We have had our female german shepherd for 5 years, named bella. She is well trained in the usual commands, and even goes to the bathroom where we want in her kennel. She has always been an indoor dog, except for exercise or if we're away for hours we leave her in our fenced in yard. In terms of her personality she often does not want to be touched or petted except by my wife. My wife spent most of the time with her the first couple years we had her, and bella is her baby. Bella in general does not want to have much to do with me or my daughter, she just prefers to not be bothered.
The other day, Bella was sitting on the ground and Abby put her face close to Bella's face, saying she loved her. Bella then proceeded to bite Abby on the nose, causing a large cut, a puncture, internal bleeding and bruising. Bella had never bit anyone before, but Abby did know that she shouldn't be in Bella's face.
At this point, since Bella bit our daughter after being in our family 5 years, I think we have to have her put down. She is so anxious and skittish as it is, and I would not trust her in being around other people or kids. We don't have any behavioral specialists near our small town, even if we did have the time and ability to put in multiple hours trying to cure her anxieties. This is obviously a very difficult decision, especially for my wife. Not sure what I'm looking for in posting this....but feel free to respond with any thoughts.
OP, by the title of this thread (which I hate, BTW) it sounds like you're resigned to destroying this dog, not rehoming her. I don't know the extent of your daughter's injuries but I know at her age it must be hard for her, regardless. I hope she heals well.
It's unfair to expect a dog to behave in a way that's against its nature. If this dog wanted her space, and didn't like smothering, why couldn't you find other things about her to love, and other ways to show it? It's so depressing to hear of these wonderful dogs being PTS, and have to bear all the responsibility when things go wrong.
I ruined a friendship because someone's daughter (8 yo) was at my home and was grabbing my dog's head and staring in his eyes. I told her to stop, because dogs don't like that. Note: didn't ask, told. Her father said it was ok! He said he liked my dog, he was a good dog, and he wouldn't do anything! I told him I didn't want his daughter to learn the hard way that I was right, and I crated my dog, and they were never welcome in my home again. So this antagonizing the dog until it bites someone - I could also have been that owner, if I didn't intervene and make sure it never got to that point.
After finishing up the comments, a few more mentions.
I do not want to put our GS to sleep, however, from what I've found so far it seems that is my only choice. As others have mentioned, there are plenty of dogs with no bite history that need a home, and I wouldn't even feel right giving her to someone else. Especially considering the loving, structured, and consistent home she has been in since a puppy. I only have 1 daughter, and the house is not loose by any means - discipline, love, respect, and most importantly living for the Lord are the foundation of our house. We are not one of "those people" who just let dogs do what they want and make no excuses. Our GS was clear on her place in the pack. I'm not saying there is not more we could have done --- my daughter and I have tried our best to make it work while taking into account her personality. Taking away her nervous, fearful, and stand offish nature are way beyond my skill level though. Yes, my daughter is 13 years old and did know better, but her brain is still developing and she makes bad decisions and mistakes. That is one of the sources of stress in the house that I have to constantly get on her so she will tiptoe around our GS. She just wants a dog she can love on, and I can't blame her because I do too. Our GS was also a source of safety for her if she was in the home alone. In any case, it is ultimately my fault for keeping our GS in the house considering I am just unable to improve the environment. No matter how much effort I put in to raising our GS and my daughter, I cannot control what decisions they ultimately make....
After finishing up the comments, a few more mentions.
I do not want to put our GS to sleep, however, from what I've found so far it seems that is my only choice. As others have mentioned, there are plenty of dogs with no bite history that need a home, and I wouldn't even feel right giving her to someone else. Especially considering the loving, structured, and consistent home she has been in since a puppy. I only have 1 daughter, and the house is not loose by any means - discipline, love, respect, and most importantly living for the Lord are the foundation of our house. We are not one of "those people" who just let dogs do what they want and make no excuses. Our GS was clear on her place in the pack. I'm not saying there is not more we could have done --- my daughter and I have tried our best to make it work while taking into account her personality. Taking away her nervous, fearful, and stand offish nature are way beyond my skill level though. Yes, my daughter is 13 years old and did know better, but her brain is still developing and she makes bad decisions and mistakes. That is one of the sources of stress in the house that I have to constantly get on her so she will tiptoe around our GS. She just wants a dog she can love on, and I can't blame her because I do too. However, it is ultimately my fault for keeping our GS in the house considering I am just unable to improve the environment.
I totally understand the stress of the situation. Having a dog that requires skill above what you're capable or willing to deal with is such an overwhelming feeling. It really does sound like you're between a rock and a hard place
Where are you located? Try getting in touch with any local Schutzhund clubs, etc- network the crap out of her.
