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Staged video of Kira's behavior. Aggression?

23K views 192 replies 68 participants last post by  SueDoNimm 
#1 ·
Please don't flame me.

(The kids thought I was playing a game, but I obviously wasn't)

This is an ongoing issue, and sometimes it's not easy to describe what's been going on.

My daughter had a friend over. I decided to leash Kira, and video her actions. I wanted the people here to see what Kira's been doing to all guests.

This girl has been in my home for about an hour. Kira's been "on alert" since she walked in. My wife leashed her, and put her next to her on the sofa. The young girl was sitting in a small dinette area with my other daughters.

Kira was lying down, when I asked the girl to simply get up an walk over to the fridge or recliner.

Please describe what you see.

It's an ugly video, and I'm very embarrassed by her behavior, so please be nice.
I'm looking for answers, not criticism.

 
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#2 ·
I see a very reactive, protective dog who felt the teen was invading yours/hers space, like she was a threat.

Old previous GSD mix was always good with my daughters' friends, who were teens. But anyone else in the house was OK as long as they stayed in their spot. Like the Maytag repairman was fine working in the laundry room as long as he did not leave. However she was not that fierce.

Molly is a lot more protective, mostly because kids are grown and we have few visitors. Recently we had someone come into our house to update some business software. This person has a lifelong fear of dogs. We put Molly upstairs, after a while her down slowly, our desk faces the landing of the stairs. Each time giving her treats telling her it's OK and the software guy ignored her. Slowly bringing her closer and closer on a tab leash, giving treats and using calm voice. He stayed for 3 hours. Molly would alert exactly as Kira did when the guy moved, we got her to relax on the sofa just like Kira. But I have a feeling Molly too would have lunged and barked if he moved too far or too fast.

Molly is getting pretty good with people that have come over, say 4 or more times. The people can move around the house, just not very quickly. Hopefully for you with repeated exposure to the same people while you provide some positive reinforcement (treats, toys, petting, etc) Kira will learn to relax.
 
#3 ·
I wish I could see the girl, actually. I know you said that she thought it was a game, but her question sounded apprehensive at best and there's a fair chance that she was nervous. I am basing this off of your wife's promise that she "won't let [Kira] get to [her]".

It didn't look like an aggressive response to me, just excitement and reactivity. She seemed to sense that something was about to happen beforehand, and reacted when it did.

I really just see a young, reactive dog in a tense atmosphere. Nothing ugly about her reaction. Undesirable, sure, but not ugly. It doesn't seem like an aggressive or protective response to me.
 
#7 ·
The atmosphere was a bit tense, because of the staging. The girl did nothing, but get up and walk away. The giggles came from my 8 year old.
If I would have let Kira go, she would have lunged at the girl, and put her mouth on her arm. Not necessarily bite down. But of course, that's not acceptable either.

Kira will act this way, with every guest in my house, EVERY time someone moves! She will know you're there. You can leave the room, and come back, and she'll act as she did in that video. She never relaxes with people in my house.
 
#5 ·
Just watching that video I see a dog that is in protection mode, which can be considered aggressive. It didn't help that she probably sensed the kids fear. If the girl didn't starting laughing or move quickly, I think it would have been slightly different. As much as I love Kira, per this video...it looks like the safest place for everyone and her is the crate when people are over. What would she have done if you walked over to the girl with you? Did she have any contact with the girl before the video?
 
#9 ·
Just watching that video I see a dog that is in protection mode, which can be considered aggressive. It didn't help that she probably sensed the kids fear. If the girl didn't starting laughing or move quickly, I think it would have been slightly different. As much as I love Kira, per this video...it looks like the safest place for everyone and her is the crate when people are over. What would she have done if you walked over to the girl with you? Did she have any contact with the girl before the video?

The problem is that he has children, they have friends, children laugh, move quickly and are unpredictable. The girl obviously was not a threat to anyone. I agree crate every time.
 
#6 ·
I don't know what to advise except for crating, I agree with you this is unacceptable. I know from reading your posts how hard you work with her, and I'm sorry you are having issues with her. Tessa would be kenneled before anyone entered my house if this was her behavior. I would hate to have something happen to a guest, and have Kira suffer the consequences.
 
