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generic question about personal space and biting

23K views 211 replies 37 participants last post by  brembo 
#1 ·
Because of the kid being bitten in the face thread, I am wondering about a topic that was a thread a while back about personal space.

I know that Babs does not like dogs coming right up into her face, she will snap at them -- she has done this twice with strange dogs, and then with the puppy (1 year old Karma) on Sunday. She never did connect and the two snaps at the puppy were really wimpy, not like the snap at the over-friendly Doberman a few years ago. I think she was just telling the offensive, forward dog, that they should get out of her space. With me, or the little girls, there is none of that going on. I invite her up into my space all the time, and I can hug her, put my face right into hers. No problem. And the vet can too.

I am wondering, if the dog sees a child that they live with as lower in the pack order than she is, might they choose to correct a child the way a dog corrects another dog? Or, if people respond to a dog's increasing displays of discomfort/aggression by correcting the child and making what the dog wants to happen, happen, instead of correcting the dog, will that encourage the dog in its method of limiting that sort of behavior?

My dogs LIKE to be in my face or for me to get into their face. Jenna is a face licker. Puppies, breathe on them and they will lick your face -- that's normal. Ninja jumps up on the dog house every day to get her hugs, and to lick my face. I lean back in my office chair and scooch up to Babs' easy chair, and she climbs on top of me and licks my face. I have never been afraid of being right in my dog's faces, and since I have had to give eye ointment, and clean ears, and look at teeth, I need for them to not bar me from their personal space.

And, while it is not normal, if I am in the vet's office, I expect my dogs to check out my demeaner and if I am not freaking out, then they should tolerate whatever the vet needs to do. So far, not a problem.

But I hear a lot of people saying that they do not allow people in their dog's faces. And I guess most people aren't trying to get right into my dog's face. I had one of my puppy buyers, reach over a fence and give one my dog's a kiss once, and I told her that she really shouldn't do that to a dog she doesn't know. But the dog was more startled and just allowed it.

Same with Cujo when the little kid ran up while I was paying the bill at the counter. The kid ran up behind and full body hugged him. He was too startled by it, to actually react, and it's not so much that he was a good dog, but his reaction was acceptable, and we dodged a bullet so to speak.

Another dog that is not accustomed to that from a stranger might have reacted differently I am hearing. So the question is, do you socialize the dog and familiarize them with hugs and people up in their faces, or is it more the dogs that have people doing this, and are displaying increasing discomfort with it, the ones that are more likely to lash out?

I mean, if we dig around in a dog's food dish, and take shtuff away from the dog, and mess with it and give it back, we can create food aggressive issues where there might not have been any. Can we also create problems by pushing a dog to accept everything from everybody as a part of socialization, and if the dog doesn't seem to like it, flood the dog. When if we had left well enough alone, the one or two incidents that might happen when someone the dog does not trust gets into the dog's face, the dog will be startled/surprised, but not actually aggress to the point of a bite.

I did have a puppy that I placed, that I would pick up (he was a cute booger), and bring him up to my face and he would bite my nose. Every time. You would think I would learn. He was 13 weeks old. I figured he just saw my face as a huge toy, and the nose was sticking out, and if he was lucky, he could make the whole thing make noise. I was not sorry to see that one go. I told the people, "he bites."

I guess I am just fascinated with this topic. Someone suggested I start a generic dog bites kid thread. I think I would rather discuss dogs' attitude toward their face area, or other spots like paws or ears if they are problematic for some dogs.
 
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#106 ·
I dont count puppy dexter growling at me when he was chowing down as a "guarding experiance" because he was so little and he did get over it quickly.
I do however count shilohs severe food aggression with other dogs as a real experiance, and i worked on that so slowly with her, and she is totally over it now. She went from a dog that could not have dexter 6 ft away from her while she ate to a dog that eats beside and shares food now.
The more i read though the more i am beginning to think that she never had a problem to begin with, something she aquired living on the street probably, just took her a year to unlearn that issue.
 
