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Growled at my mom while she was hugging her.

7K views 60 replies 22 participants last post by  Blanketback 
#1 ·
So I wasn't there. But when my mom was going to put Zelda back in her crate in my room after letting her out for potty break and hang out, she said she hugged Zelda while Zelda was sitting on my bed, and she stood over her, put her arms around Zelda and she said she thought she growled at her.

Unsure what to think about this or the action i should take.

Zelda has never growled at any family member before, but there is a first for everything.

Should I treat her with tougher NILIF as if she did for sure growl at my mom, and involve my family in it more so? To stop this behavior before it gets worse and or continues.
Or should i act as if it didn't happen and only do something when i am sure she actually growled?

Also how do i tell my 13 year old sister in better way, that Zelda is not a teddy bear, and she needs to be treated more like a dog, especially at being a year old and being a rowdy girl as a teenager! I've told this to her. I dont want to say that she could act aggressive (i dont think it will happen, but i think they test limits at this stage so you never know and if my mom is right, who says my little sister isn't next), because i dont want my sister having bad energy towards Zelda. I'm just worried one of these days Zelda is going to tell her "ENOUGH" in a mean way, i mean even a growl from Zelda would ruin her relationship (my little sister is very sensitive) I tell her dogs are NOT teddy bears! I don't think she gets it.. Suggestions?

*I'm trying not to get worked up over this as she may or may not have.. but i do NOT want Zelda getting naughty with my family. And if there is a possibility i want to nip it in the bud before it escalates.

Thanks guys!
 
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#2 ·
she was on the bed? well that could be a guarding my bed issue.

OR, I know she has bad hips, it could have been a "don't touch me I'm in pain issue".

Or some dogs are not comfortable being 'hugged'..

I would explain to your sister , that since zelda has bad hips, she is sometimes in pain, tho may not show it..so you have to be careful how you physically treat her.
 
#3 ·
Ya, i guess that is what my mom said..
Very good point Diane, it very well could have involved her hippies.

She usually takes some hugging and "cuddling" but she is not a cuddly dog, she will walk away usually if you do this, unless she is tired and even then.

Ok sounds good i will try and see if that resonates with her :)
 
#9 ·
She probably never liked it but is getting older and more assertive. She has a little bit of "don't eff with me."

If you want to do something about it make her associate hugging with good things. Give her a hug mark it with a yes like you would obedience or with a clicker if you insist on the extra equipment and then slip her some treats. Rinse and repeat. She will learn to love hugs.

It's a good exercise to do with new puppies. Sorta rush at them with arms held out excitedly saying their name or puuuuuuuppy! Mark it then give food immediately. They learn to deal with people approaching them like an idiot.
 
#11 ·
I will try this to condition hugging to positive things. :)

Ya know, I really don't like this. I have had little kids come up behind my dog in a store while I was paying and hug the dog. I have my nieces that do not live with me hug my dogs and stare into their eyes -- I know that could be a challenge. And at the vet, sometimes a vet tech needs to wrap their arm around the dog's head and neck area so the vet or another tech can take blood or deal with something less than fun.

If I had a one year old dog growling at a family member, then that dog would be OFF the bed and going through some major boot camp. I probably would not feed the dog anymore, and food would come from the person that was growled at, AFTER that person told the dog to sit, and stay.

Young dogs should not be asserting themselves against family members, adult or children, or the household and all its members human and canine will need to learn some Behavior Modification.

If your dog is on the bed growling at your mother, then whatever you are doing in the area of leadership and training is not working, and you need to get this in hand now, if you don't want a very sad outcome.
What would your boot camp look like? How would you get it in hand?
 
#10 ·
Ya know, I really don't like this. I have had little kids come up behind my dog in a store while I was paying and hug the dog. I have my nieces that do not live with me hug my dogs and stare into their eyes -- I know that could be a challenge. And at the vet, sometimes a vet tech needs to wrap their arm around the dog's head and neck area so the vet or another tech can take blood or deal with something less than fun.

