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Staged video of Kira's behavior. Aggression?

23K views 192 replies 68 participants last post by  SueDoNimm 
#1 ·
Please don't flame me.

(The kids thought I was playing a game, but I obviously wasn't)

This is an ongoing issue, and sometimes it's not easy to describe what's been going on.

My daughter had a friend over. I decided to leash Kira, and video her actions. I wanted the people here to see what Kira's been doing to all guests.

This girl has been in my home for about an hour. Kira's been "on alert" since she walked in. My wife leashed her, and put her next to her on the sofa. The young girl was sitting in a small dinette area with my other daughters.

Kira was lying down, when I asked the girl to simply get up an walk over to the fridge or recliner.

Please describe what you see.

It's an ugly video, and I'm very embarrassed by her behavior, so please be nice.
I'm looking for answers, not criticism.

 
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#135 ·
Anthony, I've been following your threads on Kira for a while. This makes me so sad. I do really hope you can find someone who can help you and your family work with Kira and that everything works out for the best. I do believe with time and proper training, it can all work out. I wish the best for you and Kira.


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#136 ·
sheesh I'm off a few hours and come back to read this:)

First, Anthony, again your a brave soul, I totally understand why you 'set up' Kira and did the video, lot of opinions tho that aren't very helpful nor understanding.

But then, I've seen alot of good info as well..Here is my 2 cents

So what if your family isn't as 'into' Kira as you are. She is YOUR dog, YOU CAN manage her. I know you love her so don't think about rehoming to god knows where or returning her to the breeder, cause you know my opinion of him:(

This is what I would do to manage, Since the kids are home before you or your wife, lay down the law, NO ONE other than your own kids are allowed IN the house without you or your wife there. PERIOD>

Crate her or get a nice big kennel for her and keep her in it or leashed to you when people are over.

There are dogs with issues far worse than Kira out there, management is easy if rules are inforced and lived by.

YOU CAN do this.

No more setting her up for negative reactions, know what you have, deal with it, and get your family on board. I really hope it can work for you, because I just can't see Kira with someone other than yourself.
 
#138 ·
sheesh I'm off a few hours and come back to read this:)

First, Anthony, again your a brave soul, I totally understand why you 'set up' Kira and did the video, lot of opinions tho that aren't very helpful nor understanding.

But then, I've seen alot of good info as well..Here is my 2 cents

So what if your family isn't as 'into' Kira as you are. She is YOUR dog, YOU CAN manage her. I know you love her so don't think about rehoming to god knows where or returning her to the breeder, cause you know my opinion of him:(

This is what I would do to manage, Since the kids are home before you or your wife, lay down the law, NO ONE other than your own kids are allowed IN the house without you or your wife there. PERIOD>

Crate her or get a nice big kennel for her and keep her in it or leashed to you when people are over.

There are dogs with issues far worse than Kira out there, management is easy if rules are inforced and lived by.

YOU CAN do this.

No more setting her up for negative reactions, know what you have, deal with it, and get your family on board. I really hope it can work for you, because I just can't see Kira with someone other than yourself.
:thumbup:Oh so well said:thumbup:
 
#137 ·
"If you have it , deal with it , but do recognize that there are rock solid GSD out there with high thresholds very capable of doing any sport or real life protection and are able to sail through life , any situation, environment , often are not ever giving out any signal as to the power that they have. A low threshold dog requires extra care -- your life revolves around the dog -- I would rather have a dog that fits into my life "

This is so true. And I can't speak for Anthony. I will say that I started at a place where I assumed finding a reputable breeder with decent, titled dogs and a good facility, (checklist, checklist, checklist) would deliver that to me. What I did NOT know, and I do now, is that genetics is what will deliver that to me. That a breeder is only as good as the genetics of the lines he's breeding.

Honestly, I thank my lucky stars that my dog seems to be solidly nerved in most respects. This is not because I looked for that in the lines; I got lucky, plain and simple. Is he everything a GSD should be? I don't honestly know, but I know that for my life, for what happens in my life, he's pretty close. I am not sure of how "appropriate" his defense and/or civil aggression drives are, but NOT having "enough" of those (if that is the case, I really don't know) is much easier to work around than having to manage reactivity issues as some have to. Will my next dog be purchased with genetics in mind first and foremost? Yes absolutely, unless I find one in rescue or some such thing.

Anthony is a smart and thoughtful owner who only wants the best for his family and his dog. I'm sure he will think things over carefully and move forward in whatever he feels is the best direction.
 
