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Is my trainer crazy?

16K views 135 replies 52 participants last post by  hunterisgreat 
#1 ·
Our GSD, maverick, is now 8 months old. He's been developing a bit of dominant/aggressive behavior. He bit me a few weeks ago (drew blood, required trip to ER with no stitches), and bit a friend of ours over the weekend. Since the bite with me, we decided to get him a new trainer. Our usual trainer wanted us to hand him over for 3 weeks and they would kennel him at the boarders and train him during the day. I was totally uncomfortable with him being in a kennel... especially when I believe that my husband and I should have a direct role in his behavior training.

The trainer was landed on is a German Shepherd specific trainer. Very pricey, but has lots of awards and trains K-9 dogs as well as domestic and guard dogs.

Our first training session was last week. It was pretty good and I was happy when we left. At this session yesterday, it got pretty intense.

I'm 8 months pregnant and already hormonal and emotional. After Maverick tried to bite my husband during training a few times, the trainer took him over and chained him up in the yard. Then he put a second choker collar on him tied to a leash and proceeded to antagonize him. Everytime he lunged, the chain would choke him, and he would get "corrected" from my husband. This went on for 5 minutes and I had to walk away. Maverick finally stopped lunging and just laid down. Then after the rest of the training session, the trainer took him inside and had him on his choker with his leash and used a foam baseball bat with a glove on it to antagonize him again. He never hit him, just tapped him to make him irritated and rubbed him all over with it. Maverick bit it so hard a few times it ripped it out of the trainers hand. Eventually he just put up with it and tried to crawl under a table instead of biting.

Has anyone else had any training this intense before?
 
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#4 ·
I'm going to let the 'experts' chime in on this one. :shrug:

You have not mentioned WHAT the dog is going to do...be a K9, do SchH or be a pet?
(Yes, I have witnessed this type of training before.)

The only thing I can add is that I wouldn't leave my dog with anyone either.
If my dog needs training, I prefer they TRAIN ME to train my dog.

JMO.

:) Kat
 
#5 ·
Hmmmmm..... on one hand I did some pretty intense training with my fear aggressive boy that stopped much of his lunging. He was a lot older though -probably 2ish.

Ive seen my trainer hang a dog up for biting him over a correction that the dog deemed as unfair. Again though a 2-3 year old dog active in training that simply ignores most pressure put on him. The action didnt even phase him - may not of even gotten through to him although he did stop biting at the trainer.

For an 8 month old puppy - I would be pretty concerned. You dont correct a dog until the dog knows better, and if this pup is just beginning training - I see it not ending well.

New trainer.

Remember there are manu different ways to train sport/protection/working dogs. And some do it simply by dominance and fear tactics. Their dog may run a perfect obedience score at a trial. But if it's because the dog is terrified of the handler, what's the point?

Sent from Petguide.com Free App
 
#6 ·
He is going to be a housedog. But with the baby coming soon, we are worried about what he will do to a child. Dont worry, they wont be left alone blah blah. But still...

So far, he's bitten me twice. Both times left scars. He bit a friend of the family and drew blood. And he's lunged at both kids and adults. If he wasnt on leash during those lunges, he probably would have bitten pretty bad. He bit me because I tried to take away a sock that he had. He bit our friend because he went to pet him and Maverick though that he was taking his bone away. And he lunged at the kids for no reason. They werent even looking at him.

So even though he's going to be a housedog... we cant have that kind of aggression for much longer.
 
#7 ·
I wouldn't use this trainer. He's trying to shut your dog down. I prefer to build the dog up, not put him down.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Sounds like resource guarding, there are several threads on it that may be helpful. You can use the search function just under the black bar near the top of the page, here is one of them, http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/158559-resource-guarding.html

What was going on when your pup was lunging at the kids? Hopefully someone with more experience will post with advice and perhaps a few good trainer recommendations as well.
 
#11 ·
Hopefully someone with more experience will post with advice and perhaps a few good trainer recommendations as well.
Honestly, this is a situation where I feel like Internet advice is likely to do a lot more harm than good.

We know that the OP is eight months pregnant (which means: (a) she physically and emotionally can't/shouldn't be picking fights with a large dog who's already sent her to the ER once; and (b) they need to get a handle on these issues fast -- but that need for speed often pushes people into ill-advised approaches that promise magical instant results).