If I had a one year old dog growling at a family member, then that dog would be OFF the bed and going through some major boot camp. I probably would not feed the dog anymore, and food would come from the person that was growled at, AFTER that person told the dog to sit, and stay.

Young dogs should not be asserting themselves against family members, adult or children, or the household and all its members human and canine will need to learn some Behavior Modification.

If your dog is on the bed growling at your mother, then whatever you are doing in the area of leadership and training is not working, and you need to get this in hand now, if you don't want a very sad outcome.
 
#12 ·
Sometimes i wonder if she is too advanced for me..
Because i feel like i'm trying a lot, and i keep trying to add new things. And I spend a lot of my time, dedication, commitment, love, energy and money into. I feel like i'm giving her 100%. And she has so many behavioral problems that i think are improving but not at a very fast rate.

If i made more money i would be seeing a trainer once a week, i dont think i can afford that though. But i think thats what we need, at the least.
 
#13 ·
How knowledgeable is your mom about dogs? I know all three of my dogs (metro who is passed included) grumble when being hugged and cuddled is not a growl or anywhere aggressive, it's their version of the "ahhhhhhh" or a sigh when we big someone we love. Could it have been that?

Sent from Petguide.com Free App
 
#21 · (Edited)
I was going to say the same thing. Especially since she said she wasnt sure it was a growl. Usually u can be sure when a dog growls at you. Grumbling sometimes ur not to sure unless ur watching them. Dexter grumbles alot when some family members hug him. He also grumbles when hes stretching, wants to be next to u but u make him stay etc.
 
#15 ·
Thats what i hope and think it i could be, she is a very moany, groany, rooing, barky girl..

But i do not want to take away from the fact that she could have, as i asked my mom if she was positive it was a growl, and she was pretty sure. So i want to be sure i'm not just thinking what i want to think.
 
#17 ·
I'm not dealing with this problem. I have never dealt with a dog that had aggression toward a family member -- someone living in the house. So I think I am not qualified to give you the best advice.

I would probably go to classes once a week. A trainer costs a lot more than sets of group-classes. I would work on the stuff in the class every day, to build the bond between me and the dog, and go to the class each week to work around distractions, other dogs and their owners.

But, dogs do respond differently to different types of leadership, just like we do. I don't do NILIF, but if I had a dog that did what your dog did, I would definitely read up on it, and start doing it.

Maybe if I did do NILIF, and I had a dog act that way, I would find a different type of leadership to try and adjust -- whatever I am doing isn't working with this dog.

Training too, if I was doing mostly positive reinforcement, and this happened, I might look into training that is more clear cut, moderate praise and with moderate corrections. If I was training using stiff commands, moderate praise and moderate corrections, and this happened, I would probably try a more positive training style. Positive NOT permissive.

I would tell people not to hug the dog.

I would hug the dog, daily. I would touch the ears, and the tail and the paws, and the toenails, every day. I would spend 20 minutes going over every inch of the dog every day, and end it with a hug.

I don't know what you should do with your dog. One thing nice about group classes, is you can bring up problems with your dog that you are having, and they can give you advice because they have seen you interact with the dog. They might have better insight on what this dog/handler team needs to do.

Management -- keep people from hugging the dog for now, other than you.

Leadership -- closely determine what you are and aren't doing, if you are lax on NILIF, then clean it up, dog doesn't get to be up on the bed, period, because you are having problems.

Training -- build the bond through training, set her up to succeed and praise her for it, build her confidence in you through training, fair training, proper rewards, fair/appropriate corrections if you are using them.

Exercise -- step it up. Morning and Evening, throw the ball if you don't want to walk or run. Tire her out in her body and her mind.


Good luck with her.
 