#114 ·
I am lucky that I've never owned a resource-guarder. I do have to take care of my sister's dog once in a while though, and she is one. I appreciate the dogs I have had after dealing with this one. Usually I get some cheese from the fridge and call her over, lead her outside, then return in to remove whatever I have to. She isn't as bad with her family as she is with 'outsiders'. Actually, me and my dad are the only ones who can deal with her.

I should qualify that I've had my dogs (except for one, but that dog was so awesome it wouldn't have mattered anyway) since wee pups. I did do lots of trade-training, I never made it a big deal in terms of "GIVE ME THAT, IT'S MINE" type thing. Just trained them to be comfortable with me taking things away. The release command is perfect in my dog, but I rarely have to use it. With bones, it's usually 'All done'. I almost always practice a short heeling-eye contact routine with downs and recalls before the bone, while it's laying on his sheet, because, Man! There is nothing like that focus when he knows that bone is over there. ;) I don't know if I'm doing it 'right'.

As for the in your face-- I've taught those bite prevention classes for years with the school district. Three different dogs. I don't let the kids get in the dog's face, but boy, they sure want to. It's just some sort of instinct in kids. I don't ever treat other dogs as affectionately as I treat my own, (based on the individual dog) but there are a few I know that I probably could. I was very careful with my dog now when he was a pup to make sure no one, including my kids, messed with him too much in terms of face area. I NEVER let their friends get anywhere near it, even though he doesn't seem to have an issue. I also don't allow strangers to squat down and pet him, and I monitor kids we meet. He has a natural affinity for kids though, and always has.

My own dog likes to wake me up in the morning by coming to my side of the bed and sticking his cold, wet nose in my face and getting his giant tongue going to lick my face. I guess he doesn't have a problem with it, heh. When I get up though, and if I sit down, he comes over and sticks his head into my gut, or under my arm, like he's 'burying' it. When I start to stroke his sides, he then turns around and leans his butt into me. I know that one is an affectionate stance, but the head burying.... I've always wondered about this.
 
#117 ·
@shepherdmom,

From what i am reading, i dont think anyone is thinking of you in a negative light, i think what they are saying is, if what you are doing works for you then power to you! but what works for one does not always work for another. Plus, its so impossible to read tone, you can put any spin on anything you would,like but it may not be what someone is truely trying to convey.
 
#125 ·
Shepherdmom, it just seems like a huge contradiction when you say how much experience you have - then to turn around and say your way works so it's not dangerous. You're discounting all those years under your belt and the ability to read dogs that came from them. I know I might have been bitten last summer, when I saw a dog freeze and tense up after I put the dish down. Instead of pushing the issue, I took the dog's focus off his food and there was no problem. The hands-on experience you get from spending decades with dogs shouldn't be taken as a given!
 
#127 ·
I get it. Right fighting is hard work. When we give an opinion (based on our own anecdotal evidence) and someone has a differing opinion, it's quite common to want to come back and defend our stance. The thing is ... just because someone disagrees doesn't mean that they think we're wrong-headed, evil, bad .. they have just had differing experiences. Your experiences are valid ... so are theirs.

I've had dogs for over 30 years. I've NEVER had a resource guarder .. ever. I could do anything I wanted .. take things away, move the food, whatever. However, I didn't bother doing it routinely because there was no need. However, the pup I have now has the signs of guarding behavior. He was raised the same as the rest of my dogs (all gotten as pups just like he was) and I have to really keep a close eye on him and his body language. He has tons of food and toy drive. He doesn't guard from me, but he guards from other dogs (puppies in his socialization class with a toy--I removed the toy and him from the situation), from the cat with his food bowl (he hasn't growled, but does the stand over and watches her like a hawk) and a few other instances with grown family members.

Based on prior experience I could say I won't have it because I'd NEVER had it .. but I do now.
 
#128 ·
My experience with a dog bite as a child when when I was about 6.

