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Please help us. Dog turned agressive

29K views 156 replies 49 participants last post by  AshleyD 
#1 ·
We have a two year old male GSD. We got him when he was about ten weeks and has been in our home with myself, my wife and our 17 year old son. He is the most loved and loving thing you would ever see. My work takes me away for weeks at a time and he spends every minute of every day with my wife. She walks him four to five times a day. She takes him to the field by the house three times a day to play catch. She feeds and cares for him like he was another child of ours. He is our baby.

Since he was old enough to bark he would defend the vehicle and the door very aggressively. We have had a difficult time having friends of our son stop by for this reason. He is very intimidating and very loud. Although to this point it was all more bark than bite, he is avoided by all but one or two of our son’s friends.

About three weeks ago he started growling at our son. It was like just one day he wouldn’t want him in the same room with him. The dog would hide from the boy and he was visibly shaking. We tried to have the boy feed him some of his treats and the dog just would growl at him. We separated the two and it has been hit or miss ever since. Sometimes he would be fine and loving on the boy. Other times he would growl and move towards the boy.

Fast forward another two weeks and he has started the same behavior with the wife. He will love her by kissing her and licking her like only these puppies can do and the next minute growl at her. Several minutes later he would sit next to her and lick her face then start growling at her again.

We LOVE this dog. He has NEVER been mistreated. He is loved, well fed and well exercised. Up until a few weeks ago I would say he is well adjusted. Fiercely protective of the home and when he is in the car but obedient and well behaved.

Now for the bad news. The dog bit our son. Fortunately it was not a bad bite but it wasn’t a nip and he did intend to do harm. He has been to his vet and there appears to be nothing obviously medically wrong with him. We are urgently trying to find an animal behaviorist to meet and hopefully give us an idea of what may be happening. The problem is that there are no openings in our area. My schedule keeps me away for weeks at a time. I cannot leave my home with the dog alone with my wife after he went after the boy. Our choices are limited. We will not rehome the dog and pass this problem onto another that may mistreat him for this horrible behavior. We do not want to put him down as it is an unthinkable thing to do if there is a chance we can figure out what is wrong. I am afraid the unthinkable may be what we need to do.

If anyone can give us information that will help us and our puppy please help.
 
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#107 ·
Thanks so much for the update. It sounds as though it's a behavioral/training issue & not a medical problem. It also sounds as though he's not mentally unsound which is GREAT news. That can be verrrry tough to resolve satisfactorily.

Things seem to be going well which is terrific news. Sound, stable GSDs are ordinarily very amenable to training which can make this kind of rehabilitation relatively easy. I hope everything continues to go well. Please keep us updated.
 
#108 ·
Thanks for the update Im so glad that things are turning around for the better. This situation could happen to many of us here on the site that have young dogs. It is something to learn from and I am glad that you took the time to post, ask the question and update us.
 
#110 ·
have only read to end of page 3 --- neutering does not change aggression -- there are actually many studies which indicate that aggression may become increased . Please read article written by Christine Zink http://www.vizslacanada.ca/SNBehaviorBoneDataSnapShot.pdf

dog is a little like the child "rock star" surrounded by yes-men , catered to , indulged , sheltered .

something is not normal in the brain . Where do you run hot and cold , one moment soliciting connection (wife and dog being in friend mode (although licky lick could be a sign of being uncomfortable feeling pressure) and then the next moment growling , then back , back and forth.

I'll keep reading through the whole thread .
 
#111 ·
Hi all...Seig's mom here.

Thank you to everyone who posted and read and posted and read...in this situation we truly were worried we'd lose our friend and protector.

Couple of things. Out of the family, I was the number ONE person not wanting to neuter Seig. I'm not a fan. For canines or humans. Just not a fan. It took something of this degree and nature to get me to that point. It took the possibility of putting my dog down and so neutering was an easy choice at that point. The reason I am stressing this is I am, cautiously, convinced that to some degree this helped in Seig's "situation." It was almost (I say almost because of the drugs afterwards) instant that he was back to his normal self with me. In a nutshell and so as to not bring on comments which have no merit, Seig was neutered and has not since snarled nor growled at me. And in totality, since the first time he did with my son, he'd only done it maybe 5-6 times with me. But when he did, it was terrifying and it broke my heart. He had also "stalked" me once in the home...that was the worst feeling. So, after the neuter, he is 100% himself with me. I write all of this because there will be again, someone like us who will experience this. This first thing you feel (or we did at least) is heartbreak..."wtf??? this is our puppy!!!" second is confusion...again, "wtf...this is OUR puppy!!!" and lastly, fear. So, perhaps there is some truth to the neutering/aggression. Seig was exactly 19 months old when it FIRST and EVER began (again...don't want to bring on comments that we just didn't notice it or the son must have done something...no need to lie, embellish, etc...the facts are what they are). So those of you who read this later because you have this same exact issue, he was 19 months exactly and intact. For those of you who like me, are/were against neutering, and like me are/were facing putting him down (because I wouldn't risk that with another family...too dangerous) I, at this point, would support neutering when you absolutely can find no answer ALONG with the situation being a COMPLETE 180 in knowing your dog well...having raised him from 10 weeks old.

