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Staged video of Kira's behavior. Aggression?

23K views 192 replies 68 participants last post by  SueDoNimm 
#1 ·
Please don't flame me.

(The kids thought I was playing a game, but I obviously wasn't)

This is an ongoing issue, and sometimes it's not easy to describe what's been going on.

My daughter had a friend over. I decided to leash Kira, and video her actions. I wanted the people here to see what Kira's been doing to all guests.

This girl has been in my home for about an hour. Kira's been "on alert" since she walked in. My wife leashed her, and put her next to her on the sofa. The young girl was sitting in a small dinette area with my other daughters.

Kira was lying down, when I asked the girl to simply get up an walk over to the fridge or recliner.

Please describe what you see.

It's an ugly video, and I'm very embarrassed by her behavior, so please be nice.
I'm looking for answers, not criticism.

 
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#43 ·
Like GatorDog said about her dog Aiden.... that's the same with Duke. Duke does not enjoy kids at all. They are too high energy with random movements and energy changes. It's too much for him. He doesn't react in that exact way, but he will lower his head, cower his body and growl. I have gotten him to the point that kids can pet him (he actually loves my 8 year old niece), but I am afraid he'll go off if a kid gets too rough or trips over him, or runs at him. So, he goes into the crate whenever children are here and I watch that that door into the dogs room is NOT touched, and I make it very clear when kids are around him (out in public) to NOT touch him. If I feel necessary (when I first got him I did), I put a muzzle on him.

Honestly, this is something I would definitely contact a behaviorist about since you can't avoid kids altogether. Even if you just crate her every time, there is bound to be an accident. Someone doesn't listen, or dog is out to potty and then comes inside, out on a walk and neighborhood kids come up to you, etc. She looks very nervous with the kids being there.

It sucks, but you'll have to manage this issue forever with her. Best thing to do is get a behaviorist or trainer to help you nip it in the butt now so it doesn't go further.
 
#48 ·
Honestly, I don't want to do it anymore. I've reached my threshold. No trainers, no classes, no behaviorists. I'm tired, stressed, and done.
I'm missing hours at work, because I worry what's going on when I'm not home.
I have kids having sleep-overs, getting up during the night for a drink. I hear her bark at them during the night.


Time to close this thread.

I want to thank everyone for their sincere help. I do know that all of you meant well, and I did appreciate all the advice.
 
#50 ·
Does Kira have a 'place' command ? Like a command where she goes to lay in her crate / a bed ?
Maybe try teaching that so when your kids get home, they can tell her to go to her place and give her a kong to keep her busy / distracted.

Honestly, when she laid her head down on the couch she was in a very relaxed and vulnerable position.
I think you need to stop correcting for things she shouldn't do and praise her for things she does do right (relaxing).
Are you not able to hold her attention when kids are there ? You can't give her a 20 minute obedience session in the presence of the kids ?

i think if there are kids there, you need to praise / treat everytime she looks away. everytime she licks her lip, lays down, shakes, etc.

ALSO.
In the video, it looks like before Kira jumps off the couch, your wife starts wrapping the leash in her hand, tightening it and bracing. This sets Kira off more. I know its because your wife was anticipating Kira doing that and saw her get so focused.. But I think it just added to the situation.
 
#51 · (Edited)
The dog is very reactive .
There is no in between bark . Movement of the child and the dog flies off the couch hackles up - fear arousal , in a situation which has zero threat . Fear .
Liability.

it's all here in this thread http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ugly/217906-kira-charged-guest-my-home-6.html

and yes llombardo that was your evidence of "I have not seen anything that he has posted that suggests that his dog is a fear aggressive dog that will flip like a switch."
Can't offer anything that I have not said a hundred times before in almost every thread started by Anthony .
Training will give Anthony control , but Anthony can't have dedicated focus on her all the time, eyes at the back of his head , which is what is required , or the dog is crated or kenneled .

Training is not going to change her base temperament.
 
#52 ·
Anthony,

You are breaking my heart... you seem so down-trodden. And, if I feel that way, as a bystander, I can only imagine what you are feeling as you are debating what to do!

Remember, every dog has its own strengths and weaknesses. I REALLY think that Kira can get to a place where it works for your family. She seems to have far more strengths than weaknesses.

I know you said that other people you know with GSDs don't have the same ISSUE... but every dog is different. Work with the dog you have and you may be surprised by the results you get. Kira is SOOO young. You really don't know what is possible with her until you explore other training/management options.

I actually think that when you tell your family that you are thinking of re-homing Kira, you will see a drastic turn around in their compliance vis-a-vis guest management protocols : ).