It's a tough situation for sure. I would also encourage you to work with a behaviourist and obviously management is key, but then again, there are worse things than being dead.
I agree with you that rehoming a biter is irresponsible and the main thing is that the dog isn't set up to be abused, neglected or bounced around from home to home, where she is going to be a risk to herself and the people in her life.
I hope you can find a way to work on training and management, but if those things are not working, than euthing is sometimes the kindest thing.
I'm very sorry you're facing this, it would break my heart completely.
Her "stand offish" nature isn't something that can be changed, with any amount of skill. This is who she is. The "nervous" and "fearful" could have been conditioned in, if she was always being harassed and being asked to be something she never was meant to be. How does your wife feel about this?
I will divulge a little more on what happened before the bite. My daughter was on the floor doing her homework with the books spread house, directly across from Bella who was laying beside the couch. Bella had one side to the couch, her rear to the wall, and my daughter was in front of her. My daughter leaned forward and said "I love you bella I love you!!", which she often does though I tell her not to, and bella bit her and got up and walked away, leaving my daughter sitting there in shock and bleeding. While my daughter knows Bella, Bella also knows my daughter and knows she would never hurt her. She should not have bit my daughter.
My wife is devastated by this, but is in agreement that we will likely have to euthanize her..... I so much want to tell her not to worry about it, that we can keep Bella. All I see is the good in Bella now, it's much harder to remember the pre-bite issues in my mind now that we pretty much know what has to be done. I feel absolutely terrible about it. In my post title, I meant to make "time to put her down" a question.... did not mean to offend with this. We live in a small town in northern Indiana.
I will divulge a little more on what happened before the bite. My daughter was on the floor doing her homework with the books spread house, directly across from Bella who was laying beside the couch. Bella had one side to the couch, her rear to the wall, and my daughter was in front of her. My daughter leaned forward and said "I love you bella I love you!!", which she often does though I tell her not to, and bella bit her and got up and walked away, leaving my daughter sitting there in shock and bleeding. While my daughter knows Bella, Bella also knows my daughter and knows she would never hurt her. She should not have bit my daughter.
My wife is devastated by this, but is in agreement that we will likely have to euthanize her..... I so much want to tell her not to worry about it, that we can keep Bella. All I see is the good in Bella now, it's much harder to remember the pre-bite issues in my mind now that we pretty much know what has to be done. I feel absolutely terrible about it. In my post title, I meant to make "time to put her down" a question.... did not mean to offend with this. We live in a small town in northern Indiana.
You're anthropomorphising here (bolded part). That's not necessarily how dogs work.
Nobody is blaming you for admitting you're in over your head with your dog, or trivializing how hard of a situation that is. People just tend to get frustrated when it was a situation that could have been avoided, and the dog will pay the price.
It's so hard to say "euthenize her" and that it's irresponsible to pass a biter off... usually that's what I would say with a dog who is clearly out of control, clearly unpredictable, and who wouldn't succeed without a ton of management. To me, this dog doesn't sound like that.
It actually gives me comfort to see these comments that stable GSD's (or other dogs) should be okay with showing affection -- petting, maybe even hugging and things like that. My daughter would still like to have a dog like this, and has always expressed her want for that before the bite, and after. I always told her to just try and love Bella the best she can... From my perspective, our GS never returned near the love that my wife showered on her either. My wife does not want to talk about getting another dog at this point, but maybe sometime.
If it was a question, then I guess you're here to ask all of us GSD enthusiasts what we would do? That's a tough one, because many of us grew up in an era when dogs did bite us, and this was something we learned not to provoke.
Some members are breeders, and they've said that you're going to need to manage her. Some members didn't have GSDs with their small children, intentionally, because they didn't think this was the best choice.
What would I do? I wouldn't PTS my dog. But I'm not in your shoes. You have to wrestle with this decision.
If it was a question, then I guess you're here to ask all of us GSD enthusiasts what we would do? That's a tough one, because many of us grew up in an era when dogs did bite us, and this was something we learned not to provoke.
This child has lived with the dog her whole life. This is not a new kid, or a new thing. The dog should not have bitten. It is not the kids fault it IS the dogs fault!
Even my FA mutt let the kids crawl all over her. It was strangers she feared not her pack.
I grew up with dogs, raised kids with dogs, and never once had a dog bite for getting a face near the dog. There is something wrong with the dog. IMO it should be put down.
Teenagers should know not to stick their faces in the dog's, especially if the dog is one that doesn't like to be touched/hung on/etc. It's everybody's fault and nobody's fault.