Now, the behaviorist. He is great. Highly recommend him. Dr. Pachel. My husband touched on it but it's like this; he doesn't growl at or worse with dad as dad is the alpha he respects. Now because of dad's job, he is home only 1/3 the time. I raised Seig (and yes, I screwed up in spoiling him/boundaries). It was me and Seig 24/7 as I do not work. Field 2ce/day, park 2ce/day and a few walks. Every day. But Seig views me as the alpha he doesn't respect due to my not having clear boundaries and allowing Seig to be on guard 24/7. Seig literally was on guard staring at the door 24/7. My son was a "playmate" in Seig's eyes as my husband touched on, according to the doctor. He was an equal and therefore, zero respect. So, that in a very small nutshell is how Seig views us all and why/how things got to where they did with his getting older..reaching sexual maturity...and being on guard constantly. There's much more, the doctor was extremely thorough and it was a 3 hour appointment so please no comments on this isn't the only thing...we know.

My husband touched on it but...if Seig is not playing, eating, doing the duty, training or in transit, he is in his "room." That amounts to about 16 hours a day. It's a HUGE transition as Seig and I always hung out...all day...right by my side or under my foot, laundry, dishes, cooking, watching news...you name it, always by my side. So it's a huge change but he is doing okay with it. It's harder on me but it's good in that I can move without him under my heels! :laugh: At play, he must sit before every single stick is thrown and before every single ball is "chuck it'd" it's very, very different play but I see how it works for him. He sit's before every single reward/walk/treat/praise. It is completely different and it is absolutely working.

As for my son, I would say Seig is 100% back to normal but I can't as I don't want to and never would, "test" that with Seig. They play now (before for those couple of weeks, Sam couldn't get near him), Sam feeds him again, Seig wakes Sam up again, it's as normal as it was without testing it to find out. As for no "face kissing" or to the one who couldn't believe we were "face kissing" well....we are ALL face kissing and LOVING it again. Seig is probably the one loving it most. (You'll see that in the pics we posted). We all get kisses from him again and it is consistent and just like it was. Again, I am a little tentative with brother but we can leave them alone again, they go on walks again, and Sam understands it's critical for him to be an alpha and stepping in as a resource provider, etc.

Seig is his old self with a little caution on our part but for certain he is 100% with me. The neutering helped and the behaviorist definitely helped. I learned a ton and I will be in constant learning/training mode to ensure this sticks.

Lastly, I know I spoiled and babied my dog. I am now undoing that. The thought of putting him down was awful, heart breaking. I was unaware that you could not have a GSD the same as you would have a Golden Retriever (the dogs I've always had). My learning this, being told by a doctor, has made a huge difference in how I treat Seig. I needed to be told that and never was. He can no longer be my cuddle buddy who gets every little thing he wants playing kissy face with mom. It worked however, until he hit "that" point (19 mos? sexual maturity? nonstop guarding? who knows.) but things have changed. We can still play kissy face, it's just on my terms and it's got to be earned.

Seig is a 90# killing machine and I need to respect that this is his first priority. Not being my sweet little puppy.

Thank you again to everyone...it was a very scary and sad moment for us all. We truly appreciate the help!

Seig's Family
 
#112 ·
got to page 6 -- to this " This is not a forum for challenging an accusation such as I will most likely find out my son did something to set the dog off. "

so what , and why would you blame your son . This dog (so far) just does not sound stable nor normal. If your son accidently tripped over the dog during some night time trip down the hallway to use the bathroom would you expect your son to be mauled. The dog has to have some tolerance and some recovery . Your wife wasn't doing anything to provoke the dog . Inappropriate aggressive behaviour leaking out .

back to reading
 
#113 ·
carmspack

Again...not here to engage in challenging posts.