It doesn't sound like the OP has a clear sense of what's causing this behavior or how/if anything else the owners have been doing could possibly be contributing to it. Or, maybe more accurately, I can't tell what's going on from the written description, other than that they seem to be dealing with a young dog that has very poor bite inhibition and sounds like he's pretty easily triggered. But that's so generic that it's not much help.

So in this scenario I'm not about to suggest anything, other than that the OP really really ought to find a good, certified trainer/behaviorist to work with in person.
 
#10 ·
It sounds like the trainer is trying to "flood" the dog..

Frankly, I believe, aggression can beget aggression:( He may chill out for the trainer at the moment, but it may escalate his aggression in real life situations.

Personally, I would find another trainer..and pronto..

Tho both instances with YOU and the FRIEND, sound like he was resource guarding (he obviously did not want YOU taking the sock away and your friend the bone),,WHen a dog bites a person they live with, aggressively, that is one big no no.

Any of my dogs bit me like that, or even thought about it, I wouldn't need a trainer to take care of him, I'd do it myself, and they'd be sorry they bit the hand that feeds them:) (I"m being sarcastic here, I don't expect you guys to do this yourselves)

I think you need to find (ask for referrals here on the forum for your area)..either a good behaviorist or behaviorist/trainer..I would NOT send this dog away, I wouldn't let this trainer touch a dog of mine ..

Your dog is only 8 months old, I don't mean to be harsh, but maybe you've been to easy on him? He sounds like he needs a good solid leader/training, or he may just be wired wrong:(

I would not trust him around anyone , you definitely need some help:( Hope you can find a referral..
 
#14 ·
let me ask this as well,,how about your breeder?? Maybe they can be of help/with training????
 
#37 ·
This is a good example of how people can get bad advice on forums.
The above statement was made without reading the OP's subsequent clarifications regarding what this dog was doing.

I assumed it was puppy gatoring, because the dog is only 8 months old.

Today I returned to the thread and found out it could be actual aggression, so my reply above is not so great.

In my opinion, it is impossible to turn an innately aggressive GSD into a nice pet dog. All the training in the world is not going to override who he is. You can shut down a dog, but you can't transform his temperament and personality.

I can say that when I had babies to care for, there was no way I could ever have handled an aggressive GSD on top of everything, nor would I have felt safe with such a dog in my house.

A good German Shepherd follows you around with happy eyes and a "doggie grin," and swishes his tail from side to side when you even look at him. He barks at strangers, stops when told to stop barking, and makes you feel safe.

Such a dog gives you immeasurable joy. I wish everyone to experience the happiness of owning such a German Shepherd. That is the GSD that should be in a house with babies and kids.
 
#18 ·
I'm with mericel on this one. I will say this though, behavior eradication done right uses some heavy corrections that hurt and aren't fun to watch or administer. The trainer has probably done the math already. The baby is on the way soon and if the issue isn't fixed the dog is likely a dead dog walking. It is hard to successfully rehome liabilities. You can go with advice from the internet or you can work with a trainer that does that kind of thing with aggressive adult dogs for a living. Those corrections might look harsh but if it's to save the life of the dog then I think it is justified.

Reminds me of a sign I saw in a store one time. You can have the job done cheaply quickly or done well, pick any two. There is probably a way to counter condition the behavior but it would require a very knowledgeable trainer take a lot of time and be very expensive. It likely would require boarding the dog too. If the dogs issues are not medical or genetic the issue was human created. Don't take offense to this but that means it started with you guys and depending on how bad it has gotten might be better resolved away from you too. They can then teach you how to maintain the training and not recreate the issues.
 
#19 ·
Im sorry but a dog biting the handler and handlers husband is not an indicator of fear aggression to me. To me its a sign that the dog is too much for the handler. Whether its social aggression or redirected frustration who can say? We are on the net you have to see the dog in person before you can form a hypothesis.

As for the trainer if he has REAL results to his name I would go with that over any internet advice. Do some checking see if he actually has done all the things he claims to.
 
#21 ·
I wouldn't go to a k-9 trainer with a pet dog. It could be fear aggression, but you are right, someone with good experience needs to evaluate the dog in person.

I am also interested in whether it isn't a good time to contact the breeder and see if they have any suggestions.
 
#22 ·
what brought your pup to the point of biting? Was the scenario similar or just out of the blue?

Is there a schutzhund club nearby that you could look for others to evaluate your pup?

You're right to be concerned and the web might not be the best place for answers.

