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generic question about personal space and biting

23K views 211 replies 37 participants last post by  brembo 
#1 ·
Because of the kid being bitten in the face thread, I am wondering about a topic that was a thread a while back about personal space.

I know that Babs does not like dogs coming right up into her face, she will snap at them -- she has done this twice with strange dogs, and then with the puppy (1 year old Karma) on Sunday. She never did connect and the two snaps at the puppy were really wimpy, not like the snap at the over-friendly Doberman a few years ago. I think she was just telling the offensive, forward dog, that they should get out of her space. With me, or the little girls, there is none of that going on. I invite her up into my space all the time, and I can hug her, put my face right into hers. No problem. And the vet can too.

I am wondering, if the dog sees a child that they live with as lower in the pack order than she is, might they choose to correct a child the way a dog corrects another dog? Or, if people respond to a dog's increasing displays of discomfort/aggression by correcting the child and making what the dog wants to happen, happen, instead of correcting the dog, will that encourage the dog in its method of limiting that sort of behavior?

My dogs LIKE to be in my face or for me to get into their face. Jenna is a face licker. Puppies, breathe on them and they will lick your face -- that's normal. Ninja jumps up on the dog house every day to get her hugs, and to lick my face. I lean back in my office chair and scooch up to Babs' easy chair, and she climbs on top of me and licks my face. I have never been afraid of being right in my dog's faces, and since I have had to give eye ointment, and clean ears, and look at teeth, I need for them to not bar me from their personal space.

And, while it is not normal, if I am in the vet's office, I expect my dogs to check out my demeaner and if I am not freaking out, then they should tolerate whatever the vet needs to do. So far, not a problem.

But I hear a lot of people saying that they do not allow people in their dog's faces. And I guess most people aren't trying to get right into my dog's face. I had one of my puppy buyers, reach over a fence and give one my dog's a kiss once, and I told her that she really shouldn't do that to a dog she doesn't know. But the dog was more startled and just allowed it.

Same with Cujo when the little kid ran up while I was paying the bill at the counter. The kid ran up behind and full body hugged him. He was too startled by it, to actually react, and it's not so much that he was a good dog, but his reaction was acceptable, and we dodged a bullet so to speak.

Another dog that is not accustomed to that from a stranger might have reacted differently I am hearing. So the question is, do you socialize the dog and familiarize them with hugs and people up in their faces, or is it more the dogs that have people doing this, and are displaying increasing discomfort with it, the ones that are more likely to lash out?

I mean, if we dig around in a dog's food dish, and take shtuff away from the dog, and mess with it and give it back, we can create food aggressive issues where there might not have been any. Can we also create problems by pushing a dog to accept everything from everybody as a part of socialization, and if the dog doesn't seem to like it, flood the dog. When if we had left well enough alone, the one or two incidents that might happen when someone the dog does not trust gets into the dog's face, the dog will be startled/surprised, but not actually aggress to the point of a bite.

I did have a puppy that I placed, that I would pick up (he was a cute booger), and bring him up to my face and he would bite my nose. Every time. You would think I would learn. He was 13 weeks old. I figured he just saw my face as a huge toy, and the nose was sticking out, and if he was lucky, he could make the whole thing make noise. I was not sorry to see that one go. I told the people, "he bites."

I guess I am just fascinated with this topic. Someone suggested I start a generic dog bites kid thread. I think I would rather discuss dogs' attitude toward their face area, or other spots like paws or ears if they are problematic for some dogs.
 
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#2 ·
Gosh, I don't know, a couple of questions about whether socializing dogs that have a problem with personal space might make them more dangerous, and whether our responses to a dog that has personal space issues might increase the problem.

I suppose, I am just interested in a general discussion about personal space issues and aggression in dogs, particularly the in your face and hugging stuff.
 
#3 ·
. So the question is, do you socialize the dog and familiarize them with hugs and people up in their faces, or is it more the dogs that have people doing this, and are displaying increasing discomfort with it, the ones that are more likely to lash out?
You do your best to get your dog used to handling. I think it works best when you get him as a pup.