#24 ·
I do primarily use praise and treats. I do corrections when she gets beyond a limit. I also have been descentizing her to such, i always play with her ears, i can open her mouth way open to check inside and pill her, i can play with her toes (sometimes she gets mouthy, but its been so much better since i started her with treat everytime i touched her toes and clipped nails), because of her anal gland problems i stand over her and lift up her tail and "check her anal glands" because thats a real life scenario that i must do and she just stands there now, before she would wiggle worm, i can pick her up, i think she gets that im trying to be affectionate when i kiss her face because im also giving her a massage at the same time, which she likes. But i'm going to have my mom feed her, i also have them do obediance with her when they can, which is rare- and they don't really care to :eek:

why force your dog to hug if it doesnt want to? not all dogs are made for petting and rubbing all over. if you want that you should've gotten a golden retriever instead of forcing your dog with multiple behavioral problems to do something it is uncomfortable with. not all dogs like their personal space invaded.
I get what your saying boomer, i think that i want to descenctize her because i want a dog who isn't going to growl or bite me because happened to sit next to her and rubbed up against her face or something, or she growled at me for getting on the bed with her and shoving her aside so i can lay down next to her. And since when did GSD's become not a rubbing and petting dog? I fell in love with the breed working at a shelter, i've met several GSD's who were so sweet and passed their temperament test with flying colors and LOVED love as well as being some of the most soulful and real dogs i've met.. Zelda IS very sweet on her own terms and is NOT a fan of being confined in arms.

It is true that GSDs have a range of sounds they use, and some of them can be quite grumbly, when there is no aggression present.

I guess you can figure it this way:
If it wasn't a growl and you do nothing about it = no change -- good
If it wasn't a growl and you do increase M, L, T, E = nothing bad -- good
If it was a growl and you do increase M, L, T, E = improvement? -- good
If it was a growl and you do nothing about it = Increased aggression/injury -- bad.
True Selzer, and ya im sure if i increased those it wouldnt do anything bad, good if anything.

I was going to say the same thing. Especially since she said she wasnt sure it was a growl. Usually u can be sure when a dog growls at you. Grumbling sometimes ur not to sure unless ur watching them. Dexter grumbles alot when some family members hug him. He also grumbles when hes stretching, wants to be next to u but u make him stay etc.
She did say she didn't feel scared of her, because if it was a growl you would think that she would have felt the different energy from her? Not sure.. But she is a grumbly girl, so it could have very well sounded just like a growl to my mom.
 
#18 ·
why force your dog to hug if it doesnt want to? not all dogs are made for petting and rubbing all over. if you want that you should've gotten a golden retriever instead of forcing your dog with multiple behavioral problems to do something it is uncomfortable with. not all dogs like their personal space invaded.
 
#22 ·
Because I have to be able to trim toenails, put ear ointment in the ears and clean them out, get blood drawn at the vets, stick a thermometer in the bum to find out how sick the dog is, and so forth.

My dogs have to tolerate/accept ANY touch that I give them. I do hug my dogs. My dogs do not own personal space, sorry not if that means someone gets bit. I own the space. I own the dog, and I can touch them anywhere, and take anything out of their mouths, and put anything anywhere that needs to be there. I am sorry, but a dog that thinks they can decide what they will accept and won't accept, well, I suppose everything has its limits, but its limits had better not be a hug from its owner. Because that will probably be a dead dog.
 
#19 ·
It is true that GSDs have a range of sounds they use, and some of them can be quite grumbly, when there is no aggression present.

I guess you can figure it this way:
If it wasn't a growl and you do nothing about it = no change -- good
If it wasn't a growl and you do increase M, L, T, E = nothing bad -- good
If it was a growl and you do increase M, L, T, E = improvement? -- good
If it was a growl and you do nothing about it = Increased aggression/injury -- bad.
 
#23 ·
To a certain extent a dog is going to need its personal space invaded at some point. Either for grooming nail clipping or vet appointments. It is never a bad idea to condition them to handling. That said there is a right way and a wrong way to do that conditioning and it is something best taught in person by someone who knows how and not explained in text.

