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generic question about personal space and biting

23K views 211 replies 37 participants last post by  brembo 
#1 ·
Because of the kid being bitten in the face thread, I am wondering about a topic that was a thread a while back about personal space.

I know that Babs does not like dogs coming right up into her face, she will snap at them -- she has done this twice with strange dogs, and then with the puppy (1 year old Karma) on Sunday. She never did connect and the two snaps at the puppy were really wimpy, not like the snap at the over-friendly Doberman a few years ago. I think she was just telling the offensive, forward dog, that they should get out of her space. With me, or the little girls, there is none of that going on. I invite her up into my space all the time, and I can hug her, put my face right into hers. No problem. And the vet can too.

I am wondering, if the dog sees a child that they live with as lower in the pack order than she is, might they choose to correct a child the way a dog corrects another dog? Or, if people respond to a dog's increasing displays of discomfort/aggression by correcting the child and making what the dog wants to happen, happen, instead of correcting the dog, will that encourage the dog in its method of limiting that sort of behavior?

My dogs LIKE to be in my face or for me to get into their face. Jenna is a face licker. Puppies, breathe on them and they will lick your face -- that's normal. Ninja jumps up on the dog house every day to get her hugs, and to lick my face. I lean back in my office chair and scooch up to Babs' easy chair, and she climbs on top of me and licks my face. I have never been afraid of being right in my dog's faces, and since I have had to give eye ointment, and clean ears, and look at teeth, I need for them to not bar me from their personal space.

And, while it is not normal, if I am in the vet's office, I expect my dogs to check out my demeaner and if I am not freaking out, then they should tolerate whatever the vet needs to do. So far, not a problem.

But I hear a lot of people saying that they do not allow people in their dog's faces. And I guess most people aren't trying to get right into my dog's face. I had one of my puppy buyers, reach over a fence and give one my dog's a kiss once, and I told her that she really shouldn't do that to a dog she doesn't know. But the dog was more startled and just allowed it.

Same with Cujo when the little kid ran up while I was paying the bill at the counter. The kid ran up behind and full body hugged him. He was too startled by it, to actually react, and it's not so much that he was a good dog, but his reaction was acceptable, and we dodged a bullet so to speak.

Another dog that is not accustomed to that from a stranger might have reacted differently I am hearing. So the question is, do you socialize the dog and familiarize them with hugs and people up in their faces, or is it more the dogs that have people doing this, and are displaying increasing discomfort with it, the ones that are more likely to lash out?

I mean, if we dig around in a dog's food dish, and take shtuff away from the dog, and mess with it and give it back, we can create food aggressive issues where there might not have been any. Can we also create problems by pushing a dog to accept everything from everybody as a part of socialization, and if the dog doesn't seem to like it, flood the dog. When if we had left well enough alone, the one or two incidents that might happen when someone the dog does not trust gets into the dog's face, the dog will be startled/surprised, but not actually aggress to the point of a bite.

I did have a puppy that I placed, that I would pick up (he was a cute booger), and bring him up to my face and he would bite my nose. Every time. You would think I would learn. He was 13 weeks old. I figured he just saw my face as a huge toy, and the nose was sticking out, and if he was lucky, he could make the whole thing make noise. I was not sorry to see that one go. I told the people, "he bites."

I guess I am just fascinated with this topic. Someone suggested I start a generic dog bites kid thread. I think I would rather discuss dogs' attitude toward their face area, or other spots like paws or ears if they are problematic for some dogs.
 