But if the dog doesn't like whatever is being done to him, I do believe that one day the bite will ensue, meaning, "What part of I don't like that don't you understand? Here, let me escalate and get my point across more clearly..."

It really depends on the temperament of the dog.
 
#4 ·
I mean, if we dig around in a dog's food dish, and take shtuff away from the dog, and mess with it and give it back, we can create food aggressive issues where there might not have been any. Can we also create problems by pushing a dog to accept everything from everybody as a part of socialization, and if the dog doesn't seem to like it, flood the dog. When if we had left well enough alone, the one or two incidents that might happen when someone the dog does not trust gets into the dog's face, the dog will be startled/surprised, but not actually aggress to the point of a bite.
Everyone's training methods are different and I know most here are horrified at the way I train. But I do get down on the floor with the pup. Right in his face and his in mine. I also pick him up and cuddle him to my face. I touch his paws, his ears, his tail and look in his mouth everyday! But then again I also put my hands in his food bowl pick up food and hand feed. My adult dogs (the one's I've raised) will let me take anything away from them and they will tolerate a lot of in your face from people. That being said I also think a lot of it is genetic. Buddy is bomb proof. He is absolutely rock solid and has proven it time and time again. Ivan is skittish. I got him from the shelter, he is a mix of lab and god knows what. I don't know what happened before I got him but I think if a stranger got in his face the way I do, they might get bitten so I don't let strangers get in his face.
 
#5 ·
A lot of it is temperament. A lot can be done to make a puppy tolerant of THB (typical human bull****) but once you have an older dog especially after the 2 year mark it usually becomes way harder to deal with and generally becomes a management thing.

We have a dog in board and train atm who is 7 and has bitten for people getting in his face or getting huggy and touchy with him. I haven't seen any issues from him yet because i dont do it so we get on just fine. Now at some point after i build some trust with him ill try to get him to become more tolerant of it but he will probably never be that cuddly type of dog. Its just a part of his personality now. To a certain extent i think you just have to respect that.
 
#6 · (Edited)
Since my husband does not like a lot of socialization when he's home (he gets a ton at work), it was difficult to social Molly to other people. She definitely loves that our immediate family and cats are in her face, and she licks back, but I'd never want to test her on another person. While we are at the vet, and the vet techs are listening to her heart at her level she will try to lick their face, she knows they like her. We also have a business neighbor that clearly loves all dogs and she will let him get in her face.

My neighbor has a very sweet, submissive female pitbull. This is her first dog. Since hers is so sweet, maybe she thought all were sweet and while on a walk by herself, she saw another pitbull and bent down to the dog's level to pet and say hello, I guess she was too close and the stranger pitbull bit her in the face, requiring and ER visit and plastic surgery 6 months later on her upper lip. Ever since her story I am apprehensive about getting too close to another dog's face, even if the owner says its very nice.
 
#68 ·
Only thing I can add, is, that for the most part the people that actually know and train there dog are not going to be the ones putting their dogs at risk.

Your meeting the "I thought he was friendly folks" and it can often be an "opps guess I was wrong meeting???"

If someone ask me about a dog dog meeting, my answer would be "No" because I know my dogs!

Not meaning to make light of your situation, just trying to explain what happened. :)
 
#7 ·
I guess I have enough dogs that I do not need to get doggy kisses from other people's dogs. I think a lot of it comes down to when the dog comes up to you, licks your hand, comes over and checks your face out -- like at the vet, usually the techs are not right in the dog's face, but the dog will move their head and sniff and lick at them.

But yeah, listening to other people's horror stories makes you think, what if? I mean, we think we know our dogs. But maybe that pit owner thought she knew her dog too. Maybe she was flabbergasted that her dog did that.
 