Reread the earlier posts and in full. We did not accuse our son. An accusation was made by a poster ("we will find out eventually that our son did something...." We wrote simply that we would not engage in defending what we write to be true ("our son did nothing..."as we are more interested in helping our dog.

I appreciate your insight but do not agree.

To all others, please continue the posts.
 
#114 ·
I'm so happy this worked out for you! I can understand neutering can have an effect. I neutered a male once (medical issues), and he really did turn into a different dog. Nobody but myself would have noticed because it was so subtle and he was a good boy to start with. I noticed.

I hope this thread sticks around for others who are having problems.

Again, I am SO Happy for you!
 
#115 ·
okay , sorry for any wrongful interpretations. So on page 12 I am having difficulty because the gender of the writer has changed. On page one it was "the" son and "the" wife and here it seems it's "mama" who the behaviourist deems "alpha" and who likes face kissing so the dog is normal . Was the dog normal to begin with ? I am looking more to muskegs good post on reasons for this behaviour.

this "But for my wife to have this aggressive barking fiercely at the docs cower behind mama sure made my wife feel "normal" again" (see how the writer is a different gender) -- but never mind --- this snippet indicates that there is some pride , maybe reward , for the dog aggressively barking at people, whether the docs or son's friends , and that the dog is fear aggressive and rewarded for hiding , avoiding , behind mamma.

who is this dr Pachel because I think , if you are reporting advice correctly, the advice is weird. Dogs are not people , babies . People are not their moms and dads and brothers or sisters. Do behaviourists still use "alpha"?
 
#116 ·
Thanks Fly Away

only we know our dogs best. I was so completely against the neutering as I mentioned but even if it is not what helped/changed his sudden aggression (I believe it def did) it certainly saved his life and us our family pet/protector.

Thanks!
 
#118 ·
carmspack

Carmspack,

The purpose for the post was to seek help from those that possibly have lived the same situation we had been with our dog. It truly is tragic. If you take the time to read the thread in its entirety we are not alone. There is sure to be a lesson for many in this.

To explain the gender concerns you have; I (Dad) started the post because we had come to this site before for information regarding training and what not. It seemed that there were knowledgeable and willing people here. I was not wrong.

The thread was continued by my wife and then again much later by myself. The only reason I mention this is you seem to be perplexed as you mention it several times.

While I appreciate your input I do not welcome the accusatory and condemning manner in which you go about it (us, son, doctor...). While we had one negative comment, I believe it were ignorant but made with good intentions. Your comments are not.

Please stop trying to dissect our problem and point out inconsistencies and question what is working. I am not sure what your qualifications are but I would bet almost anything that you are not qualified to question our behaviorist or his advice.

Another reason I recommend you read the thread in its entirety is there are many smart people whom have read and commented. For you to take this approach just isn’t a smart move.

Again, the entire reason for our posting past getting help for our own situation is to help OTHERS as there most certainly will be/are others going through this.

For anyone who IS going through this, there IS hope and we hope you get something from our experience.

We are happy to answer any questions and share our behaviorists thoughts short of breeching any confidentiality....that is why he charges what he does :laugh:
 
#120 ·
While I appreciate your input I do not welcome the accusatory and condemning manner in which you go about it (us, son, doctor...). While we had one negative comment, I believe it were ignorant but made with good intentions. Your comments are not.

Please stop trying to dissect our problem and point out inconsistencies and question what is working. I am not sure what your qualifications are but I would bet almost anything that you are not qualified to question our behaviorist or his advice.

:
And you would lose that bet.
ABOUT | CARMSPACK.com
When you post on a public forum, you open yourself up to comments that you are not going to like. It is futile to attempt to control the replies you get. Just take what you want and ignore the rest.

People reply because they are trying to help. It's not OK to slam them for doing so, because you are defensive about what they have to say.
 
#119 ·
Carmspack is a respected breeder with decades of experience and knowledge working with this breed. She may be blunt but she does have the knowledge to back her questions and response. You may want to read her take on the behavior and think on it a bit.
 
#121 ·
well , before replying back here I did go back and re-read all the "Seig" posts to make find out who was the author.
"To explain the gender concerns you have; I (Dad) started the post ............(then) The thread was continued by my wife and then again much later by myself. The only reason I mention this is you seem to be perplexed as you mention it several times. "

This is not normal for this forum.

Usually one per thread writer otherwise it does get confusing because it is not the same voice, same concerns, or even same thoughts/beliefs. If both want to contribute then sign up as two individuals --- I guess with two different names / avatars.

The behaviourist seems to be very very expensive (eyebrows still up and mouth still open !)