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#181 · (Edited)
Normally I don't go to see people with their doggy problem, but sometimes the situation requires. A month ago, in a midweek, I had a call from a lady who was ready to pay for my travel and whatever requires concerned about agressive behaviour of her male towards a small dog of her new neighbours. When I came, I was amazed, surprised, I don't know, or enjoyed in a professional sense every minute of my visit.
Many people and many trainers do not know how many owners live absolutely harmoneously with dominant dogs. By the following description someone of you may find the situation simply appaling.
It happened to be a family of four - a mid-aged husband, a bit younger wife, a daughter of 3 years old and a huge black German Shepherd male. When I came in there wasn't any barks, the dog didn't bother to get up from his personal couch, just yawned and turned his head away from me. The sitting room was small, and I asked if that is a room the family rests at TV in the evening. The lady said "Yes, because, you see, Jack is so big", the family a sort of enjoy themselves in a Buddha position on a soft carpet. When the husband leaves bedroom at night you know what for, the dog moves from the couch onto the couple's bed next to the wife, and the husband pulls another set of bedclothes to sleep on the dog's couch. She told me that and giggled. I asked about the dog's meals and food, she said it's time to feed him, invited me to the kitchen and suggested a drink. The dog, as he knew, heavily followed us. Then I saw a daughter, who just got up, and was feeling sleepy then, a tiny, very slim little girl. The dog was gobbling out of a huge bowl, growling loudly while he ate, and the little girl was crouching in front of him. I asked the mother if she's not afraid to let her daughter so close to the dog. The answer came from the daughter: "Jack doesn't like me too close, he likes me just watching". The next picture I saw of the dog with the child - dog on the carpet in the front room and the girl sitting on the top of him and scratching, and massaging, and grooming him, the dog moves and the girl has to sit on him again. I suggested to take him out to see what is there with that dog of their neighbours. The girl shouted "Jack, walky!", the huge male jumped up and got very agitated. When we went out the lead was in the girl's hand (?!) which she lost immediately, the dog rushed to the next door on the left and started to bark, trying to push his nose through the post slot. The whole thing seemed amused the girl tremendously, the woman was smiling and saying what a good friends they are, Jack and Linda, thanks God, they were made for each other. The neighbours weren't there, no sound of their dog, and we decided to take a walk in the park. The lead was in the hands of the 3 years old, but Jack looked back every time the lead streched, it seemed he knew lead manners well. I asked who was the trainer and the woman pointed at the girl (?!). I turned completely silent after that. All people swiftly gave way to a child with a big dog swagging side to side for the next pee, one man, who moved onto us, obliviously tried to ignore them had to jump onto a grass patch, sideways, because Jack growled at him in protection of his little companion. And it was like that until we reached the park and I left for the station.
The lady didn't give me any money for my travel, and I wouldn't have asked for. I was payed aplenty with experience, it still feeds my brain. I hope, this story will help you to answer your question about "space". Well, it was very uncivilized towards neighbours and pedestrians, but on overall, it depends on you, how generous you are about your personal space, because that British family have a very small semidetached, a tiny garden, still, they live happily with the monster whom they serve with love and devote their time.
 
#188 ·
Dexter is my third dog so far, and I'm not an expert. However, I am able to hug, kiss and handle all of my dogs whichever way I want without issues. I can take toys away any time and handle their food while they're eating. That doesn't mean that I terrorize them while they eat, but every once in a while I would walk by and pet them while they're eating or add food to the bowl.

I hand fed all of my pups in the beginning, which backfired with Dexter. At one point he decided that he would only eat if I hand fed him, so I stopped. :) You live and learn. I trust my dogs 100% and vice versa, thus they pretty much allow me to do anything. Dexter likes to be very close to me and snuggle. That's just his personality.

However, I'm a responsible dog owner and I don't want other people to replicate what I do and I keep a close eye on all interactions and reactions, even though my dogs are great with all people.

I had an incident similar to Seltzer's where I was paying at the petstore and didn't notice a young girl that had walked up to Dexter and hugged him. When I turned around he was busy licking her face. I explained to the mother that she shouldn't let her daughter walk up to random dogs to kiss and hug them, but she basically just said why, your dog is friendly. Sigh, it's people I can't deal with sometimes.....
 
#193 ·
taking crackers out of your mouth
That is the way to tell your dog who he is - a little puppy, belongs to "omega group" in the pack. I do mouthfeeding time to time and I always did. Actually works the best if you want to tell your dog that your cat is an equal pack member - put a cat on the table and mouthfeedfeed them both. And makes you to care about your dog/cat breath.
 
#197 ·
Ok :)

Maybe someone else will answer......

If you don't like how I do it. How do you teach your dogs to be bomb proof around people and kids? Everyone knows little kids dart about and will hug in an instant. You can try to teach kids to be responsible around dogs but ultimately if the kid doesn't listen and the dog bites, the dog will pay the price.

The knife thing is cute but don't think that trick would work to well in a kid home. :D
 
#198 ·
I think with dogs and kids you can only teach so much, its natural some dogs are okay others arnt. Like shiggies, street dog, loves a good hug from anyone willing to give one up, im willing to bet since she was found eating garbage and half dead she did not have a happy happy social situation, but I have been preoccupied in petsmart only to turn around and see a toddler with her hand in shiggies mouth. No problems, no weirdness, I would not expect the same thing from dexter though who has the happy go lucky social life, he would be so nervous and freaked out by that,

Sent from Petguide.com Free App
 
#200 · (Edited)
I tend to think and I am and speaking of sound stable dogs without emontional issues. People who own GSD's or (Dogs in general) benefit from having a dog without personal space issues.