Wishing you and your family all the best no matter what you decide!
 
#55 ·
Anthony,
Please don't despair. Kira is still very young and there is time to adjust and adapt for both of you. I've read all of your threads and I picture you as sort of an old-school family man who only wants the best for his girls. Perhaps it's time for your girls to help you out by helping more with Kira's needs.
Best Wishes.
B
 
#56 ·
Carmen, you're very right. Yes, you have been seeing and saying this all along. If I lived alone, and Kra was my pet, I wouldn't have a single issue to write about. She listens and respects me.
The video was staged, and under normal circumstances, I would've corrected her before she made her first sound. The problem is as you stated.... I don't have eyes in back of my head. I can't sit home all day, and dog sit.

My kids don't care. They wouldn't care if I got rid of her. They have no interest in her, or training, feeding, etc....
I told them last night, that getting rid of her might be an option, and they just shrugged their shoulders, and justified it.

You can beat me up all you want. I did the best I could. You may think I ignored your advice, but I didn't. It's frustrating to sit here, and correct, correct,correct, then no one else follows up. I'm doing it alone. It's become MY DOG.

I'm 54 years old.
She's become too stressful for me.



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#91 ·
My kids don't care. They wouldn't care if I got rid of her. They have no interest in her, or training, feeding, etc....
I told them last night, that getting rid of her might be an option, and they just shrugged their shoulders, and justified it.




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I am so sorry that they feel this way. It makes everything so much harder.
 
#57 ·
My distant observation may seem harsh, but I have raised 3 girls with dogs. It seems that your girls need NILF. A family is a joint effort, and your daughters need to appreciate your time, effort and pain in this issue. I just can't fathom the behavior from them that you describe. My girls always had to pitch in and help, whether house work, taking care of the dogs, or at the business we owned. I hope this works out for you.
 
#59 ·
Call your breeder Anthony, let them help you in placing her. They bred her, they should know that her nerve base isn't all that. Even with her champion bloodlines. Sorry you have to make this decision. I will say though, that Onyx mellowed out at maturity. Not sure you want to wait it out with constant management until Kira matures, though.
 
#60 · (Edited)
I think that for the longest time, Anthony has been asking members here how he can turn the dog into a go anywhere, be around anybody kind of dog.
I think the realization finally hit home that this is not going to happen, no matter how many trainers, behaviorists, and other people he consults.
I understand that people here feel for for Kira, but we should also take into consideration Anthony's situation.
Being solely responsible for the care and management of a dog such as this has to get exhausting, especially when he has work and other responsibilities. Doing this with no support… I can't even imagine.

There has to be someone on the board that would jump at the chance to take her.
PS -- From when he has said before, I take it the breeder is not very helpful.
 
#64 ·
Never thought I'd shed a tear.
But I did.

This little girl has captured my heart, and I feel helpless for her. It's not her fault.
She always tries her best to please me, and impress. She respects me, and engages at all times.
This is a tough one.

I think it's best I try to go get some work done.

Kids are off today, and they had a sleep-over. I'm expecting mayhem, as soon as they wake up.
Wife went to work, and it looks as if I'll have to stay home to tend to matters. This is big problem for me.
 
#65 ·
This is like that movie with Bill Murray - Groundhound Day. The samething over and over...

Anyway, a different prospective from what I observed. You set the stage for this. You are standing there with a camera, your wife has Kira on the couch leashed, tension everywhere. There is a moment when Kira looks over at you....I honestly think this dog thinks she's acting the way you want her to act.

Her bahaviour is bad, but so is yours.

I don't know....
 
#66 · (Edited)
Seriously.. DO YOU THINK I SIT THERE WITH A ******* CAMERA ALL DAY????

Do you read what i wrote. I ALLOWED this to happen THIS TIME. I wanted to document her behavior, so I can have a clear understanding what's going on.
Don't be a hypocrite.

I don't see where she looked at me. She never looked at me.
 
#67 ·
Anthony, I'm sorry for your pain. A dog should bring joy, not stress. Management of Kira must be physically and mentally exhausting.

Your kids don't like her, your kids friends are in danger. It will just be a matter of time till word gets out and your daughter's friends will not be allowed in your house. They will not only resent Kira more, but will resent you.

You really put forward an excellent effort to train and manage her. This problem is too big for you and your family for where you are at right now. From the expert opinions on this board it appears that fixing her will not happen.

Call your breeder and hopefully they can help you rehome her.
 