I was throwing bits of bread crust to my grandmother's dog. The dog lived in the back yard, was friendly, and had not been aggressive. I was having a good time, and so was the dog, until I thought I threw one too far away from where he was.

I bent down to pick up the piece of bread and throw it closer to him.

Big mistake.

The dog, who now that I think of it, was probably a BC, rushed me and bit me hard on the upper thigh, before I could even move.

When my grandmother ran out and saw what happened, she shrugged and said, "A dog is a dog," and went back inside.

Our view on this does come from our experiences. I learned that once I gave a dog something, I need to let him have it.
 
#133 ·
Right or wrong someone can tell me (I'm sure they will). My pup growled at my son (age 23 who also feeds him his lunch daily) when he got too close to him and his food when I happened to be home. I walked over to him (he doesn't posture to me ever), grasped his collar and walked him away from his bowl. I had him sit and go through all the impulse control/obedience things I normally do before he eats. Put it back down and had my son get pieces of hot dog from the fridge and toss it in his bowl. He hasn't growled at him since.
 
#137 ·
Aw, I'm sorry shepherdmom, and I hope you're ok. I just think it's very important to keep the conversation going for those that are only reading and I wonder what they're taking away from the discussion. I wouldn't want someone to get bitten and PTS their dog over something that could have been prevented by them doing something differently, and not challenging their dog. I'm just thinking about them - not trying to annoy you. Hugs!
 
#140 ·
Thanks. :)

The thing that worries me and I try to always emphasize it. When I put my hand into a dogs bowl and feed it, its a young puppy! When I put my face next to theirs and cuddle and hug the dog its a young puppy! When I take an object away and say no MINE its a young puppy chewing on something he shouldn't. If I train a puppy correctly then when he is an adult it won't be an issue.

An adult or even an older puppy rescue dog has to be treated completely differently.

Just want to clarify something else. When I say I'm the boss, I mean my house, my rules. I don't mean I alpha roll my dogs kind of boss. So that was my bad! I should have explained it differently. :eek:
 
#142 ·
I'm reading "Inside of a Dog". What does that have to do with the thread? Well, it's given me a much better appreciation of how dogs perceive the world. One thing that sticks out is that dogs with longer snouts (Goldens, Labs, GSDs) due to their physiology, have difficulty seeing what is directly in front of them. There's a lot more that figures in to why many/most/all are not thrilled with being hugged/kissed, too.
I know that the base discussion here is how to get around the dogs discomfort in these situations or whether it should be done. What I'm adding (I only glanced through the first page of this 14 page thread - sorry Selzer) is that understanding a dog's physical persception may help.
 
#145 ·
Good to know. :thumbup:

Reading McConnels' The Other End of the Leash was eye-opening, as well.
Amazon.com: The Other End of the Leash: Why We Do What We Do Around Dogs eBook: Patricia McConnell Phd: Kindle Store

I was talking with a friend of mine the other day and said that vets should have some info to pass out to owners, even a pamphlet such as these, for every single owner who walks in.
The Pawse: Dog Body Language and DINOS posters

They are the one who can reach the most pet owners, and most have no idea how to interpret dog body language and facial expressions, especially since theirs is in many cases the opposite of our own.
 
#143 ·
I am by no means a trainer or behaviorist. I can only share my experience with Natty Boh. He was between 4 and 6 months old, when I had him transported to me from a southern shelter. He is not a GSD. He is mix - hound, JRT, Brittany, whatever. Boh came to be with pretty serious resource guarding issues - food, toys, space and even his body. Maybe some of you wouldn't call all of those things "resource" guarding, but I handled all the issues the same. I hand fed, traded for higher value treats and toys, and worked on obedience. I worked to desensitize him to the things he did not like. If he growled on the couch, or bed, his butt was quickly on the floor. I kept him on a leash, while we worked on changing the behavior. He never liked to be picked up, or "man handled." I respected his thresholds, but worked to have him allow more handling. Some times a smaller dog needs to be lifted - onto the table at the vet, into the car, etc.

