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My GS bit my daughter, time to put down

56K views 375 replies 60 participants last post by  ken k 
#1 · (Edited)
We have had our female german shepherd for 5 years, named bella. She is well trained in the usual commands, and even goes to the bathroom where we want in her kennel. She has always been an indoor dog, except for exercise or if we're away for hours we leave her in our fenced in yard. In terms of her personality she often does not want to be touched or petted except by my wife. My wife spent most of the time with her the first couple years we had her, and bella is her baby. Bella in general does not want to have much to do with me or my daughter, she just prefers to not be bothered.

The other day, Bella was sitting on the ground and Abby put her face close to Bella's face, saying she loved her. Bella then proceeded to bite Abby on the nose, causing a large cut, a puncture, internal bleeding and bruising. Bella had never bit anyone before, but Abby did know that she shouldn't be in Bella's face.

At this point, since Bella bit our daughter after being in our family 5 years, I think we have to have her put down. She is so anxious and skittish as it is, and I would not trust her in being around other people or kids. We don't have any behavioral specialists near our small town, even if we did have the time and ability to put in multiple hours trying to cure her anxieties. This is obviously a very difficult decision, especially for my wife. Not sure what I'm looking for in posting this....but feel free to respond with any thoughts.
 
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#32 ·
Just my 2 cents, for what its worth.
First. Sorry about your situation.
We have two dogs, a GSD male, and a female Malamute. We like to think we are bringing them up as happy, non-agressive dogs. And they are very happy. My girlfriends son is 8 years old, the dogs are both around 1 year old. They are never alone, never allowed to play rough, he has to pet the dogs properly. We watch them interact.
If either one of our dogs bit him, even once, they'd have to die. It's just the way I feel.
 
#33 ·
The dog shouldn't be put down, because the dog didn't do anything wrong. When a puppy jumps on the adult dog - that one will correct the puppy by biting in the muzzle. When a child tries to hug the dog - the reaction would be the same. Just the skin is of a different type, child's skin is not protected by fur. This behaviour is not agressive, in fact, it is of a parental - the dog meant to teach the girl better manners. The dog would not do it again if the girl doesn't pester the dog with petting, patting and hugging, but rather play ball. Dogs are great with kids outdoors, not indoors, because they cannot escape anywhere.
In order to train your dog to tolerate touch of strangers you need a trainer. Otherwise, you know, people tend to raise hand above dog's head, and dogs recognize it as human agression. I warn every stranger who wants to pet my dog not to do that, only to scratch under her chin. It always better to ask the dog, would he like to be petted or not. If he likes, he would come to the stranger/unknown child himself.
 
#35 · (Edited)
Ya know, I would almost agree with you on this, except for the severity of the bite. I had Babs and Karma at the park yesterday with a couple of kids. Karma is used to being with her mother who is totally permissive with her pups. Karma turned 1 on January 29th. Babs is Jenna's (pup's dam) littermate. She's 8 1/2 years old. The pup was being a spazz, and pestering Babs, and Babs is not usually around Karma. She knows her, but she is not ever loose with her. Sometimes she is loose with Hepzibah who is almost 2. While she is tolerant, she is not nearly as tolerant as Jenna.

She ended up snapping twice at the puppy's muzzle. These were little pops. And no connection at all. I then separated them and put them back into the car. GSDs are perfectly capable of giving a correction to a lesser pack member without breaking the skin. Some of them make noise so it sounds awful. Babs did not. It was simple communication, "I've had enough Sprout!" And I took the hint and managed the situation.

Dog's can rip each other up too. If they want to. Their hide is not so thick that canine teeth do not penetrate.

I think that with the added information that this dog is very anxious, my take is that the dog was protecting itself. It took the person in its face as a threat and bit out as a fearful reaction to what it took as a threat.

Why the dog is like this, probably weak nerves. Management is the ONLY way to deal with this. And if this is a child, then you have to really search long and hard about whether you want your kid to never be able to bring friends over, and if you want to possibly subject her to more of the same. I think it is pretty cut and dried. If she is an adult, then it gets trickier.

We have a fear-reactive dog whose triggers are well-known. Don't get in this dog's face, manage her environment to keep her below her threshold. Crate her when you have friends over. You do not have to kill the dog. It really isn't that the dog is bad, it is more that the dog has a problem. The dog does not seem unpredictable.