#11 ·
Fear or lack of confidence - either way, she wasn't happy to have someone invade her space. Not normal behavior for a stable dog IMHO.

No offense because I know how much you work with her and how great she can be. I think Kira is one of those dogs that's going to bring you years of enjoyment and love, but not the kind of dog you can trust around too many people unless you've got her on a leash.
 
#12 ·
I don't normally post on your threads Anthony but having a dog who was VERY reactive with people; especially children... I have to say something.

You are putting not only Kira in danger but the kids as well.

I am not sure why you are not listening to the others here with crating her, but what you did was VERY bad for Kira, and quite dangerous for the little girl.

You are putting Kira in a position that makes her react without any 'know-how' on how to fix it..

You really need her in a crate or you need to get a trainer with EXPERIENCE with reactive dogs.

I am sorry, staged or not, call it bashing or not, but I feel so bad for Kira.

Work within her thresholds, set up POSITIVE interactions and only stage something that will BENEFIT Kira..

That is all I am saying..
 
#19 ·
Kira will be crated each and every time. No need to worry for her.

As I said, I did this ONCE and ONLY ONCE to illustrate what's been going on. I wanted you to see her reaction to people in my home.
Yes, we were tense. Why? I really couldn't tell you. Maybe because I didn't like what I was doing, but had to "put it out there".

I'm approaching a point where maybe Kira shouldn't be here. I feel bad for her too. This is a bad house for her. She needs someone that truly understands the breed. I don't.
 
#14 ·
Even from the beginning, she was staring at them and giving them the stink eye.
I would've corrected the staring before it escalated into charging.

In addition, everyone was nervous, the atmosphere was highly charged, and she felt it and mirrored it back to you.

But seriously, were she my dog, she would be in a crate when people are over. I know you don't want to do this, and I know you want a different answer, but it's the only good one I've got.
 
#21 ·
Even from the beginning, she was staring at them and giving them the stink eye.
I would've corrected the staring before it escalated into charging.

In addition, everyone was nervous, the atmosphere was highly charged, and she felt it and mirrored it back to you.

But seriously, were she my dog, she would be in a crate when people are over. I know you don't want to do this, and I know you want a different answer, but it's the only good one I've got.
I normally correct as soon as she becomes fixated. In this case, I wanted to show her actions in the video.
 
#15 ·
Anthony - what is the relationship between Kira and your daughter? Does your daughter participate in much of her care? Walks, feeding?

The condition of getting our 1st dog was that my daughters had to walk her. They took turns every other day. One daughter hated to be alone so she would make one of her friends walk with her and our dog, Mandy. I believe because of this, Mandy was able to develop bonds with many of my kids friends in junior high and high school. The dog knew when going out with them she would always have a fun time. Do you think your daughter could do something like this so when her friends come over, Kira will trust them?
 
#22 ·
Never allow anyone to put their hand out when the dog is being tense and stiff. That is playing with fire.
I would also disagree with talking to this dog in a squeaky voice. I am actually not a fan of talking to any dog with a high-pitched squeaky voice. Prey is what makes a squeaky voice.
When someone they need to respect talks to them in a high pitched voice, I feel that it confuses and agitates the dog.
I like to use a low tone with dogs. It calms them.
 
#25 ·
It isn't about 'understanding the breed' but understanding her limitations because of her temperament.
I have a dog that cannot be around young kids, crate is a given.
To re-home my dog.... would be to the rainbow bridge, because she would be a liability without proper management.

And you do understand Kira, you know what/who she is and that she does have some limitations as a 'family' dog. Many GSD's are the same, they aren't for everyone for sure.
 
#26 ·
I'm honestly at crossroads.

I DO crate her. I refuse to KEEP her in a crate. I have kids. They're unpredictable, and will show up with after-school friends. I can't be on guard 24 hours a day.

I'm a nervous wreck that my teenage daughter will come home with a friend after school, and have a problem. I believe Kira will bite someone walking in with her.

Catch-22:
I leave for work at 8am, Wife and kids, same time. Kids start to roll in about 2pm.

Kira is loose all that time. She sits by her front window, and bothers no one. I'd hate to crate her when no one is home, because I'm afraid of who may walk in with my children.
It's a nightmare for me right now.
This dog is such a part of my family, this conversation is ripping my insides out.
 