It's hard to say there's something wrong with the dog when the dog would be fine and thrive in a different home with actually fairly minimal management (if you know what you're dealing with). That goes back to "the ideal dog" and "the dog you have." There was absolutely nothing unpredictable about what the dog did- just the opposite, actually. I venture into destroying the dog when the behavior is unpredictable or an extraordinary level of management would be required.
I think there is something wrong with the dog, I don't have much tolerance for dogs biting kids for ANY reason. I've been around enough dogs that would eat an adult that deserved it, but wouldn't even think of nipping a child when it jumped on it's stomach. I think people need to demand more out of their dogs.
That said, YOU KNEW your dog wasn't safe in those situations. you knew it didn't like them and it was known for 5 years. SO, when you decide to keep a dog like that you must do what is necessary to keep everyone safe. Though a dog like this might not be perfect, it can live a complete, full, and happy life and so can the owners. But you have to manage situations like this.
Whatever you decide, it is your decision to make. I don't tend to judge too harshly because it's not my situation. Me? from the brief description I gathered at the beginning, I think this dog could do very well and make someone very happy in a house with no kids as a companion animal with someone willing to make sure they manage iffy situations. Lots of dogs and owners are completely happy in this situation. I'd try and rehome to a place like that with the help of a rescue. I'm of the opinion it's my dog, it's my responsibility to do the best I can for it.
If I decide I think the dog is too dangerous, I'm not giving it up to anyone, I'm putting it down. It's nobody else's decision to make, so I don't give them that opportunity.
In the meantime, you have to keep your family safe, and I think with some simple management strategies, it can be done. You might just find the dog can fit in just fine with some small changes on your part.
But whatever you decide, as long as you put honest thought and time into it, who cares what everyone else thinks?
a less than temperamentally robust dog by birth .
issues that the dog has naturally can be compounded , reinforced by very subtle rewards for that behaviour .
" In terms of her personality she often does not want to be touched or petted except by my wife. My wife spent most of the time with her the first couple years we had her, and bella is her baby. Bella in general does not want to have much to do with me or my daughter, she just prefers to not be bothered. "
maybe something in the dynamics in the relationship the dog had with the wife created a bias where the dog is rewarded , by being shielded , indulged , handled with kid gloves by one member , and more matter of fact by other family members. Of course the dog would prefer the one who babies her , setting up a us - against them . When the dog is stressed she runs to mommy and is rewarded.
All behaviour is the result of complex interplay between genes and environment .
a less than temperamentally robust dog by birth .
issues that the dog has naturally can be compounded , reinforced by very subtle rewards for that behaviour .
" In terms of her personality she often does not want to be touched or petted except by my wife. My wife spent most of the time with her the first couple years we had her, and bella is her baby. Bella in general does not want to have much to do with me or my daughter, she just prefers to not be bothered. "
maybe something in the dynamics in the relationship the dog had with the wife created a bias where the dog is rewarded , by being shielded , indulged , handled with kid gloves by one member , and more matter of fact by other family members. Of course the dog would prefer the one who babies her , setting up a us - against them . When the dog is stressed she runs to mommy and is rewarded.
All behaviour is the result of complex interplay between genes and environment .
This is what I meant earlier in regards to my friend's dog. The dog is nervy to begin with, and she is not equipped nor knowledgeable enough to handle this dog. People won't come over to her house anymore and the dog is only happy at home with 'mom'.
I agree that the dog doesn't sound stable to me at all. This is a very difficult decision and I'm sorry that you have to bear the burden. If you are able to have a trainer that you feel is knowledgeable in this area, you could have an evaluation. But I agree with others here who have said this is not the average GSD.
I'm sorry your daughter got hurt. I hope she heals quickly.
I'm curious though, did you get the GS from a breeder? Have you contacted them to see if they would be able to help? Either by taking the dog back and working with her or finding a better suitable home?
Without seeing and observing this dog in her current environment you cannot possibly say she can easily thrive in a new environment.
The current owners have missed much with this dog and lack the knowledge to identify her behaviour and causes thereof. There could be a ton of posturing going on that has been missed possibly making this dog more dangerous then even they know.
If not pts.....a reputable trainer needs to be brought in to assess before any consideration is given to rehoming.
For me any future bite whether in my home or not would still be my fault. My mother rehomed our Afghan when I was young because he bit my friend. Two years later he bit a baby sleeping. My mother was devastated.
My heart goes out to this young girl. A young girl that loves this dog unconditionally. Loves this dog even though she cannot interact with it. Leans forward to say "I love you Bella". This dog inflicts a serious bite and now this young girl sees her parents are devastated...she is no doubt devastated. She did NOT deserve this and I hope her parents are making sure she knows this is not her fault. The dog would be the least of my worries right now.