It's a hard choice. I think the age of the daughter does make a difference, as well as how familiar the dog should be with the daughter. If the daughter is there for two weeks in the summer and a few weekends the rest of the time, I don't know if the dog should feel all that familiar with her so that she sees her as a member of the family that she should trust completely, and tolerate completely.
 
#37 ·
No, you can't expect all GSDs to have stellar nerves. But a GSD that is raised with children should be pretty darn tolerant. I don't have kids, so I have to borrow my nieces, and my dogs only get to interact with them sometimes. A pup that is raised with children should be totally comfortable with the way kids run and scream, and rough house, and let them do pretty much anything, play with their tail, their ears, dig their hands in their food dish.

If a dog is painful -- bad hips or something and a child jumps on them, the dog might growl or snap, because it is hurt, or to tell the child to be careful. It should not bite, not right away. Often the first sign of a painful condition is some form of aggression.

Certainly dogs should be respected. A child should not be allowed to lay on top of the dog, ride the dog, kick the dog, shove pencils down it ears, or dig around in the food dish or bother it while it is eating.
 
#39 ·
Thanks Selzer. That sounds like a very reasonable response and one with which I agree. You have helped ease my worries a bit as a first time owner of a GSD who is currently a major landshark. I have 3 kids of my own and several nieces and nephews who are often over and I can't imagine the drama I would be put through with my in-laws if something happened never mind issues regarding euthanising the dog! I too feel that if a puppy is raised with kids then an acceptable amount of carry on from the kids should be accepted. I would never allow any child to do anything mean or harmful to a dog and would also not allow them to continue to interact with my puppy if they had been playing too long and I could see she'd had enough, or if I thought she wanted to go to sleep. In fact, my SIL commented to me that one of her young kids (age 6) can be a bit spiteful to dogs and in her opinion, if he gets bitten that's his own darn fault (though I'd still rather that happens with someone else's dog and not mine!) I guess this is where having a crate for your puppy comes in really handy. If you have any hyper kids coming over.....in they go. As for the kids who live with them though I'd like to think that all my babies, fur and human should be able to live in safety together. I do tell them not to put their faces right in Penny's but at the same time have done that a little bit myself to she how she responds and to get her used to it.
 
#40 ·
From your post it sounds like it's your kids fault, you knew the dog didn't like your wife and kid. So, why let them interact? It reminds me of my childhood, When I was three my older brother had gotten a Black Lab puppy. I was bitten by the black lab, Shadow when he was a year, I got stitches on my right check. But, to this day I remember it was not the dogs fault but, my own childish behavior of smuggling the dogs face and pulling his ears. My family still has the dog. I never hold him biting me against him, he is like a family member. When I was a bit older I was bitten on the thigh by a GSD at a friends birthday when I was pretending to push over my friend. Yet again I blame my own stupidity, I now own a GSD. So, think about it from different view points.
 
#45 ·
The dog has managed to live for five years without an incident.

Now there has been an incident.

With some management, and understanding, maybe the dog could live another five years without an incident. The key is management. The age of the family member that was bitten is significant in determining whether or not the dog should really be put down in my opinion.

when you raise a pup from puppy on up, and have it for five years, I don't know if you should consider rehoming due to aggression. I think that if you can work with the dog, you work with the dog, if not you have the dog euthanized. For dogs that bite small children, the idea of rehoming to someone without small children sounds good, but the fact is, people without small children have contact with them. They sometimes have to rehome the dog for reasons of their own, and if they haven't seen the dog in action, they might not disclose the incident or the problems. A dog that seriously bites a small child without being in severe pain, total distress like drowning or something, a pencil down the ear maybe, well the dog needs to be freed from its demons.

I think people really need to take responsibility for dogs they have raised for five years, and not shift the responsibility onto a third party.
 
#47 ·
Just to be clear I did not specifically recommend euthanasia.

My point was that some on here automatically assume people are idiots and any incident with a dog is their fault. I can't say what their decision should be but there are not a lot of options.

There have been threads where some have admitted they like dogs better than people. Their choice.

I raised four kids and as much as I love dogs they will never be equal to, or better than my children. My kids safety was the most important thing to me.
 
#50 ·
haha I'm one that said I like dogs better than most people. Most people don't include my children. They always came first.

I had a non GSD with FA. She had to always be managed with outsiders. But she was fine with pack. Had she ever even hinted that she would go for one of the kids she would have been PTS
 
#48 · (Edited)
Selzer also mentioned the fact that you don't have to have your own children for your dog to come in contact with children.