#54 ·
Kira might be your dog, but you are part of a family, so she is the family dog. Everyone needs to step it up. I am sure that your kids don't want to see their friends hurt or Kira gone. There is no reason that Kira can't be out during the day and placed in the crate when the first kid comes home. Yes they can have the responsibility to let her out, then crate her, there is nothing wrong with her being in there for a couple hours. Once this is done their friends can enter the house. Have you thought about calling the local humane society to see if they have a behaviorist you can talk to? This is not something you can do on your own any longer, your family needs to understand what needs to be done and then do it. Kira needs an outlet of some sort...agility, nosework, etc. It doesn't have to be competitive, just for fun, but something she can do well in and enjoy.
 
#28 ·
I think it can be managed. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Is it possible to have your daughter come in, crate the dog, throw in some yummy treats in there, and then lead her friends into the house?
When people come over, I like to leave Hans in and expen that is in our bedroom. He has quiet time, and people don't have to worry about a scary German Shepherd around.
 
#32 ·
My Aiden is also not the greatest around children. The high pitched noises and quick flailing movements just freak him out. It takes management, patience, and training, but it is not impossible. I don't want you to think Kira doesn't belong with you, because I do believe she does. I just think its time to alter the living situation to make everyone safer and more comfortable. She's an adult now.

Kira is an obedient dog. When she starts to stare at people like that, I would correct her. If it means putting her away in a crate in the other room, then so be it. I usually give Aiden a verbal "no" if I see him eyeballing anything in a way that I'm not comfortable with. He is always locked away with younger children in the house. I don't believe now that he would seek out and go after a child, but I don't want to risk a child stumbling over him by accident and setting him off.

Put her in a part of the house with gates and explain to your children that Kira is not to be approached by anyone other than immediate family in that house. No guests. If they are too young to respect that rule (I'm not sure of their ages), then building a kennel with a little doghouse outside is a great option for keeping everyone safe just while you're at work. That way she can have some area to stretch her legs and roam a bit, but still be safely contained and comfortable. There are some absolutely beautiful kennels out there if you've got the money for it.

Amish Bulk Bin Hopper Dumpster Container 4000 LBS Capacity Fork Lift Operation items in PaDutchBuilders store on eBay!

Also, I know I'm probably close to 3 hours or so from you, but if you ever feel like making the drive up, my training club would love to have you. Maybe give you some insight to her reactivity and maybe she'd like to channel some energy into IPO. You never know..
 
#37 ·
My Aiden is also not the greatest around children. The high pitched noises and quick flailing movements just freak him out. It takes management, patience, and training, but it is not impossible. I don't want you to think Kira doesn't belong with you, because I do believe she does. I just think its time to alter the living situation to make everyone safer and more comfortable. She's an adult now.

Kira is an obedient dog. When she starts to stare at people like that, I would correct her. If it means putting her away in a crate in the other room, then so be it. I usually give Aiden a verbal "no" if I see him eyeballing anything in a way that I'm not comfortable with. He is always locked away with younger children in the house. I don't believe now that he would seek out and go after a child, but I don't want to risk a child stumbling over him by accident and setting him off.

Put her in a part of the house with gates and explain to your children that Kira is not to be approached by anyone other than immediate family in that house. No guests. If they are too young to respect that rule (I'm not sure of their ages), then building a kennel with a little doghouse outside is a great option for keeping everyone safe just while you're at work. That way she can have some area to stretch her legs and roam a bit, but still be safely contained and comfortable. There are some absolutely beautiful kennels out there if you've got the money for it.

Amish Bulk Bin Hopper Dumpster Container 4000 LBS Capacity Fork Lift Operation items in PaDutchBuilders store on eBay!

Also, I know I'm probably close to 3 hours or so from you, but if you ever feel like making the drive up, my training club would love to have you. Maybe give you some insight to her reactivity and maybe she'd like to channel some energy into IPO. You never know..
I always correct her at the point of her staring. I let it go for the video.

I do have a fenced yard. She goes back there, and she loves it. The problem I have, has more to do with the kids not following protocol. I know they're gonna walk in with their friends, and not pay attention to what I ask of them.


Anthony, I just asked a friend/respected acquaintance about reactive dogs and she strongly advised a Control Unleashed class, or at least reading the book.