#139 ·
Anthony, I haven't read the whole thread but here's what I have to offer.

Jackson pretty much acts the same way as Kira, and he has come a long way. What I do for him is crate him in an area where he can see what is going on, and that guests are not a threat. He barks, stares, etc for a while, and then once he is able to see everyone's interactions WITHOUT me being right there at his side, he realizes that it is OKAY, and calms down and wants to be a part of the excitment too. I let him out, and he generally is fine. In certain situations with certain people, he needs to be re-crated or put in the basement, away from the activity. I also correct any behavior I do not approve of. If he is acting out in any way, such as barking and hackling at someone in my home after he has been fine with them for the previous half hour (for instance someone walking past him looking in the opposite direction), he gets yelled at. Certain situations are non-threatening and not even directed remotley towards him, and if he is going to call the shots on that, he will get corrected. Nobody is pushing him. For US, it has been a balance of him calming himself down in his crate first, letting him be a part of the activity once/if he is CALM, and laying down boundaries to what is acceptable and what is not. You also need to pay very close attention to Kira's body language. If she is tense, she needs crate time to observe instead of being a part of it all.
 
#141 ·
Saying it is YOU , Mrs K. The dog had issues from the earliest in the park . Anthony may not have management down pat , but there is nothing that he is doing that would make me hesitate having him as an owner, NOR SHOULD ANYONE ELSE! Firm on that . Sometimes you don't create a problem you inheret it . That dog would be the same in any home .
And you add to a problem! Never said it wasn't the dog.
The problem is there and we all know it. However, she is not a bad dog. He is adding to the problem by nitpicking everything apart instead of going out and getting help. I do not know if he ever got the help of a behaviorist instead of coming on the forum.
However, (in case he did not) it is something he should have done a long time ago and I remember advising him the exact same thing I advised tonight. Go out, find a good club, get in contact with knowledgeable people that are THERE and can see the dog instead of coming on here and posting more and more issues the dog has.

The forum is nice and well for getting advise, but the forum isn't there. YOU are not there! We do not know what is happening throughout the day, we do not know how tense he is, if he already expects things to happen which ADDS to the already existing problem.

The Forum does NOT replace a good trainer and behaviorist that is THERE and gives him HANDS ON training on how to handle himself an the dog.

Because, let's face it. While she may have issues, being in a household, where the majority doesn't like her creates an unhealthy environment which fuels the problem.

So I am pretty sure that Kira is NOT all to blame for what is actually going on and that is why I am so fed up in blaming the dog.

Get a behaviorist involved already. Start managing her. Lay down the rules.

It's been advised over and over.

He has done an incredible job so far but it's time for professional help!
 
#143 ·
Anthony,

I haven't read all the posts and I am certainly not an expert, but here is what I would do.
Crate Kira
You stand close to crate. (try your best to relax, I know this is a stressful situation and she is picking up on that)
Have a guest enter house
Have the guest speak to Kira in a super animated positive tone (from across the room and no eye contact)"Good Kira", "What a preeety girl." etc., Have the guest keep this up right over all of Kira's objections. This may take awhile.
Have the guest keep talking while you stand close to her cage with a peanut butter kong loaded and ready.
The minute Kira relaxes or quiets, give her a reward.
If you can get to this point, have the guest leave her sight and in a few minutes re-enter the room and repeat.
Kira is a beautiful dog! Good luck, they can be a challenge, can't they?

Again, just what I would try.
 
#146 ·
This sounds good, but in reality, dogs should view their crates as sanctuaries, not a barrier between them and "the threat".
Dogs have been known to show barrier aggression when people walk by (more rare, IME) and when other animals walk by (more common, IME).

When a crate is utilized, it should be in a quiet room off away from the rest of the house. It should be seen as a positive thing, but also a neutral thing, just a spot to go "chill".

I'd also put up a gate so as to be a visual reminder that people aren't allowed in that area where the dog is chilling.

In our case, our GSD is in my daughter's bedroom, crated. We don't anticipate or expect he should be loose and running around when my kids have their friends over. Heck, half my non-GSD dogs are put up/put in another room when the kids have their friends over, because we're not paying attention to the interactions.

When things calm down again, the dogs may or may not be able to come out and interact, or the kids meander off to their rooms and the dogs are in the main living area again.
 
#145 ·
Assuming this was directed towards me...because she is perfect for our lifestyle! I love her personality and quirks. If I could clone her, I would, LOL.

I guess that would be the same as asking someone...so and so's child went to Harvard on full scholarship, smart, athletic, good-looking, wouldn't you wish that was your child instead?