Last week I met with a board member from here for coffee. We ventured into a Big Lots store and I had Gus with me for socializing and exposure. There were two little girls..hmmm 6-7 yrs old if I had to guess...running around the store screaming and playing like young kids do. Gus was watchig them as was I. I was watching Gus watch them and trying hard to keep an eye on where they were etc. I had one of them in view when I felt Gus jump. I turned to see the little girl giving Gus a bear hug from behind, arms wrapped around Gus' waist quite enjoying herself. Gus was calm and looking at me puzzled. I had to peel this little girl off him. I was annoyed..not with the child but with the dad who eventually came along. I told him he should teach his children how to approach dogs and to ask permission. He was offended and said "he is obviously trained so what is the issue". This whole event took only a couple minutes and happened so quickly. Gus is a solid dog who has had no interaction with young children, I was being vigilent but it can happen and so quickly. With the dog in question, this same event would be deadly. HUGE responsibility and a fail has already resulted in a serious bite taking place.

If you choose to manage this dog the stakes are massive. This dog needs to be crated when anyone other than you and your wife are in the house. If this dog leaves the house for any reason she must be muzzled. There must be NO chances taken ever again. She must never be outside in your yard unsupervised even if fully fenced. The list goes on and on.....EVERY precaution must be taken to keep the public AND your family safe.
 
#51 ·
When I was a child I was told what could and could not be done with a dog and I was monitored. I don't see this as being the dogs fault. It's the owners fault and the dog now has to pay the price. Some people should not have animals.
 
#57 ·
Very sad indeed. My words to every child my dog comes in contact with is told to hold out their hand and keep their face as far as possible. Again, maybe this was a slip up, but the dog was violated, reacted and the ending is terrible for the child and the animal. Some people just don't get it and it hurts, period every time. My pup's name is Bella, every child and adult will be instructed to not nose the dog and never left alone with her..SORRY !! :eek:(....
 
#60 ·
If it is a younger child, I think you have to bite the bullet and put the dog down. A younger child should not have to live in a house with a dog that will do that to them. Sorry.

If this is an older child or an adult, then you need to make a decision. You need to decide whether you can commit to providing the management the dog needs. And ensure that nothing of the kind happens again.

5-7 years is a long time.

I really don't understand this bite at all. A scaredy-dog that isn't attached to a tether should have gone the other way. A dog that is punishing an breech of etiquette should not have punctured and cut up in the bite. I do think it makes sense to understand the why of the bite, if we are planning on trying to manage the dog rather than put it down.
 
#65 ·
>>>We have had our female german shepherd for 5 years, named bella. She is well trained in the usual commands, and even goes to the bathroom where we want in her kennel. She has always been an indoor dog, except for exercise or if we're away for hours we leave her in our fenced in yard. In terms of her personality she often does not want to be touched or petted except by my wife. My wife spent most of the time with her the first couple years we had her, and bella is her baby. Bella in general does not want to have much to do with me or my daughter, she just prefers to not be bothered. <<<< (quote)

This should of been the first clue for possible disaster, and should of been discussed and handled years ago.:(
 
#66 ·
from page one

"In terms of her personality she often does not want to be touched or petted except by my wife. My wife spent most of the time with her the first couple years we had her, and bella is her baby. Bella in general does not want to have much to do with me or my daughter, she just prefers to not be bothered."

Some indiscretion by the man , the OP may have met with a similar bite . Seems like the OP was wary of the dog , who favoured his wife only. Who knows why the problem exists .
 
#67 ·
lol - pretty well the same ideas from loneforce.

as I said who knows why the problem exists . There may be some family dysfunction , the dog is used to act out hostility . The dog may have exhibited behaviour which was manipulated and exploited to the detriment of the dog -- rather than swiftly corrected.

we had a forum member who laughed about sicking the dog on the wife as a joke , for fun , the dog who had issues .

I think this incident is the tip of the iceberg . Probably a lot of free and spontaneous activity in the house has been curtailed or inhibited "because of the dog" --

is the dog's life miserable ? does the dog enjoy a good social life or does its temperament or issues reduce contact to the house, the yard, the wife .
 