A year later and Boh is a different dog. He seems to understand that no one is going to take his things. He no longer growls over food or toys. He sometimes needs to be reminded that he does not own the bed or couch. There was a time he would have bitten my adult kids - not breaking the skin, but hard enough to bruise. That no longer happens. He has never bitten me.

As far a being in the dogs face.....maybe I have always been lucky. Maybe it is because we are such affectionate people, that the dogs quickly adjust and accept it. My dogs have always given and accepted affection. My GSD was a 2 year old shelter dog, when she came to live with us. My kids were 2, 6, and 10. She adored the kids. She was always in their faces giving them kisses. She treated the two year old like he was her puppy. Same with my Samoyed. It was hard to get a picture of these two dogs, with the kids. The dogs could not resist kissing the kids - even for a picture.

Fast forward, Natty Boh is just as affectionate as the others. He even adores kids, though I no longer have any little ones. I guess I don't have any real answers, but I have never had a dog that I feared would bite anyone in the face. I can't even imagine that happening.
 
#144 ·
I did add food of higher value to my puppy's food dish while he was eating, just so that he'd think my hand coming to his bowl meant wonderful things would happen. But that started a whole other issue: why eat kibble when you can wait for the magic hand to drop cheese and chicken? Lol, he'd give me those adorable and imploring looks, asking me why I was feeding him crap when we both knew there was better stuff in the fridge. You can't win. :D
 
#147 · (Edited)
I've read every post. I'm not sure if I am any further along.

It seems like some of us DO train our dogs (basic obedience, not necessarily resource management) and have a relationship with them from the get-go, but the dogs either have no tendency toward resource guarding or personal space problems, OR they do not have them with US, their main and perhaps only care-giver.

I have to expect that my dogs, all but one of whom, I wiped off the birth fluid from, saw me as a huge constant when they first opened their eyes, and the idea of guarding food or personal space from me never entered into their concrete skulls. Digging around in their food bowls would make absolutely no difference whatsoever. It would not make them food aggressive, it would not make them less food aggressive. They all knew me when I could squash them like a bug if I wanted to, and they may still perceive me as being this omniscient, omnipotent provider of all that is wonderful, and at the same time, She Who Must Be Obeyed.

Of the complaints from puppy owners, resource guarding has not been mentioned by any of them, so, it is also possible that genetically, this is not one of the problems the line carries.

I have had a dog out there, that had personal space problems though. In the litter this dog was one of the two outliers. Most of the litter were very middle of the road, this guy scored very independent. The dog did not like to be hugged or have people in his face. I am guessing that maybe this is a personality trait that can be recognized as early as 7 weeks, and could possibly help breeders in the selection process.

It is not necessarily a character flaw, as some of the features you will want in a working dog, might be this independent nature. So to wipe out this trait completely from the gene pool might wipe out other traits that are needed. But recognizing pups who will be more likely to have these problems, early, might make for either different socialization for such puppies or different placement.

If buyers are buying a pup with a certain type of personality, then they might be able to cater the dog's early socialization to avoid problems down the line, maybe.
 
#154 ·
I've read every post. I'm not sure if I am any further along.

It seems like some of us DO train our dogs (basic obedience, not necessarily resource management) and have a relationship with them from the get-go, but the dogs either have no tendency toward resource guarding or personal space problems, OR they do not have them with US, their main and perhaps only care-giver.

I have to expect that my dogs, all but one of whom, I wiped off the birth fluid from, saw me as a huge constant when they first opened their eyes, and the idea of guarding food or personal space from me never entered into their concrete skulls. Digging around in their food bowls would make absolutely no difference whatsoever. It would not make them food aggressive, it would not make them less food aggressive. They all knew me when I could squash them like a bug if I wanted to, and they may still perceive me as being this omniscient, omnipotent provider of all that is wonderful, and at the same time, She Who Must Be Obeyed.