OUR FEES
  • Diagnostic (new patients) Behavioral Consultations: $260/hour
  • Follow Up Consultations (current patients): $220/hour
  • Travel Fee: $65 (home visits in Oregon within a 15-20 mile radius of our office in SE Portland)
  • Additional fees will apply for any diagnostic testing, medications or products"
so where do you go from there? did they recommend a good trainer because I believe at the core the dog does need training
 
#122 ·
Just a comment regarding the neutering. Don't delude yourself into thinking it's made a difference. You took the dog to the behaviorist the same day the dog got neutered. Thats likely the change you are seeing. It's not quite as straightforward as "the hormones magically leave the body the second the dog is neutered." The did is responding to the sudden changes, not getting neutered. Just be aware of that. People swear it can make a difference. I don't have enough experience with neutering dogs to comment on that. But it's not magic.
 
#124 ·
I reread my comments and it seems that I was right. I am delighted to hear that you are working with your dog.
I have seen dogs like this in rescue, somewhat iffy nerves and too much responsibility, and behaviors like this can surface. I have also seen in several cases that neutering can make a huge difference. Some owners described it as a different dog after the neuter. Enrolling him into a series of group obedience classes would be very useful and less costly than a behaviorist.

After the situation stabilizes and the dog understands and accepts the pack roles, you should be able to cuddle and play with him again. it may take a while as he has to relearn many things.
 
#125 ·
neutering will not bring a dog from "/were facing putting him down (because I wouldn't risk that with another family...too dangerous) " and after neutering and 3 hours in behavioral consultation "Seig is a 90# killing machine and I need to respect that this is his first priority"

and yet in your same post page 12 you get "As for no "face kissing" or to the one who couldn't believe we were "face kissing" well....we are ALL face kissing and LOVING it again. Seig is probably the one loving it most. (You'll see that in the pics we posted). We all get kisses from him again and it is consistent and just like it was. "

still I can't help but get an image of Kipling's Jungle Book , the Disney version, with all the mom and dad and brother.
Dog can't deal with our complicated family dynamics .

the interpretation of the dogs action are confusing (to me)
"he doesn't growl at or worse with dad as dad is the alpha he respects." but " But Seig views me as the alpha he doesn't respect " and son is a playmate or brother.

How are you going to be a fair and firm leader for the dog when you have conflict (statement "As for my son, I would say Seig is 100% back to normal but I can't as I don't want to and never would, "test" that with Seig") and residual fear and mistrust . Is the reality that you expect some inappropriate surprise action from the dog?

"Since he was old enough to bark he would defend the vehicle and the door very aggressively. We have had a difficult time having friends of our son stop by for this reason. He is very intimidating and very loud. Although to this point it was all more bark than bite, he is avoided by all but one or two of our son’s friends."

What suggestions did the behaviorist offer for this ? How are you going to correct the dog .
 
#126 ·
I'm very glad things seem to be working out

I do agree with GSDElsa (Justine) tho, you started with a behaviorist and enforcing more boundaries at the same time he was neutered, so it may be more the training vs the actual neutering.

Again, I'm glad things are working out, I would keep up with the training/boundaries as well.
 
#127 ·
Am I wrong in thinking it takes roughly 30 days for the hormones to leave their body after neutering? That is what I was told before. If that is true, then it is mostly likely not the neuter that is causing the change in him. It's probably the new structure.
 
#129 ·
I applaud the OP's commitment to help their pup.

I think that with as much invested in the behaviorist and the neuter, the wanting this to work out as much if not more than the monetary investment, it will be difficult to accept anything that counters anything they say or do.

I hope that as the hormones even out within the coming month, and you all continue to work with the dog, things will continue to improve.

Neutering is not magic, if you did just the neuter, then the dog would come back to himself after the meds wore off, and eventually would fall into his bad habits again. Neutering keeps the dog from reproducing. Neutering and changing your approach with the dog to one that seems to be giving you positive results, will make a difference. Perhaps just changing the approach would have made the difference you were looking for, but what is the point with that question now? You really cannot put his nads back and test the theory.
 
#130 ·
Jax I also believe that is so. Quik example, a friend had neutered her male cat, he was immediately allowed in with her unspayed females, (all in house cats),,whoops, she had a litter of one ,,he wasn't shooting blanks right after neutering apparently:)
 
#131 ·
Right--can't put the nads back. But my comment in regards to them stating the neutering worked a bit of magic is to not somehow convince themselves that because of the surgery he will be somehow different and to let their family "rehab" down.
 
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