To me, perfection is in the eye of the beholder as well. What one deems as a perfect dog may not be for someone else.

I will say, if my household were anything like Anthony's, I would probably want a more sociable dog. But then again, hubby and I are not sociable people :p
 
#147 ·
Started reading some of the replies, and my mind went to my son and his HA dog. Kira is still young and I do believe with the right training and some management, she can be part of your family.
My son's dog is a pit bull, about 6 years old now. They had him since he was a puppy. No one knows why he turned out to be human aggressive, but it is what it is. Very few people can be around him. I am one of them that can. My son has struggled with what to do with him for a while now. He has young children, 9 and 4 years old. He has "trained" the 9 year old to NEVER open the front door to let someone in unless Goti is in his crate. Goti is ALWAYS crated in the basement if my son has guests. For him, there is no option to rehome. This dog would have to be PTS. So, it is a matter of management. Constant management. Kira doesn't seem anywhere near this dogs aggression!
My family had dogs that had to be put away before anyone came in. I was a teenager and knew this. It just became a way of life.
I think your kids can learn how to handle this situation with Kira. I did with my dogs.
 
#148 ·
Anthony, if you're still reading this....... My friend's family had a female teenage GSD with lots of issues. The husband never wanted a dog, the kids wanted a Lab and not a GSD. The family was not involved in the dog's care, it was basically my friend doing all the work. At some point my friend decided to rehome the dog (=shelter), and I decided to take her in and try to work with her. Now, I'm not a GSD expert by any means, nor am I proficient in dog whispering. But, I gave it a shot and it worked. Once the dog was given a structure, consistent rules, exercise and 2 stable dogs in my household to show her how to behave, she changed.

My friend was able to take her dog back home after 6 weeks with a list of things that I had given her on what to do and what not to do, and the dog is still living with them now, 3 years later.

I don't believe that I had mad skills, but being taken out of a situation that was frustrating for everybody - family wasn't involved and disliked the dog, because of the way the dog behaved, thus the dog behaved worse and worse - was the best thing for everybody involved. Maybe it would be a good idea to have your dog trained away from home, as someone else mentioned. If I was able to help my friend with zero GSD background, then I'm positive that a real trainer could bring about the change that your dog and family need.
 
#150 ·
I'm so sorry Anthony, I know this is something that has been stressing you out badly with her. You are a fantastic owner.... this dog is not a product of her raising, but more so her genetics. She's still a great dog, she does have some faults though. I think you could manage her just fine. Just keep your head up... find someone to help, or find a way to get everyone to stop being selfish and help you out. I'm not talking about caring for the dog... I'm talking about following RULES. When a friend comes over, Kira needs to be crated BEFORE they walk in. No reason they can't just walk in and put the dog in her crate. If someone is staying over... you said your house was on the larger side... anyway you can confine her to one side and just make sure the kids know that's where she is and no friend is to go into that zone. Maybe gates of some sort?

I wish I was closer, I would help you out. I think Kira is a great dog. She's just a little special in some areas.

Good luck in whatever you decide.
 
#151 ·
Anthony, I have read most of your threads about Kira, and I might even have posted a response on one or two.

I really can't comment one way or the other about whether or not it is time to find her a new home. Only you can know when you and/or your family have reached the tipping point. It is different for every home. I don't think you should be guilted into rehoming her or into keeping her.

I was right where you are with Tanner not too many years ago. I was exhausted by this dog, and his issues were just overwhelming to me. He wasn't reactive to people. Tanner was horribly reactive to other dogs. Even the dogs he had lived with since he was 11 weeks old. I was worried that a fight would happen and one of my children would get hurt as collateral damage. I had an 18 year old son living at home who had the common sense of a hamster. I had an 8 year old son that I worried wouldn't be able to get out of the way if a dog fight were to happen around him. We crated and rotated, but it was a constant worry that someone (my goofy teenager, my well meaning 8 year old or my know-it-all husband or even myself) would make a mistake. Oh, and Tanner tried to kill our cats whenever he had the chance.

I would have rehomed him if I felt like I had a viable option. His breeder would not have been ethical in placing him (I believed) and I was involved in rescue myself and I knew how hard he would be to place, given his behavioral issues and his major health issues.

I kept him. It worked out. I worked with him. I took a deep breath and admitted to how utterly sick and tired I was of living with a dog like that, and decided not to make a decision when I was that disgusted with the whole situation. Then I found a trainer who could help me address the issues that went beyond basic obedience. Tanner was who Tanner was going to be. I had to learn how to deal with him, as he sat in front of me, trying to chew through the tether to get to the cat.