#68 ·
lol - pretty well the same ideas from loneforce.

as I said who knows why the problem exists . There may be some family dysfunction , the dog is used to act out hostility . The dog may have exhibited behaviour which was manipulated and exploited to the detriment of the dog -- rather than swiftly corrected.

we had a forum member who laughed about sicking the dog on the wife as a joke , for fun , the dog who had issues .

I think this incident is the tip of the iceberg . Probably a lot of free and spontaneous activity in the house has been curtailed or inhibited "because of the dog" --

is the dog's life miserable ? does the dog enjoy a good social life or does its temperament or issues reduce contact to the house, the yard, the wife .

I remember this.


Also, about the dog exhibiting behavior that was manipulated and exploited-- I have a friend with a dog that is not the most stable and she does this exact same thing: exploiting, manipulating and making excuses for the behavior instead of managing and training what she can. The dog has bitten people several times.
 
#70 ·
There has to be more to this. Possibly the dog did not know the child that long.


My female shepherd has been raised with kids of all ages since eight weeks old and I have seen the most random children (invited over for birthday parties) sit behind her and prop their feet up on her. I've seen small Infants play with her ears and kiss her and she gently kisses them back and if she's ever annoyed or irritated she just gets up and moves to the other side of the room. Never bites, never growls , never snarls.


Maybe like mentioned before there is something medically wrong going on they don't know about.

Really wish the OP would update. We need more info !


Sent from Petguide.com Free App
 
#72 · (Edited)
Take your dog to a rescue. Let her live the rest of her life out.
As others have already pointed out, once a dog has a bite history, it will be almost universally rejected by rescues -- they can't take that liability on, for good reason. I don't know of any GSRs that will accept an owner-surrendered dog with a known bite history--especially this kind of bite.

Moreover, the purpose of rescue is not for owners to conveniently pass on the problems they themselves have created. There are many, many purebred dogs in kill-shelters who have no bite history, who have done well on a shelter temperament test, who are likely to be good family dogs--all waiting for foster spots in rescue. Those dogs don't have this history and are more adoptable. They are, quite frankly, a better use of scarce rescue resources.

Rescues don't have unlimited foster spots or money. Hard decisions have to be made on a daily basis among good dogs, for lack of foster space. Resolving this kind of issue (whether through management, behavior mod, euth or private rehoming) should be the owner's burden, not the rescues'. I hope the owner seeks some professional assistance to help with the decision -- a good behaviorist would be invaluable, even if the consultation had to be done remotely with lots of video of the dog, particularly in regards to consulting on the need for any "final" decisions.
 
#73 ·
Mocha this is good that your dog indulges this kind of treatment

"My female shepherd has been raised with kids of all ages since eight weeks old and I have seen the most random children (invited over for birthday parties) sit behind her and prop their feet up on her. I've seen small Infants play with her ears and kiss her and she gently kisses them back and if she's ever annoyed or irritated she just gets up and moves to the other side of the room. Never bites, never growls , never snarls"

BUT the best bite prevention is to have those kids taught this is not how to act with a dog , especially a dog that is not their own . They may attempt to hug or kiss the next dog with disasterous consequences.

socializing is a two way street
 
#74 · (Edited)
Wow - I did not expect this kind of response. I was waiting to get a email when a reply was made on the forum, and never did so I figured no one had responded yet. I really appreciate and am grateful for all the feedback, good and bad, and still have much more to read but I thought I would clarify a few things based on what I've already read.

Our GS if 5 years old and we've had her since she was a puppy. Our daughter is 13 years old and has always lived with us.

When I say I don't trust her now, it is because she bit my daughter. Our GS has had a very loving home and a great life. She prefers to be inside when we are inside, and has plenty of room outside when we are not. She has boundaries in the home, like she cannot go in the kitchen or the bathroom. She gets exercise, but generally just likes to follow my wife around. She is also well trained, and if we had a failure in that regard, it would be that she wasn't socialized enough. She is just not the kind of dog that like to be petted too much, wrestled with, hugged, things like that. She is also skittish, always cowering from me - she just seems to fear men in general.

She has always been a loved part of our family, however, it has been a constant source of frustration for our daughter and I that we can't give her much affection, cannot wrestle with her, etc and she usually moans at us if we touch her.... I have spoken to my wife in the past about finding a new home for our GS because of the stress it causes my daughter and I. Our daughter definitely knew better then to be "bothering" our GS, or to be in it's face, and we constantly are reminding her of this. In the end, I cannot control her 24/7 any more then I can the dog, unfortunately. Now that the GS has bitten her, I feel she will be an even bigger source of stress in the house.