Never did the cracker thing myself but Rocky was grabby with treats before I worked with him. The cracker thing and the kisses and hugs is I believe very beneficial to people who have dogs that don't live with kids! It's a hidden benefit for idiot Petco parents!

All that stuff actually (crackers,hugging etc) actually conditions the dog to humans beings,in it's space.

A stable dog might not like being grabbed by a kid, but being handled is not something unique or unusual (for a dog use to being handled by his people)...such dogs take time to think and evaluate a given situation instead of instantly striking.

I don't live with kids and kids have petted my dog without issue (never been grabbed by a kid though!)

So I guess ironically enough...I see what those idiot Petco Parents are saying " what's the problem?? He's trained isn't he??:eek:
 
#199 ·
Ok wow this forum got really long, but I was interested in the original topic. I think in regards to the "people in your dog's face" thing, there are rules and then there is knowledge. Rules are what people teach to kids in bite prevention classes: don't run straight up to the dog, don't get in the dog's face, don't hover over the dog, don't make too much eye contact, etc. These are all really good things to know that will keep you safe, especially when approaching a strange dog.

However, with your own dogs you probably have a little more knowledge about them and such a cautious approach isn't necessary. I know when my dog is uncomfortable, and I know when she is comfortable. Based on past experiences, she loves people, cuddles, and kisses, but I'm also not going to take that for granted and not pay attention to her comfort level, especially in new situations or with new people.

As to your dog growling, I am really interested to hear more people's experiences with this. I think how you react in these situations is really important because while you obviously don't want to become subject to your dog or "let him get away with it," growling is also a really important form of communication that I appreciate. I would never want to punish my dog for growling because that wouldn't solve the emotional state that caused the growl, but it might teach the dog to skip that particular warning signal and start with a bite next time.
 
#201 ·
.

As to your dog growling, I am really interested to hear more people's experiences with this. I think how you react in these situations is really important because while you obviously don't want to become subject to your dog or "let him get away with it," growling is also a really important form of communication that I appreciate. I would never want to punish my dog for growling because that wouldn't solve the emotional state that caused the growl, but it might teach the dog to skip that particular warning signal and start with a bite next time.
This is exactly why I asked this, because I think the same way.

Maybe a new thread with just this question would be in order.
 
#209 ·
Interesting dog bite data from

"70 percent of bites happen to children under the age of ten. More than 60 percent of the children bitten are boys, and 87 percent are white. Children are most frequently bitten (61 percent of the time) when they come in contact with the dog’s food or possessions."
 
#211 ·
Interesting dog bite data from The Genius of dogs.

"70 percent of bites happen to children under the age of ten. More than 60 percent of the children bitten are boys, and 87 percent are white. Children are most frequently bitten (61 percent of the time) when they come in contact with the dog’s food or possessions."
And these numbers make it more then evident that children and dogs need to be taught. I like living in a house that I'm not on edge in.
 
#210 ·
I think a main point with dogs and personal space is for children and adults to act in such a way as to avoid a dog feeling like it needs to snap at them to give it space.

Any situation should be gauged depending on the temperament of the dog and how the children behave.

I've seen children hug my dog and sometimes it is ok, but generally i will explain to them to not go hugging a dog which is lying down resting and to leave it alone.

You won't really see dogs hugging or putting there paws on other dogs unless play-fighting , dominating or humping. So maybe dogs see hugging in a different way from us humans.

I also ask children to lift their chin and look to the side of the dog when passing dogs so they don't get licked and so they are not making eye contact with the dog when passing or show any fear. Chin up and to the side is showing a dog you respect it and are not interested in it imo. There are some interesting theories from Martin mackenna a self proclaimed dread-locked dog whisperer in his youtube videos. A different and more basic approach. Similar theory with CM, no touch talk eye contact.

Again it is relative with the children and the dog. If a dog grows up with the children and sleeps in their rooms etc they are gonna have a different relationship than if they meet once a week or a month.
 
#212 ·
Re-visiting this a bit here.

I have been keeping tabs on myself with my dogs since I posted in this thread and have learned something. I do in fact interact with my dogs in a face-to-face way very very often. It's so ingrained in my personality/day to day that i didn't really consider that I do in fact "get up in my dog's faces".

When I come home I drop to a knee and hug/pat/rub the dogs as they go through the normal greeting spaz-out. Both dogs moan and whine and yip and nose bump my face/head with extreme regularity. I often lean over and allow them to come over and rub heads. At bedtime both usually give me a final once over and a night-night lick on the face. I get random drive-by lickings if I am down at dog head height as well. So, I have to say that I do in fact get lots of doggie facetime. It's so much a part of how my dogs communicate that I didn't realize just how much it happens.
 
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