#8 · (Edited)
Here's our 16 month old Lady: she regularly gets picked up so that she stands on her back heels and held, she has her bones and favorite treats taken away mid-chew, she has 5 different people on a daily basis-4 of which are teens, coming and going, in her face, rubbing her paws and ears and tail(which she does NOT like), and one, 19 years old, has always straddled her and pretended like she was horse....not one time have we ever been scared or worried...but I have told them many, many times, that they have to protect HER...that if she is allowed to get in trouble and hurts someone, everything changes. When we go out, I often move away from people because she is so excited and I am afraid she will accidentally hurt someone. If someone approaches her I ask them to wait for a minute and the humans converse about how excited she is--so they are warned about how happy she will be to see them...I ultimately feel it's my job to protect her?
 
#9 ·
This is good topic. And a confusing one. I know my opinions differ quite a bit, even as I was thinking about my reply.

I expect my dogs to allow me to do anything I want to them. If I open their mouth to look inside, they better allow it. Same with hugging, restraining, picking up feet, lifting tail. If I had a family living with me, the same would go for everyone that lives in my house. It's non negotiable. That does not mean I spend my time testing and training these behaviors. I just do them and move on.

If I had not done my job and for some reason my dog did not perceive other family members as having that respect as well, then I have failed.

Now for John Q. Public. This is where I start getting wishy washy. I, personally would not knowingly take a dog to a public place without being sure of their response. But, to be sure if their response, you have to take them. So I generally pick smaller events, or go in knowing that I may have to leave if it proves overwhelming to my dog.

For example. I KNOW my female Lena can be very snarky with other dogs. So she does not get brought to large events with lots of dogs. She can handle fewer dogs in a quiet setting, so she gets to go the lake and winery tours with a few friends and their dogs.

Now my puppy Nix, he is only 13 months. We did a few events this year, but he is getting older, less puppyish. So this year I will have to expose him carefully so I can judge his reaction. If I deem him not safe, he won't get to continue going or get to go to bigger events. The first few events this spring, I will be be overly diligent and watching his body language. And I have zero problem telling people not to touch him. If and when I deem him trustworthy, then I will take him to events known to have children. While I expect parents to watch their children, kids are kids and many parents assume if the dog is out at big public event then they are safe. Whether this is right or not. It is my job to make sure I don't contribute to a problem. So yes, I expect, if I am relaxed, that my dog allow a stranger to pet them,
Or a child to hug them. That said, I am always diligent, and if I see a kid coming over, I greet them and turn my dogs back to them, so they don't charge the dogs face. Then, once I know the dog is calm I allow kisses.

I never force my dog. If they seem uncomfortable, I remove them from the stimulus. We go on a walk, I put them in the car, we hide and smoke a cigarette(well I smoke)

Not every dog can be like that, it is up to the owner to read and understand their dog. And not force them into a situation that is dangerous. It does not mean the dog is a bad dog.

I don't expect every dog to like strangers in their face. It's very rude. I do expect owners to KNOW this about their dog and mitigate the situation so that the dog does not bite anyone.

If you know your dog does not like strangers in their close proximity, don't take them to events with an uncontrollable element.

But at home, inside the family, that same dog better accept anything.














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#10 · (Edited)
I always stick my hands in my dogs food bowls, I have done a really good job at making sure i can take anything away from them (not like i go around yanking things away) but if i ever needed to take something they were not supposed to have i can with no problems. I have also micro managed shilohs food problem (she was food aggressive with other dogs bad!) i put her in a crate for the first long while then i moved dexters food bowl closer and closer to the outside of the crate, and now well, she eats out of the crate beside Dexter no issues and she even shares the plate lickings with them. I also fixed the weird water thing she had going on by adding a third water bowl to the basement who knew one more water bowl was the trick.
Honestly though, i cant really say they would not take a chunk out of a random person for sticking their hands in their food, or removing something from their mouth. I also cant say i would trust either of the boys to tolerate a running screaming toddler, maybe shiloh because as i have said before she just adores and thinks people are king.
I also feel that i should beable to give my dog a hug or kiss anytime i want, and i do! sorry if i am off topic here im tired tonight.