I have found out that we have to wait 10 days to even put her down, due to state law. Which would mean March 3rd is the earliest. I will be looking to see if there are any options of a new home in the meantime, but it seems doubtful....

---hope this helps answer some questions. I will continue reading through the comments and post again as needed.
 
#75 · (Edited)
Germans shepherds do have the reputation of being a 'one person' type dog. I haven't found that to always be true but it is in your case. You shouldn't find it frustrating, it happens and happened with our family dogs in the past. Sometimes they bond to one person more then others. That's just the way it is and your and your daughters frustration probably made it worse, the dog could sense that.

I guess growing up on a farm in the 60s and 70s and having been around many animals I'll tell you what my Dad would have told me if I went into the pen with a mean old cow, angry rooster or a dog that had 'moaned' and warned me many times to give it space....then got hurt at age 13.... This is exactly what my father did and would have told me "Did you learn something?"

Yes you have a difficult dog and not sticking your face in a dogs face is rule number one for adults and kids.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be harsh, but you set this dog up to fail.
 
#78 · (Edited)
Germans shepherds do have the reputation of being a 'one person' type dog. I haven't found that to always be true but it is in your case. You shouldn't find it frustrating, it happens and happened with our family dogs in the past. Sometimes they bond to one person more then others. That's just the way it is and your and your daughters frustration probably made it worse, the dog could sense that.

I guess growing up on a farm in the 60s and 70s and having been around many animals I'll tell you what my Dad would have told me if I went into the pen with a mean old cow, angry rooster or a dog that had 'moaned' and warned me many times to give it space....then got hurt at age 13.... This is exactly what my father did and would have told me "Did you learn something?"

Yes you have a difficult dog and not sticking your face in a dogs face is rule number one for adults and kids.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be harsh, but you set this dog up to fail.

Now that I'm hearing that the daughter is 13 (and not a small child who "doesn't know any better")... I agree with this. YOU knew better. Your daughter is certainly old enough to know better.

My dog is as tolerant as they come and I would NEVER allow someone to put their face close to his. With small children, accidents happen. Your daughter is a teenager.

It's all well and good to say dogs should tolerate kids being kids. But to a dog, your daughter is pretty much an adult. People talk about the ideal of what a dog "should" tolerate, but that doesn't apply to every situation (some dogs just aren't tolerant... does that mean they should be culled?). You've known what this dog was for five years. Taking a standoffish dog, who is actually quite predictable, and putting her in a situation where her space is violated and being shocked when she reacts is failing her.

Try very hard to find a home for the dog. She sounds like she would be successful in a home experienced with the breed (I don't mean that you're not, but you are looking for a family-loving pet) and willing to put in some time and work. She doesn't sound like an unpredictable, off-the-wall biter. It sounds more like the dog doesn't mesh with your lifestyle than that the dog is dangerous- I totally get the stress that can bring, but that doesn't mean the dog should die.
 
#76 · (Edited)
I've read up through page 4 of these comments so far, and wanted to add a few more comments.

There are a lot of really good and thoughtful posts, a few that I wanted to mention so far.

Taggart mentioned that the dogs are generally better with the kids outside, I agree. ---- However, our GS spends much time in the house and wants to be.

Jack's Dad - mentions not wanting to spend life tiptoeing around the dog, it should be enhancing the family life, not a source of stress. ---- I totally agree with this, and that is why I've brought up trying to find her a new home in the past, but my wife would hear none of it until now. We don't want to need to worry about having visitors/friends/etc... over to visit and put a muzzle on her or something like that. There is stress without visitors, and it is very much increased with visitors.

Selzer --- many good comments and is reading correctly that this is a fear reactive, nervous fear biting dog with know problems and triggers. The only reason we haven't had issues in the past is because of constant vigilance and limiting contact with her. However, back to Jack's Dad, this is not how life should be with a dog.


I have to reiterate that this is an extremely difficult decision that we don't take lightly, as she has been considered a daughter since we got her as a puppy. However, her nervous, fearful nature was a stress to our 13 year old daughter and I before this happened, and at this point I feel responsible that I didn't take action earlier to find a new home or euthanize. It still does not seem likely we will find a new home.

As far as my daughter's injuries - she is healing extremely well, fand if we're lucky, may only have slight scarring if any, praise God. I also don't believe she has any emotional problems from this.
 
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