I am not telling you this story to point out that others have pushed through and come out whole, but rather to point out that the best decisions are made with a cool head and a detached heart. Give yourself that opportunity to reach the best decision possible. Not when you are feeling heartbroken, or overwhelmed or disgusted or cheated (and, believe me, when you live with dogs like ours, it is entirely possible to feel all that in the space of an hour).

It might be that the best choice for Kira, your family and you is to find a reputable rescue to work through and place her in another home. Or maybe the best choice is to keep her, and work with the dog. If you decide to keep her, you will need to change how you live with her. Remember the definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again and expect different results each time. You need professional help if you keep her. It is just that simple. And there is no shame in that. Think of what a freaking awesome trainer you will be as a result.

Keeping a companion dog should be a mostly pleasant experience. You should never feel like you are facing some kind of prison sentence in deciding to live with this dog. Or any dog. But remember, too, that you can make some changes and find more balance with her if that is the route you decide to take. You aren't agreeing to life always being the way it is right this minute.

Give yourself a chance to catch your emotional breath before deciding. And don't let ANYONE guilt you into anything. You don't have to live your life with eyes in the back of your head, or force your family to live like hermits, just because you have a GSD. That is just as ridiculous as thinking you have to have a dog that allows every stranger within a 100 mile radius to walk into your home unchallenged, to be met with kisses and a wagging tail.

Good luck. It stinks to get to this point.
Sheilah
 
#156 ·
... decided not to make a decision when I was that disgusted with the whole situation.
Add 'tired and frustrated' to disgusted, and I think this is the most important thing right now. Whatever you end up doing, don't make a decision until you aren't in an emotional tailspin. You need a break of some kind, then re-assess with a clearer head.

I did that with my last dog (made a life-changing decision when I was in a really bad state), and regretted it. It turned out just fine for the dog. I made sure of that, he had a long and happy life. But, it was not the decision I should have made and I would never have made it if I hadn't been so frustrated/depressed/angry/exhausted that I couldn't think straight and had been that way for months.
 
#152 ·
Ok, I got up to page 12, maybe I will go the rest of the way.

Build a kennel, get a pad lock. You can kennel her in the garage or basement or backyard. When you are there, you walk her, you train her, you let her lay at your feet while you mess with your computer.

When you are not there, the dog is locked in her kennel. The kids don't care about her, or don't want her, so they shouldn't bother her. If they have friends over, either tether her to you, and stay away from the brats, or put her in her kennel.

If you continue to train her regularly this will be a very different dog in another year or so. She needs to mature a bit, and you need to manage her environment a bit better. That's all.

I don't think you need to give her up. If you do give her up, then it is your decision, you have kids there, and unless you are willing to put the dog up so that there is no accidents.

I am sorry you are at this point with your girl. I know you love her. She needs management first, then training, and time to mature. I hope you can give her these, or find someone who will be able to.
 
#153 ·
Agree with sit,stay! We all have days you just want to throw in the towel! Cody was my first gsd and was diffinately a learning and growing experience for both of us! He had his quirks and problems, there were some people that came to the house he just never warmed up to, others that may have came over once ever couple years and greeted like his long lost friend! My kids knew they had to put him up or in the yard if they brought someone over he didn't know or like, they knew it was a safety measure that could not be breached, for their friends and Cody. He was my heart, I loved him to no end. I was his main caretaker and squeeze! He mellowed with age, so as sit, stay suggested, think it over.
 
#160 ·
:thumbup: That is a sign of good leadership.

And as a general remark, not aimed at anyone here, people tend to defend reactive behaviour as protective, and part of the GSD temperament. Protective is COMPLETELY different from reactive. Protective behaviour comes from a place of complete inner confidence and strenght. It comes from a dog that is confident and comfortable out in the world and is non-reactive to everyday situations.
 
#155 ·
I still think you need to get a good crate and have her sit with the company IN her crate. I wouldn't be hovering over her, 'protecting her' either. She can't hurt anyone that way, and she will be put in the midst of the activity all while she is in her safe place (crate). She can pick up on the behaviors of the visitors, the sounds, and smells without actually being a part of it or being a danger to anyone. She should learn that people are not a threat. Like I said, Jackson has come a looooong way since we started doing this. I am not sure how much you use a leash on her while there is company, but if she is anything like my dog, that would be a no go!
 
#157 ·
As long as people are not trying to approach her, while she is in a crate and backed into a corner, it might be a good idea. However, I would only do that while people consistently ignore her completely and she's just there.