We dont have running screaming toddlers all of the kids are over 10 and they are boys so most of the time they are not even interested in the dogs, infact we have to pay them to walk the dogs, the dogs were a novelty that wore off a long time ago and was replaced by call of duty black ops.
 
#17 · (Edited)
So if I ask why someone is doing this and what is gained by doing this, I am snarky?
I don't know how else to phrase things so that people don't get offended.
For heaven's sake-- it is like walking on eggshells constantly over here.

Food is a primal thing.

It isn't only a human eating her chocolate cake and having her boss come take it away who would be ticked.

You are taking away high value treats from an animal. In the animal world, the higher members of the pack will never take away a choice morsel once they have let the lower member have it. It just isn't done.

And yes, you do gain respect and trust from dogs. That is why they will deem to listen to you and not the neighbor.
I wonder if this started with the Cesar shows, this taking food away and giving it back.

As a child, I was always taught to leave the dog alone when it is eating. When did this trend of taking food and messing with an eating dog become the thing to do? :confused:
 
#22 ·
I don't know.

I used to do it. But I have since, stopped. My first GSD was pretty tough, and I did not want to have the same problems with the next one, and I kind of went over-board the other way with her. But it did not cause problems, because she did not have that problem. But that doesn't mean it couldn't cause problems with other dogs.

At this point, I know I can take anything from any of my dogs at any time. Sometimes, they will get something, that they should not have, and I can go and grab a hold of them and take it out of their mouthes. They seem to know that they were trying to scarf something that wasn't theirs though, and they are fine with it. When people started talking about food aggression, I went out and fed my dogs, and after they were eating in their bowls, I picked the bowl up and moved it about 3 inches and set it back down, just to gage their reaction or lack of reaction. I can honestly say that food aggression isn't a problem that they have. Fine, tested, now I can just leave that be. I do not want to create problems where there were not problems.

Which brings us back to the subject at hand, if we know the dog has an issue with people getting up close and personal, will flooding the dog be more likely to cause the dog to bite, or to become more tolerant of it?

I think with puppies, yes, you can touch paws, and tail, and ears, and hug them, and kiss them, and get them totally used to you. But what do people who rescue a dog at say 3 years do, to desensitize such a dog, a dog of unknown background, get the dog used to being handled in spots where they would rather be left alone?

And also, it was mentioned that we say don't get into a dog's face, but people with a rescue dog post pictures of the dog and themselves with the dog right up in their face. And it is so cute, everyone says. Is it a double standard? Should we warn people to get to know the dog before getting up close and personal. Or would that be just being a Negative Nellie?
 
#18 · (Edited)
@sunflowers,

When i was growing up my mom always stuck her hands in tips bowl when he was a pup. It was something i did not bother to question but when i grew up and got my first puppy i did it, and that little bugger at 8.5 weeks growled at me and went ape crap bananas, we could not have this behavior it was just not cool. Dexter got over it in a few days. I suppose although there are so many different opinions about things that some may say, by sticking your hands in food or taking a toy away you may be preventing bad bahaviors in the future, they learn that even though there is a hand in the bowl they can continue eating and the world is not going to stop and they dont have to guard it, or they will get that toy back no problem.

Although personally if someone tried to take my choco cake i would stab them with my fork. :)
 
#20 ·
well by taking i dont think anyone means just yanking it out of the dogs mouth, i dont just yank whatever out of anyones mouth but i will give you an example of todays funtimes at my house,
I walked into the florida room and there is my under exercised (i have been busy and he has not seen his regular 5 k runs in 2 days, just leash walks) border collie with the "oh snap you caught me face" with my fiances sons 60.00 snowboarding glasses hanging out of his mouth, i walked over and grabbed the poor plastic arm and said "give me that" and i was not waiting for him to let it go, i just took them. He let them go and proceeded to sulk for the day.
 