Of the complaints from puppy owners, resource guarding has not been mentioned by any of them, so, it is also possible that genetically, this is not one of the problems the line carries.

I have had a dog out there, that had personal space problems though. In the litter this dog was one of the two outliers. Most of the litter were very middle of the road, this guy scored very independent. The dog did not like to be hugged or have people in his face. I am guessing that maybe this is a personality trait that can be recognized as early as 7 weeks, and could possibly help breeders in the selection process.

It is not necessarily a character flaw, as some of the features you will want in a working dog, might be this independent nature. So to wipe out this trait completely from the gene pool might wipe out other traits that are needed. But recognizing pups who will be more likely to have these problems, early, might make for either different socialization for such puppies or different placement.

If buyers are buying a pup with a certain type of personality, then they might be able to cater the dog's early socialization to avoid problems down the line, maybe.
You recognized this in that pup. I have no doubt you found him the right home. The right home would not have been one with children who wanted to hug and kiss the dog. Every dog is different. I do think the right dog needs to be in the right home. If it isn't a good fit, it isn't - It's like hammering the square peg into the round hole.

I had an adult springer spaniel in my home for less than 24 hours. She hated kids. Bit my 6 year old and growled in my 2 year olds' face. (the dog put her face into my child's space.) She went to an adult home, where she bit her new owner several times. He loved her in spite of herself.

I guess there aren't any easy answers, but in my limited experience, most animals will give a kid a puppy pass. I've seen a donkey who will dump an adult, but will happily carry a child or allow a kid to wrap his arms around its' face. I have seen dogs be very forgiving of having a child accidentally step on its' paw or tail. I have a problem with a "family" dog, who would bite a family member in the face for any reason.
 
#148 ·
Food is one of the big three for dogs, it's foremost in their minds almost all the time. I guess the idea of "if I can mess with their food all is good to go" is where the removing food thing came from.

I baseline it, and live with the results, I see no need to push an animal in regards to such a strong.....desire/drive/primal instinct? Once the food is down and I have given the break command the FOOD IS HIS. I thump his chest and say "good boy" and go on about my chores. If I forget to thump him he will quit eating and give me the stink-eye too, I strive for a routine at dinner time. I'm pretty sure I could call him off his food too, but see no reason to test that idea.
 
#149 ·
My last puppy hated to be held, picked up, or cuddled. I never gave it a second thought, and I didn't pester him in that way. I still cleaned his ears and clipped his nails, but I didn't squish and squeeze him and try to bond in a way that he clearly didn't enjoy. This puppy now is a cuddle bug, so he gets this kind of attention because he likes it. I don't have a problem with my dogs deciding how much attention they want or get, or how they get it. They're part of my life and they deserve to have their feelings acknowledged.
 
#153 ·
Hahaha!!! Bowel...lol

I've been following this post. Learned a lot...rolled my eyes a little ;)
I was bit 3 times as a kid! Nothing hospital worthy just a few holes in my hand.
Our vet told us to be real hands on with Zoe and to take her food and what not. I only really touch her food to add yummies. I have let all my kids hand feed her...Just not straight from her bowl. I give them a handful of food. I do take toys and put them and rotate. I don't generally takes bones unless I'm relocating them from carpet to the towel. Zoe is still a pup...I don't know at what age I need to be aware of these kinds of things.

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#174 ·
Going back to food issues....I am curious if dogs being fed raw would be more difficult to work with if resource guarding or to expand, more protective of their food? What could you drop in bowl that would be of higher value?
 
#179 ·
All 3 of my dogs are usually fed kibble but sometimes I cut up steak or chicken, give them raw bones and have never had a problem taking raw food or kibble out of their bowl. Like others here I have been in the dark much to long about this problem and never really gave it thoughts on whether to play with their food or leave them alone. Therefore I usually don't bother them , I just have always stood there to make sure that they don't bother each other and if food gets tossed out of the bowl or as in canned food , stuck, I reach in to replace it or cut it up.
 
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