.

I know pulling from shelters avoids having to deal with those steps but that doesn't mean it couldn't be done through rescues as well.

Lots of dogs are owner surrenders at shelters and the people fill out some paper work, walk away and never go back or follow up......
 
#68 ·
Guys I meant it in the most off the cuff way when I first brought it up as some were wondering about if there were any way to save the dog. Geeze.

I am very well aware that with ANY rescue a dog with a bite history is a HUGE longshot in being taken in and rehabbed whether from a shelter or owner.

I fostered a dog (JRT) that turned out to be a child biter and was euth'd in the end because we just didn't have any safe options.

So been there, been through it, done that and it was NOT a happy thing.
 
#72 ·
If you've ever been stupid enough to provoke a dog to bite, or been cautious enough to avoid provoking a dog that's giving every sign it's more than willing to bite (I've been both) then you'll know that a "bite history" encompasses many different situations leading to a bite.

For a dog to air snap or quickly pinch its teeth on you, this is a sure warning from the dog, and depending on your own feelings about it, this can be an excellent learning opportunity for both of you. Don't push the dog that far, don't let the dog determine the rules, or whatever.

But when a dog had no reservations about giving its all, going after you multiples times, leaving massive wounds then this isn't what I'd call a dog that's willing to compromise, or a dog that I'd want to work with. Because IME the dogs that have a bite history usually have extenuating circumstances that make it easy to see why it happened. But repeatedly going back to attack and attack again is so far from 'normal' that I'd definitely think there was something seriously wrong with it. This would be an awfully hard sell, and saying "bite history" in the typical sense would be denying how bad it truly is. When I think "bite history" I don't tend to think about savage attacks.
 
#73 ·
I've never intentionally provoked a bite....:p

I have been bitten, unprovoked twice. One was a kuvasz and the other a mess of a pet line/WL GSD.

I was not touching or interacting with either of the dogs at the time and both times the owner was right there.

The kuvasz could have done some real damage if he wanted 130 pounds of lean raw fed unaltered male. He just gave me a quick hard nip in the stomach, due to clothing and my belt he did not break skin and it was just one bite.

The GSD got me on my calf, broke skin through jeans, four canine marks but not punctures, open mouth bite encompassing about 2/3 s of my calf. He bit and released. Had I not had jeans on it probably would have been slight puncture wounds.

IMO both these dogs are potentially dangerous as the bites were unprovoked. I told both owners they had better take theses incidents seriously. The kuvasz owner kind of got it and now takes more precautions and the GSD owner/rescuer went into total denial.
 
#74 ·
Unless you know the dogs' owners very well, you'll never know if those bites were honestly unprovoked or not. They could be very badly conditioned to "protect" their owners, and just being close enough was enough to rile them up. If the owners are taking them out in public without muzzles, they're idiots. Either that, or you're nothing at all like your screen persona, lmao!
 
#75 ·
The GSD was a recent rescue, bad history, but was mostly neglect. He was on leash, owner was clueless, never owned a dog like that before. None of her other dogs (of which there were 4) had a shred of obedience.

I had met the kuvasz before and fed him. Had given him a food just a Few moments before. Door to back yard was open, I was standing far away from the door, dog was between me and the door. Owner was always a bit cautious with him, he was sort of 'full of himself'. I think he just was trying to show me who was 'boss'.

In both cases I was standing still, hands still, having normal conversation with the owners and not interacting with the dogs.

I am exposed to more dogs then the average person. ;)

It's my personal experience that the majority of dogs that have some sort of aggression issue had been showing signs that they would long before a serious bite occurred.
 
#76 ·
I totally agree with you, and I'm certain that any dog that's gone so far as to bite someone had been showing signs of their potential long before the bites happen. Whether or not their owners can recognize it makes all the difference in the world. But this is where management and muzzles come into play. If you can't manage a dog like this, do the dog a favor a find someone who can. "Oops, sorry!" isn't management.
 
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