#24 ·
with my fiances sons 60.00 snowboarding glasses hanging out of his mouth, i walked over and grabbed the poor plastic arm and said "give me that" and i was not waiting for him to let it go, i just took them.
But this isn't food. You had a legitimate reason for taking away an object that the dog had no business chewing, and could have harmed him if he had ingested chunks.

I was specifically questioning the "she has her bones and favorite treats taken away mid-chew" thing.

How would you interpret this, except the owner yanking the dog's high value treats away?
 
#23 ·
@selzer,

With Dexters issues as a pup aside (that litterally only took us less then a week to stop) i have never had a dog with people food problems,
Shiloh, we did not flood i worked on her slowly and time healed her issues,
I think its important for people to know they are rolling the dice with rescue dogs by doing the cute selfie with fido glued to the side of there face, i would never ever stick my face in the face of a dog i have not totally completely bonded with.
 
#167 ·
This comment reminded me of a "selfie fail" with Zoe :p



She climbed in my lap being sweet on me and in the split second it took me to capture the memory THAT happened!

I think its important for people to know they are rolling the dice with rescue dogs by doing the cute selfie with fido glued to the side of there face, i would never ever stick my face in the face of a dog i have not totally completely bonded with.
 
#30 ·
I move food bowls once or twice to gauge their reaction, once I know how they are with me and food I'm happy. Cable pushes his bowl here and yon while eating, I put a foot in front of it to stop it's travels. He seems pleased by this, he'll look up, give me a tail wag and dive back into his food.

In the face of a dog? I don't understand WHY someone would want to do this. It's asking for a bloody lip when said dog headbutts on accident, and probably a threatening bit of body language. I can do it with mine, but I don't. I have also learned not to hover over dogs, doggie head uppercuts are painful and hovering over a dog IS a dominant display that can wig em out some. Mine seek my face now and again, mainly in play and I allow it, but sure don't encourage it.

selzer-

I very recently rescued a 3-ish y/o male GSD. Cable. He was pretty spooky with his hind quarters. I have noticed some trauma scarring on his passenger-side rear leg and maybe some over-growth from a leg break. Not too sure on the break tho. Anyway, he was very skittish about letting me inspect anything "rear-end" related. Not snippy but much pressure to inspect was greeted with a bolting dog. I simply eased the idea of me having unfettered access to any part of his body. If I just reach out and grab a rear paw, he'll move. I get him in a down and tell him "hey, lemme see that" which is a marker for I'm going to be nosy and poke around and I have access as I need it. I can't fiddle around for long periods as he gets antsy. He will present his butt for me too, my job is to scratch and rub and he's fine with that as long as he is the initiator of the actions. I also "pants" him, I grab two big handfuls of the fuzzy fur on the backs of his legs and yank, pretty hard too, and let go and do my version of a play bow. You'd think a dog with rear-end issues would have a fit, but he knows that it's playtime and will maneuver so that I can pants him again.

I got him this way by just slowly moving back towards his rump while giving him epically good rubs, the kind that makes dogs melt. He soon figured out that when I am touching only good things will happen. He trusts me implicitly, I have never done anything to dissuade that opinion either. It helps that he is a very thoughtful and observant dog. The flip side to this is that his "sister" a one y/o GSD female gets immediate and harsh corrections if she so much as gets near his butt. In bed or a relaxed place she can snuggle and he's okay. If she moves too much she'll get a rumble from him, whereupon she normally moves away, she is smart too.
 