Also, I would not do that while kids were in the room. I wouldn't trust kids not to approach the "fluffeee Doggie".

A reactive/aggressive dog in a crate, being backed in the corner is bad juju...
 
#158 ·
Hi all.
I've decided to update the thread.

For starters, I want to say that there is a TON of wonderful advice. And I thank you for that.

I just want to say that:

I love my Kira to pieces. :) I would never let her go :)

I'm installing a "run" on the side of my home. It faces north, so sun and high heat won't be an issue. I have a side door entrance, and it will would give immediate access for the kids to put her in, and take her out, without having to walk out back. It has security cameras, so I can easily check up on her.... Even if I'm not at home, via iPhone app.
The area is small. It's a 10 foot x 50 foot long dead space. It already has a fence, or house on three sides. I'll secure the open end with fencing. I decided to build a small shelter house for her too.

As far as in the house, I'll seek out professional help to come witness her behavior with strangers. She's gets freaky, whether it's children or adult, so it's important that I recognize the cause of this.

I realize that some of my threads have caused some frustration. I can understand why. YES, I admit, I've been told and warned about this numerous times, and I'll take the blame for not being as proactive as I should have. But HONESTLY, people need to learn how to act. Some of the comments were very condescending. We're NOT ALL professional dog handlers, and not everything they say is so clearly understood.
But, I do understand that they're all dog lovers, and from personal experience, we tend to get very temperamental about issues that could ultimately harm the dog.

I've made a firm decision to no longer post "Kira did this or that" threads, but I will continue to offer some lovely photos and videos.

In relation to this thread, I think it would benefit others, if they were to get updated on the results of professional intervention.

We're all in it together. Whether you like it or not.

Next time you feel compelled to be condescending, hit the "close browser" button. Much easier that way.
 
#159 · (Edited)
Hi all.

I love my Kira to pieces. :) I would never let her go :)

I realize that some of my threads have caused some frustration. I can understand why. YES, I admit, I've been told and warned about this numerous times, and I'll take the blame for not being as proactive as I should have. But HONESTLY, people need to learn how to act. Some of the comments were very condescending. We're NOT ALL professional dog handlers, and not everything they say is so clearly understood. But, I do understand that they're all dog lovers, and from personal experience, we tend to get very temperamental about issues that could ultimately harm the dog.

In relation to this thread, I think it would benefit others, if they were to get updated on the results of professional intervention.

We're all in it together. Whether you like it or not.

Next time you feel compelled to be condescending, hit the "close browser" button. Much easier that way.
Well said, Anthony!!
And I'm glad to see you're still here and that you've got a plan of action, too. Kira is such a beautiful dog that you've put so much work into already. I personally think you've been VERY proactive with her! She doesn't belong with anyone else but you. :)
 
#161 ·
Originally Posted by cilset
i am totaly newbie in dog owning but i have read here somewhere " dog is not deciding who is and who is not welcomed in MY house" and i am sticking to that phrase.

And there are many roads to that end.

For some dogs, it's a simple, it's, knock it off. For others, it helps to be leashed, for others, crated. It also doesn't have to be punitive or corrected - you can turn it around and make it a positive experience for all involved.
 
#162 ·
Anthony,
I commend you for being proactive with Kira. I know you have been all along and only want what's best for her. I'm glad that you have decided to keep her and work with her. You love her and in your hands I'm sure that things can be worked out in her and your family's best interest. I'm glad that you will keep us updated on her progress, because I like others I'm sure will learn from your experience.
Kira is a lovely dog and I look forward to seeing your videos and pictures of her! :)
 
#168 ·
Nicely said. I followed the entire thread and my heart was breaking for you Anthony. So glad that you have found a solution that will keep your beautiful girl with you.
 
#165 ·
Anthony, I am so pleased that you sat back and developed a plan that will work for all...It was hard to see you in such a state of despair and my PM to you was only a result of that..Please forgive if I overstepped the boundaries with my thoughts..Good luck on your new plan...jan
 
#170 ·
I'm glad to see where you came out in all this. I have to admit, I was worried. Not just about Kira, but about your emotional and mental state with all this. The bitch I had put me in the same position over and over for years. The only thing that struck me is... whether or not the kids "like" the dog or not, it's YOUR home. If they can't take the time to put Kira up before letting friends in, then no friends in. Period. I think Kira is workable. My bitch was not. Even so, the feeling of doing something terribly wrong never leaves. I wish you all the best.
 
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