My heart goes out to this young girl. A young girl that loves this dog unconditionally. Loves this dog even though she cannot interact with it. Leans forward to say "I love you Bella". This dog inflicts a serious bite and now this young girl sees her parents are devastated...she is no doubt devastated. She did NOT deserve this and I hope her parents are making sure she knows this is not her fault. The dog would be the least of my worries right now.
Thank you for that reminder Saphire. We are definitely trying to be loving to our daughter about this situation. When I first walked in, I held her while she cried and told her how sorry I was, I did my best to comfort her and clean up and bandage the wounds. I even shared to her how helpless I felt, there was nothing I could do to Bella, nothing I could do to take back what was done. Later, I also made sure she knew what she did was wrong, that she made a bad choice and there are consequences from that. This is definitely a life lesson for her. --- now and going forward, we need to be sure to continue to be loving towards her, and for her to know that her part is forgiven and she is loved no matter what. It is understandable for her to feel some guilt and blame, but she is forgiven (grace), and will hopefully learn and grow from it. I and my wife need to be sure not to let this weigh on our daughter in an unhealthy way. To be honest, my wife struggles with wanting to blame our daughter, and wants her to be as upset about it as she is. We can’t let that happen, and need to focus on moving forward, and the good memories. The other bummer is that our GSD was a source of protection for the wife and daughter if I wasn't around.
I have come full circle back to what Jack's Dad said. Bella is not what a family dog should be. Having a dog should be fun and enjoyable, not stressful and miserable. If my family dog bit one of us in the face, I wouldn't even be on here having this discussion. This dog cannot simply be passed on to another home. I don't know anyone who is looking for this type of dog. I would free Bella of her demons and allow my family to heal. That is what I would do. The OP, needs to do what is right for his family. Only they can make that difficult decision.
I have to say -- I am so grateful and blessed that I found this site and posted on it. I am amazed by the variety of opinions and experiences shared by loving people who actually care. I am also inspired by pictures such as Shepherdsmom. I know in my heart what needs to be done, and reading through everyone's thoughts and comments has allowed me to really think things through, without letting the emotions cloudy and muddy things up too much.
I also want to say though, the dog was not cornered with no way out. It was wide open to the side, and that’s where she went after biting. Additionally, she is up to date on all meds, no apparent health issues. She has always been on K9 Advantix 2 for fleas/ticks. Unfortunately, with her nerves and anxiety, it does not surprise me that she decided to bite, and I should have taken action before….
OP, I'm wondering: is your wife the one who always feeds you dog, and is your dog allowed on your furniture? Because if the answer is "yes" to both, then simply changing that will make a world of difference in the dynamics. I can attest to that.
We did get our GS from a breeder, not sure if they are still breeding though. Funny now that you mention it though, my sister had gotten a female GS from the same breeder, which she put down a couple years ago due to aggression. They had a completely different family environment from us.
This dog has not bitten before, nor did we think that she would bite, especially family. It was such a horrible and helpless feeling to walk in the door and see what Bella had done to my daughter, and to be able to do nothing about it. Prior to the bite, we had managed the nervousness, anxiety, fear in our GS the best we could. We all fed her, let her out to the bathroom, brushed her, disciplined her, played with her, took her on walks, gave her treats. This wasn't a matter of us letting her get away with being a baby with the wife, and not being accountable to us. The dog was not allowed on any furniture, though my wife does like to lay on the floor with her.
We did get our GS from a breeder, not sure if they are still breeding though. Funny now that you mention it though, my sister had gotten a female GS from the same breeder, which she put down a couple years ago due to aggression. They had a completely different family environment from us.
This dog has not bitten before, nor did we think that she would bite, especially family. It was such a horrible and helpless feeling to walk in the door and see what Bella had done to my daughter, and to be able to do nothing about it. Prior to the bite, we had managed the nervousness, anxiety, fear in our GS the best we could. We all fed her, let her out to the bathroom, brushed her, disciplined her, played with her, took her on walks, gave her treats. This wasn't a matter of us letting her get away with being a baby with the wife, and not being accountable to us.
If this description is accurate, your belovd GSD is not wired correctly and is not stable. Nothing can undo what has been done but you can prevent it from happening to anyone ever again.
Nothing will change the fact that this dog is, and always has been, a nerve bag.
There isn't always an excuse or a solution to something. I don't like using clichés, but in this case, it really is what it is.
No family member the dog has always has been around should be bitten in the face. I don't care if it there is couch access, no couch access, training, no training.
Not everything can be saved or improved or fixed.