Selzer beating me to the punches tonight
 
#25 ·
big difference in conditioning a dog to accept clipping toenails and conditioning the dog to accept hugs and petting. hugging is just for your benefit. some nervy dogs just dont want to get that close every single day.

also you dont need to condition a dog for anything at the vet. they have muzzles there for a reason.
 
#26 ·
When my sister started working at the vet again, she see's my sister and even though there are "Scary" strangers in the room, she wags her tail and gets all excited and happy! So it changes her energy entirely and its less defensive and scared. So you can still can, but i do still muzzle her when i go there for her safety and everyone else.. and i bring treats. :)
 
#27 ·
For me and if it were my own dogs.. Since your mom isn't sure/clear if it was a true growl.. I'd be inclined to let it pass, but keep an eye on it and be aware that there is that potential.. I wouldn't get all crazy and start doing things to the dog to make the situation worse or stress her out more than she needs to be...

Some have mentioned her hips being bad.. I don't know how bad they are? Or what your doing for them.. Or how much exercise she can have or do..

I would however not allow her on the bed or any furniture for now.. And up her obedience training..
 
#34 ·
For me and if it were my own dogs.. Since your mom isn't sure/clear if it was a true growl.. I'd be inclined to let it pass, but keep an eye on it and be aware that there is that potential.. I wouldn't get all crazy and start doing things to the dog to make the situation worse or stress her out more than she needs to be...

Some have mentioned her hips being bad.. I don't know how bad they are? Or what your doing for them.. Or how much exercise she can have or do..

I would however not allow her on the bed or any furniture for now.. And up her obedience training..
Her hips are not very great.. I do not let her run a whole lot, she is on Cosequin DS, fishoil and pain/inflammatory.
Thats what im going to do and i told my family the same, and if she does do it tell her OFF, only do it two times before making her go off. Which she does go off on the first try usually, so it shouldn't be a problem. And she will get it she is a smart girl. :)

I see an almost perfect storm for a dog to get it's proverbial knickers in a wad with this situation.

First, a 2-ish y/o German that's making sense of the social makeup and figuring out her place with the mind of an adult dog.

Second, possible pain involved.

Third, a gross dominance display taking place in a place that normally (my guess) allows for slack pack behavior. My dogs see the bed as place to unwind and relax. Mine give me a little "hey, cut it out" growl if I roll half over them to smack the snooze button some mornings(well, evenings for me). It's a communication growl and does not mean anything other than I have vocal dogs.

Seeing that all your mom got was a growl or something like a growl I'd be fairly pleased. I would still work on the what sounds to me like resource guarding. Make the bed a treat, only allow her on it when you are around. I've trained mine to stay off the bed when I am not in the room. My female will jump up without my que still and I'm working on it, my male will wait until I tell him it's time for bed. It's a simple "bed is clear", he'll hop up and snuggle/gnaw/burrow for awhile and then either go to sleep or jet off to his bed(in the room).
Where is the dominance display? Did you mean me or her? I didn't quite get that part. Yes, i am glad she is good at communicating she has lots of calming signals and warnings that she uses. I do find it interesting how people differ on the whole growling, curling lip, warnings. Some people say they are unacceptable to ever use others say its just communication. Thanks for your reply :)

My boy is a vocal boy. He moans and groans and humpfs all the time. He isn't a touchy-feely dog. When we hug him, he will groan and moan. When I tell him "Dead Dog" he'll moan and humpf and flop over. It's funny, but it wasn't part of the trick when it was trained. It's just him.

There is a HUGE difference between the groans and a proper growl - which he has never directed as either one of us.
I agree thats why i wanted to be clear, and she is positive now that she growled at her. I want to believe that she didn't and she was just being Zelda vocal, moany/groans, whiney, rooey girl. But she is a year old and she could have.