Control Unleashed: Creating a Focused and Confident Dog: Leslie McDevitt: 9781892694171: Amazon.com: Books

Welcome to Dogwise.com
I ordered the book. It's worth a read.
Thank you.
 
#33 ·
#34 ·
I happen to think your a great owner who is trying very hard to help kira be as happy as she can be. I don't feel sorry for her at all. I feel sorry for dogs left outside with no human interaction. You obviously were doing the video to get help. And a trainer will want to see it too, I'm sure. I would try to get someone experienced in to help you.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App
 
#35 ·
CU helped me to manage my reactive dog. I was lucky to be able to take a class based on the book. Still we have limitations. I accept my dog for who she is and who she'll never be.
I just try never, ever to set her up to fail.
 
#36 · (Edited)
Oh Anthony. You are a brave soul. :) I don't have a lot of advice for you but I can tell you what I did, even with a dog that doesn't not seem to have a reactive bone (towards people) in his body.

From the very beginning I was very careful in his interactions with my kids and their friends. As you know, I have 3 teens too, ages 13-17. We have kids constantly coming and going, and I swear we always have several extra for the weekend (I should really hang a shingle out on my doorstep, "The Martin Home for Wayward Children" but that's another thread). I am ALWAYS with the dog around the kids. Even now--I absolutely never allow them or their friends to play or handle him alone. RARELY, if it is a kid I've known for years, and it's just them and my two more savvy ones, and I know this is a dog-savvy kid who RESPECTS my rules, I will allow them to play outside if he's out there, but this is a very recent development, as he's approaching two.

What this means is, I took control of every situation with kids (even mine alone in the beginning) and Rocket knew it from the time he was a wee pup. I don't think he ever had to feel that I wasn't there to protect him from anything strange. I am not suggesting that YOU did not do this. Just something to consider, and if you haven't done it, or done it to that degree, it might be a place to back up to and start over. I only allowed brief interactions also. Kept them VERY short, just a minute or two, and then I took Rocket off and played/trained with him, or gave him a bone, or something else. I also blocked off the basement, much to his chagrin. (That's the other side of this coin--he genetically seems to be very into kids. He has always loved them). I knew that kids can inadvertently "teach" dogs/pups things that we don't desire!

Also, how "savvy" dog-wise are your kids? I irritated the crap out of mine with my mantras of how to "behave" and what "not to do" and "do it this way" and etc etc etc. The other advantage is, mine have always had a big dog, so that probably makes a difference. Maybe if you are able to find a reactive class or trainer, it can be a family thing. Doesn't Leslie McDivitt (SP?) "Control Unleased" deal with reactive dogs? Is there DVD's or videos you could watch in the meantime?


There MUST be a good GSD trainer somewhere in that area. I know you've met up with someone from the forum? Do they have any suggestions?

I also agree that she is still young, still pliable to helping learn appropriate venues to release her anxiety. And I do think that she could probably "feel" some tension in that room.

Wish I could offer more, but I guess I can only really offer my support. :)
 
#38 ·
This is abnormal behavior for a German shepherd. I would contact your nearest shepherd rescue and get their recommendations for the best trainers in your area. It looks like she may need some private training. I think group obedience classes would also be good for her. In the meantime, she should obviously be crated or leashed while guests are in your home. I also recommend the book "Agression in Dogs" by Brenda Aloff. Kira seems like a really great dog and I hope you can help her with her issues.
 
#61 ·
I would not trust the younger kids to walk Kira...and it shouldn't be their responsibility. Many GSD's are purchased as companions for the adults, and not really 'family' pets. I would never want my kids to take Onyx out in public with the reactivity she has. Unless my kids knew exactly how to handle her and expect situations to happen(dog running up). It would be too much of a liability.
 
#42 ·
It's seems that Kira has a reactive temperament/confidence issue, could be genetic or could be due to lack of socialization, under exercise, under stimulation. It also seems like Kira is lacking respect for her owners, though it's really hard to judge from just that short video.

Has she clearly bonded with any single individual in the home and is that individual providing her primary care/exercise?
How is her obedience? I believe good/continued obedience training can help build up the dogs confidence and forge the bond/respect between owner/dog (combined with plenty of exercise)

Definitely seek help from a professional but in the meantime practicing NILF and upping her exercise/obedience training might help.
 
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