Bella also knows my daughter and knows she would never hurt her. "
__________________
failed to complete my thought. there was a reply "You're anthropomorphising here (bolded part). That's not necessarily how dogs work"
and if she did ? even accidentally ? the response was over the top , too defensive from the dog.
hurt is part of life. A few wicked winters ago we had a thick sheet of glare ice making walking impossible. Still chores have to be done , dogs need to get out , be fed and watered. My pattern is that when I am out there is always or two of my dogs running free . This time I had one out with me . He lost his footing and bambied into me , flipping me off my feet, bucket flying . Our trajectory meets and I land on top of him like a foot ball tackle , and we continue to spin.
If ever there was a moment which could induce panic in the dog , that would have been it . Had I received a snap I would have forgiven it .
But I did not . The relationship was solid . The dog was solid . There was no avoidance . The dog got up , we hobbled back to the house where I got more water and we continue.
Hurt - when I groom my long coat , Gus's sire , to rip out burdocks that he collects from the wanders in the back field , that hurts , and no bite , a little wiggling fuss , but that is all. No animosity .
Step on a toe when backing up and a dog is following too close behind , a yelp , no bite to my calf.
The vet -- bet this dog had some major problems being treated .
It is very very very hard to imagine an unsocial , anti social dog as a fine companion dog , given a better family situation , because the dog is not companionable.
What a sad situation for your family and your dog. Although your dog sounds fearful, she has not previously been fear-aggressive. Have you checked her thyroid hormone levels? Low thyroid sometimes results in changes in behavior that can be reversed with treatment. Sorry if this has already been ruled out.
I hope you find a solution for your family and your dog, if at all possible
My daughter leaned forward and said "I love you bella I love you!!", which she often does though I tell her not to,
13 yr old girl should know better
dog relies on u to keep people out of her space
at 13 she should listen to you as this is proof positive
what happens when you disobey
what your parents are telling you
this isnt an excuse for the dog but obviously
you have learned to read dog body language
13 yr old needs a crash course in doing so
did you look at Family Paws-New parent classes dog and baby ?
the whole website is devoted to helping
people look at how dogs are really quite
uncomfortable when children invade their space
for those crowing about how
my dog lets children crawl all over it
read the site
your dog is a good dog with good breeding
or at least not genetically flawed breedings
but you are still asking for it
dogs who have bitten kids all start out like that
owners letting kids crawl all over it
then being shocked when the dog bites
u could have see it coming a mile away!
too classic ! " directly across from Bella who was laying beside the couch. Bella had one side to the couch, her rear to the wall, and my daughter was in front of her"
visualize this . the dog , from the dogs perspective , with low tolerance levels to proximity WAS CORNERED . no way to back out , back away , bite . quote " bella bit her and got up and walked away"
I sympathize with your daughter and your family. However, this may not make me popular, and not meant to be harsh/judgemental, I'm ok with that
This dog has lived in your family for 5 years with no bite history, sure temperament issues, not a sound/stable dog, your daughter is 13 and should absolutely know better since she was told before to not put her face in the dogs face.
I am not excusing what the dog did by any means, totally unacceptable, BUT she nailed her got up and walked away. She could have done alot more damage (not that she hasn't already) and NOT walked away.
There's blame to go around, but then again, no one's to blame. The dog will suffer because the dog is the offender.
What happens if you get another and the same thing happens?
I feel terrible for your daughter, I feel bad for the dog who's going to pay with her life. No one wins in this situation
"
your dog is a good dog with good breeding
or at least not genetically flawed breedings
but you are still asking for it
dogs who have bitten kids all start out like that"
this is wrong -- even in the von Stephanitz book there is a special attention drawn to the GSD being a lover of children, tolerant of the young -- I can pull the page and quote -- but not today
Doesn't anyone else find it odd the dog never liked the child from the beginning? Most dogs, nerve bags they may be, whether they don't like "other" children, like their own. Blaming this girl for showing affection to her (in her eyes, I guarantee-- 'beautiful') GSD is ridiculous.
(Not that I'm saying you're doing that Diane.)
But I guess I could see more if this was a friend over of the daughter's, dog didn't know. But a quiet evening at home with just the two of them involved in this incident? I don't like it.
a home-dog should not have everyone walking on eggshells. Life is supposed to be joyful and spontaneous .
What if it had been a friend of the 13 year old ?
lol -- it happened again rocket dog and I asking about a friend at the same time
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Related Threads
?
?
?
?
?
German Shepherds Forum
2.6M posts
121.9K members
Since 2002
A forum community dedicated to all German Shepherd owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about bloodlines, training, breeding, service dogs, and more!