I only ever heard my old guy growl for real a handful of times. I trusted that dog absolutely, as in I'd strap a bloody steak to my throat and let him at it. He was trustworthy as I could imagine. But when he did the true "I'm a hard a** P.O.ed dog and I'm coming to get you" it scared me. Possibly because I knew that growl was the real deal and that tone and timbre scratched at primal bits of my brain. Never directed at me, thank goodness.
Well she has never been directing true aggression to me. And i am not fearful of her at all, i think even if she bit me, i wouldn't be scared of her. :)

My little non-GSD mix came from the shelter with a lot of issues. I practiced mind games with him. He has turned into an awesome little dog. You can practice some or all of the steps. Here is the link.

Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong
Thanks for the link, i actually did buy a book on mind games but any more resource is wonderful! thanks :)

I have had a GSD for 6 years now and don't consider myself and expert by any means. Bully breeds are my background and my GSD was a whole different world of experiance, what your describing is what I can do with my guy without exception.

The question is about "other people" family members etc. After alot of work my GSD is safe in public and with other dogs in public, still suspicious of folks in the home but well behaved.

It was years before I allowed a stranger to pet him but after I was comfortable and could read him well, I noticed he really wasn't concerned about strangers at all.

I used a soft muzzle on my guy at home for a while around friends and company until I was comfortable knowing how my dog would react and I head good control over him.

Never used it on walks or needed it at the vet office it kept people safe and my better half
felt more comfortable with him around people with the soft muzzle.

I would muzzle the dog around "company" the dog is telling you he has "issues" with personal space you'll have much bigger problems if he actually bites someone. Just don't give him the chance. :)

And continue working with him.
And i will, this girl is not being put down! If i have to be homeless with her i will. I am fully dedicated to her when im in the right state of mind lol ;)



Thanks for all the replies guys, i feel better about the situation and am going to step up my game more and have more ideas and resources now!
 
#28 ·
I see an almost perfect storm for a dog to get it's proverbial knickers in a wad with this situation.

First, a 2-ish y/o German that's making sense of the social makeup and figuring out her place with the mind of an adult dog.

Second, possible pain involved.

Third, a gross dominance display taking place in a place that normally (my guess) allows for slack pack behavior. My dogs see the bed as place to unwind and relax. Mine give me a little "hey, cut it out" growl if I roll half over them to smack the snooze button some mornings(well, evenings for me). It's a communication growl and does not mean anything other than I have vocal dogs.

Seeing that all your mom got was a growl or something like a growl I'd be fairly pleased. I would still work on the what sounds to me like resource guarding. Make the bed a treat, only allow her on it when you are around. I've trained mine to stay off the bed when I am not in the room. My female will jump up without my que still and I'm working on it, my male will wait until I tell him it's time for bed. It's a simple "bed is clear", he'll hop up and snuggle/gnaw/burrow for awhile and then either go to sleep or jet off to his bed(in the room).
 
#29 ·
she thought she growled at her.
My boy is a vocal boy. He moans and groans and humpfs all the time. He isn't a touchy-feely dog. When we hug him, he will groan and moan. When I tell him "Dead Dog" he'll moan and humpf and flop over. It's funny, but it wasn't part of the trick when it was trained. It's just him.

There is a HUGE difference between the groans and a proper growl - which he has never directed as either one of us.
 
#30 ·
I only ever heard my old guy growl for real a handful of times. I trusted that dog absolutely, as in I'd strap a bloody steak to my throat and let him at it. He was trustworthy as I could imagine. But when he did the true "I'm a hard a** P.O.ed dog and I'm coming to get you" it scared me. Possibly because I knew that growl was the real deal and that tone and timbre scratched at primal bits of my brain. Never directed at me, thank goodness.
 
#36 ·
VTGirtT-

Hugging a dog is a pronounced dominance(or can be) display. Anything regarding the neck area has that potential. I imagined your mom leaning over and wrapping arms around, to a good percentage of dogs that's pretty strong body language. You can probably get away with it all day long and Zelda could care less, someone not as closely bonded might not.

Generally speaking dogs don't like hugs. Hugs are a primate thing, mutual trust and whatnot. If I had to pick the action that most closely resembles a hug(primate perspective) to a dogs "hug" it would rolling over and begging for a belly rub or burying their head in your armpit or lap.
 
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