#37 ·
In the face of a dog? I don't understand WHY someone would want to do this. It's asking for a bloody lip when said dog headbutts on accident, and probably a threatening bit of body language. I can do it with mine, but I don't. I have also learned not to hover over dogs, doggie head uppercuts are painful and hovering over a dog IS a dominant display that can wig em out some. Mine seek my face now and again, mainly in play and I allow it, but sure don't encourage it.
I've felt the doggie headbutt on occasion. Ouch! Their heads are like rocks... But you teach them the face thing so that if a kid does get near the face they don't freak out. They don't have to like it but they do have to tolerate it. :)
 
#31 ·
LOL Brembo on the accidental headbut. I just did the dumbest thing: I mentioned 'bone' to Rocket and of course he immediately gave me the LOOK. He has a touch command, and as I was squatting on the floor right next to him, picking up a pillow, and he stuck his nose in my face, I thought for some reason it would be a good idea to have him 'touch' my nose. Since he uses his nose for this command, you can imagine the excited 'touch' my right eye received. (his aim was slightly off due to anticipatory excitement.) :crazy:
 
#32 ·
LOL, on the doggy upper-cuts. Can someone PLEASE tell Ninja that her head is like a concrete battering ram. Today, she plowed into my bad knee and I was ready to send her into orbit. Luckily for her, I was too busy holding my knee and cursing.
 
#36 ·
Only, when I say, "MINE" I don't want my dog to touch it ever again. That wouldn't work with a food dish or toy or bone. Maybe "ENOUGH" would work.

I guess it is may be like laser pointers. If your dog is not susceptible to having a problem with it, no amount of playing around with their food or taking stuff from them will cause an issue.
 
#41 ·
I've gotten most of my dogs as puppies, and I've taught all of them "kiss". Sage will give me a big slurp on the nose. Carly bumps her nose against mine. Russell has finally figured it out, and will give me a smooch on the cheek. I like this. They don't really seem to view it any differently than, say, a command to shake hands. It's just a trick. I start it when I bring them home. That said, I wouldn't let a stranger or a kid come up and try it. I just don't think strangers need to be in my dog's face. At all.

But, I also have "show dogs". They have to let people get in their personal space. Judges have to be able to open a mouth and count those teeth, run their hands all over the dogs, and in the case of the males, check out those boy parts. Ever since Russell's been little, I've reached under while he's standing to make sure all his equipment is still there, just like at a dog show, LOL. Poor guy. Always gives me this look, like "hey!". :eek: There's a lot to be said for doing silly show dog stuff when they are puppies.
 
#43 ·
I've gotten most of my dogs as puppies, and I've taught all of them "kiss". Sage will give me a big slurp on the nose. Carly bumps her nose against mine. Russell has finally figured it out, and will give me a smooch on the cheek. I like this. They don't really seem to view it any differently than, say, a command to shake hands. It's just a trick.
One way to get them close to the face it to teach them to take a cracker out of your mouth. I do this a lot with puppies. Many also give kisses. I had one that even learned to make the smoochie noises. It was so funny.
 
#45 ·
I start out by bargaining on some things, and I just take other things. I usually say "hey hand it over". When they do (sometimes with my assistance, like prying it out of Russell's mouth), I always say thank you, LOL. When they are young, I guess do trade quite a bit, now that I think about it. Basically they get used to giving me what ever I want. After awhile I don't have to give them anything, but sometimes I do. I've never had a resource guarder in 35+ years of dog ownership.
 
#46 ·
I am not going to lie. Part of the training in the beginning is trading, it's like training any other command. They get treats all the time, then randomly, then no treats. It's a very short process.
 
#49 ·
Trying to think back to when my son was young and had friends over. We had Dobermans back then. He had one friend that kept wanting to hug Tess (why??), and I had to watch that kid like a hawk. She was young, and a VERY stable dog, but there was no sense in making her tolerate hugging from a kid that wasn't her own. When my son was about 6 years old, he dove on top of Tess on the bed. She growled. He got a big lecture about respecting his dog. And she got a "hey, don't be so grumpy". Never happened again.
 
#50 ·
I teach all my dogs to sit and shake hands. Comes in handy, because kids, especially at dog shows, always want to pet my dogs, so I have the dog sit, and then tell the kid to ask them to shake hands. The dogs love it, the kids love it too. Win, win. :)
 
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