Your pup needs to be evaluated by someone you trust.

Best of luck.
 
#24 ·
I have been really lucky to have two great trainers, one who has been internationally known in Schutzhund circles and another one who currently has about 40 dogs world wide in active K-9 service. (www.kreativekennels.com) Both trainers have worked their dogs hard but neither would do that to a pup... Get rid of that trainer unless you want a dog that is so hard that he is a constant worry around family and friends let alone stranger who want to pet him.. I'm on my 3rd GSD and the second one was so high in work drive that if I had treated her that way she would have been a real threat to everyone including family. I don't know about you but I want a dog that is as safe to be around in a nursery as well as in a crowd of strangers.. Her progeny has been very even tempered and loving but will be high achievers as working dogs. Discipline and correction is a part of pack life and necessary for gsd training. Good luck, a quality trainer will help you with this part...
Phil
 
#25 · (Edited)
The dog is already a threat to family and friends and probably strangers too. Frankly a trainer with experience with the breed, awards accolades, and is expensive and is still in business despite using those methods is probably **** good at what he does. In certain cases doing adversive style training like that correctly requires better timing knowledge and skill on the part of the trainer than with positive methods. He's seen the dog first hand. We haven't. Not saying I'm a huge fan of the method used and it has its potential drawbacks that would also require their own ironing out, but there ya have it.
 
#26 ·
The dog is already a threat to family and friends and probably strangers too.
The dog is 8 months old. I have an 8 month old. I really don't know that this dog is hopeless unless it is treated extremely harshly, and shut down. I just don't know. I don't like giving up on an 8 month old puppy. This type of training is like giving up, because only some dogs can take it. Other dogs will become total nerve-bags, unsafe with anyone.

I think a pup at this stage can go a bunch of different ways. 8 months is when a pup starts pushing its limits with dogs and people. Strengthening the leadership, increasing exericise, and continuing training will take a pup through this stage with or without neutering. Neutering might help.

I training a dog like this and then turning him back over to a household who are not that kind of trainers, is a recipe for disaster.

Can the OP post a pedigree of this dog, it would be interesting to see what is in the dog's background and what type of dog it is.
 
#27 ·
Yeah the trainer is trying to shut this dog down...most likely due to the fact that there is a baby on the way in a month and the owners don't have the next 6 months to use positive reinforcement to stop the dog from behaving like this. It's not giving up on the dog, its just trying to turn a dog that might be too much for these people (or just have issues), into a calmer dog that doesn't make any decisions by himself.

The description of the training doesn't sound good, but I'm sure the trainer has reasons. He also (according to OP) has success and trains much higher level dogs. For some of us to sit here and say we don't approve isn't 100% right IMO. I do think that this dog could probably be changed in other methods that could take a much longer time. This is a very old-school, "Caesar" like, method. This dog has bitten twice...at 8 months old it should understand very well what to bite and what not to bite.

I give props to the OP for sticking through this and trying to help this dog...9/10 people in her shoes would've been rehoming this dog after the first incident.
 
#29 ·
Another concern I have is that if the OP is not able to read her dog well enough to see what's causing the problems currently, then even if she is able and willing to employ harsh approaches, those methods may be used in the wrong situations, at the wrong time, or to the wrong degree -- and then, again, you get a blowup.
 
#30 ·
There is the option of management of the dog till those longer methods work, such as crating and use of leashes indoors and taking lots of other preventive measures that keep the dog away from the baby, or reduce risk to others (You'd be smart to go this route even if the dog showed no aggression at all) I've got a 7 month old pup and he's been great but I'd keep him away from babies or young kids.

All dogs are different. The general idea that aggressive training methods breed aggression is just false (although it can happen with certain dogs or when used a certain way.) One dog might respond exactly the way your corrections intended and another might come up the leash at you.

It's not an ideal situation for the OP or the dog but definitely props for taking a bite that required medical attention and still sticking it out with the dog.
 
#31 ·
Might be the best darn trainer in the world, we don't know.. Just because some on here don't agree with the methods doesn't make this trainer unknowledgeable or bad. Don't know the dog either and what's going on in it's head.. but if it's biting it's owners in that serious fashion that you require going to the hospital, then... This is a scary situation..

Until those out there have truly dealt with an aggressive dog, sometimes it ain't all cookies and praise.. And just because the dog is 8 months old means squat..

I wish the OP the best of luck with what ever route they take..
 
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