#72 ·
Kira's been fine with the kids. They can do anything with her.
However, only recently did I notice a change in her behavior towards my 8 yr old.
She acted as referee as I mentioned in another thread. The kids were laughing in another part of the room, and Kira jumped up and got in between them.
She was "huffy-puffy".
Never saw this towards my daughter.


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#73 ·
Anthony, I'm going to be absolutely honest with you.

IT IS YOU! YOU are the problem.

That staged video is the proof that your obsession in picking that dog apart is how Kia is turned more and more into the type of dog everyone suspects her to be.

You have her on the Sofa with you. The situation is tense, because you all know what is going to happen and expect it to happen before she is doing anything.

Get a professional involved. Get a behaviorist. Join a Schutzhund Club. LEARN how to truly control your dog and her aggression!
 
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#74 ·
Anthony.. I know you love Kira, and I personally don't think you need to re-home her. Take a deep breath, and get off of the forum so you can deal with her issues properly instead of coming online to argue and feel bad about them.

Many people here are very, very hard on you. You need to understand that you are not the only one with a dog that has issues. There are people on this board that have worse issues than you have with Kira. Personally, I think you will be find with a reputable behaviorist/trainer and management skills. Put Kira in another room when you have company, she won't die and wither away being isolated for a couple hours a day.

Take my advice and take a long break from the forum here. I don't think many members here are helping much anymore, and the responses in this thread are leaving you feeling guilty, like a failure, and like you have an insane aggressive man-eating dogbeast.

Stop posting on the forum and get advice from a qualified person that can help you manage Kira's problems. I agree with Carmen when she says this is Kira's base temperament - you need to couple training with management. Avoid bad situations, avoid stress. That doesn't make Kira a horrible dog that needs to be rehomed. Rehoming won't solve her issues, not will it make you feel any better.

I feel so bad for you, honestly. I think a lot of people here need to be a bit easier on you, a bit more respectful of others. I can tell just replying to people's answers is overwhelming you and making you doubt yourself and Kira. You need to know when to step back and say, "Okay, enough with the back and forth online with people who don't know my personal life with Kira and time to get help and work hard."
 
#80 ·
Wow, i have to agree with the person who told you to take a break from this forum. It is only adding to your stress level. I have a 9.5 month old puppy that has never shown any agression towards anyone and just reading some of the posts on this forum i have become nervous that his behavior may suddenly change. Seriously, it is creating stress in me. This board is not providing you with any benefit at this point and it is only adding to your stress level.

You have to make a decision. It is a really tough decision and no one can make that decision for you. The sooner you make a decision the better it is for Kira. She sounds like a great dog, you sound like a great owner. I don't think that anyone on this board can tell you what to do.
 
#86 ·
This is in response to Jane:

I also agree. I was talking about keeping the doors shut in the house (as he's mentioned), telling their friends to respect Kira's space, stuff like that. NOT training or helping him out with her. I totally get what you're saying, even regarding your husband, heh.

But...if Anthony says they're not interested, it will be harder and easier for him. Easier, because if he and his wife are the only ones training and handling Kira, she won't get any mixed signals or anything. But harder, because they won't reinforce rules that Anthony sets.

That's more about what I meant.
 
#87 ·
OK here's my take. Anthony I'm sort of in the same situation as you. Now, it's not as bad because I don't have kids yet, but my husband is not involved with my dogs. We have people that come and go (his friends, my family, acquaintances that drop in...and sometimes these people have kids).

The first thing is if your family is apathetic towards the dog then you need to accept that and move on. IMO there is nothing wrong with that. You can't force people to like a dog or want to be involved. Heck sometimes it's better this way because my husband isn't trying to "train" my dogs and undoing everything I've already done! It sounds like Kira is YOUR dog.

You say you are not against crated but don't want her to live in a crate or kennel. Why? How has she earned the right to be free in the house, lying on that nice leather sofa sounding off at people? In my house a dog earns his freedom foot by foot. Puppies start out in crates/kennels/pens with structured and managed free time (yard time, playing with other dogs time, learning to be free in the house and not destroy it time, focused training time...). Right now it seems like Kira has done nothing to prove she has earned any freedom in your house and has in fact demonstrated several times that she should *not* have this freedom at this age. To me the answer is simple. If your family wants nothing to do with her and you can't be around 24/7 to police her behavior then keep her confined. If my husband wants to have people over or friends are coming over with kids and I'm not around, I have him crate my dogs even though they have proven to be OK with people and kids. Growing up with family and friends that do not care for dogs I just assume that everyone hates my dogs so I put them away (crate in the basement or van, or put out in the yard if it's nice) when I can't be there to supervise.
 
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