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I need Help ASAP

17K views 155 replies 27 participants last post by  debbiebrown 
#1 ·
My wife and myself are at our wits end. This forum is one of our last hopes for our GSD. I will keep things brief but as informational as possible.
My house consists of 4 dogs.
1 Chocolate lab- lazy and older male. 100 lbs. owned since puppy.
2. GSD- owned 1 year, was a rescue. is probably close to 3 yrs old. Female
3. yorkie- 6 lbs male.
4. Golden retriever brown- female, less than a year old. 45 lbs probably.

These dogs have been together for at least a year and have had no issues, other than typical dog issues, fighting over a bone or a toy. Nothing major.
all the dogs play together, romp and run through the house.

One night about 3:30am the retriever walked down the hallway and the GSD just flat attacked her. We burst out of the bedroom split them up. The retriever ran and hid, the GSD was just angry and we separated them for the rest of the night until later in the morning. When they got back together they played and were fine the entire day. That evening the retriever was in the kitchen eating. The GSD was in another room, she saw my wife walk out of the kitchen and she charged in and attacked the retriever again... same deal broke them up, retriever ran and hid. the retriever isnt even trying to be dominant. She immediately submits.
Other facts- The GSD loves our yorkie, she even helps feed him out of her own food bowl.
She does not get aggressive over toys. She doesnt really play with them.
When she goes out to pee she will find where the retriever pee'd and cover it with her own.
She does not like the retriever to come inside from being outside before she does. If i open the door they come running but the GSD will always charge her and make sure she doesnt get to the door first.
We spoke with a GSD specific trainer, he does things for the police etc. He said it was a female vs female dominance thing, he suggested the GSD would have to find a new home with no female dogs. FFW we found a home, husband wife, 2 kids, 1 male yorkie. Figured it would be great. 15 acres to run on etc. The GSD has been there a few days everything has been fine. We get a call today that the GSD nearly killed their yorkie after they walked out of the house. They returned the dog to us, saying otherwise she was a great dog. So now it is not a female vs female thing.
We dont know what to do aside from putting her in a home where she is the only dog is putting her to sleep the only solution?
 
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#111 · (Edited)
IMO, if this is just a case of resource guarding, then yes you could fix this. However, you need to get a good trainer involved! You don't need to go every week as money seems to be an issue but you do need to go. I typically go every 3 weeks (well...before Jax got hurt and had surgery).

You do need to stop projecting human actions and feelings onto the dogs. It's highly unlikely that Nala "deliberately waited" for you to leave the room. It's more likely that you missed the signals she was sending out. In fact, you leaving the room may have been the trigger and it has nothing to do with food if, say, the GR was between the door and Nala. You also need to keep in mind that it takes a couple of weeks for the stress hormones to leave their bodies after a fight. so the second fight may have just been because of the stress hormones keeping Nala in high gear. We were having fights between our GSD and youngest Boxer constantly but after the GSD and I went to see family for a couple of weeks, something reset in the Boxers brain and we haven't had one since May.

But you need a trainer to come in and evaluate the dogs. This could be SSA, resource guarding or something else. If you want to keep Nala, you need a professional to eval what is going on between these dogs.
 
#112 ·
The likely reason for the fighting now when it hasn't been an issue before is the age of the GR. She no longer gets a 'puppy pass' from the GSD. She may also be an instigator and you're missing the signals. Let me give you a 'for instance'. We have an older (fixed) female, and a now 2 year old (fixed) female pug. All was well until Grim (GSD) came home as an 11 week old pup. The older female ignored him or 'warned' him to stay away from her. The Pug considers him 'hers'. They've gotten into some nasty sounding 'scuffles' over him and some of his 'coveted' toys. Although my pug has always been a toy thief (the older dog doesn't care about toys at all), it's now an issue because the 'puppy pass' is gone. It has taken careful management of toys, space, and Grim to manage this. They get along like 2 peas in a pod, until they don't. They are best buddies minutes after a scuffle, too. It's an odd situation, but there it is. I believe that the main thing triggering the fights that weren't there for the first year is the pug is no longer a puppy in the older dogs' eyes. Her puppy pass is gone.

Grim's coveted toys have to be put away when he's not playing with them, and the older dog is finally over her 'warning' Grim all the time...so the pug doesn't have to be in 'protective mode' over "her" puppy.
 
#113 ·
The 'puppy pass' I think hits it on the head.
We finally have some sunshine out today so i am going to take nala up on our hill to play some.
we got a basket muzzle in hopes we could bring them together and if a fight broke out there would be no damage and we could correct it. But it just totally stressed Nala out more (was rubbing that bite mark near her eye) and we didnt think stressing her would help much.
I work with nala and she is a quick learning, I need a way to get her to 'instant focus' if that makes sense. She minds me well unless there is a distraction, like a cat or something. she knows sit, shake, lay down, if she is in the kitchen and I say 'out' and point all the dogs know to leave. If I am at the top of the stairs and Nala tries to come up I say "no" and point and she lays down. She learns fast I just dont know were to start on really driving things home I guess. Ill check around this site later today and see what I can learn. She loves praise so I think that will be best. She does well with routines and really seeks to please us.
I think my wife is okay with finding Bella a new home as long as we can mend the trust issue and ensure Tink (our yorkie) would be safe. How can we start building that trust again?
 
#114 ·
Do not feed together. That's a trigger.
Feed separately IN CRATES. Give them plenty of crate time in between exercising.

DO NOT Leave them alone together.
If you see the slightest indication - this will require you to be extremely vigilant and know dog body language - that one is going to attack, intervene before it starts with a "HEYYY!!! That's ENOUGH!!!"

Do not leave toys out that can be guarded.
 
#117 ·
in the evening 4 bowls go down, sometimes Nala and sebastian wait till later at night to eat, Bella is usually a good eater. Nala usually takes food out of her bowl and gives it to tink.
They have all always eaten in the kitchen together. Food isnt always available. Sebastian is the only one who has ever been food aggressive, but he never fights just tries to act really mean and hog the food.
Nala acts like she could care less most of the time. Almost like she would rather eat ever other day or something.
 
#118 ·
Please refresh my memory. I am running on the idea that the GR is 9-10 months old? That screams SSA moreso than puppy pass. The puppy pass usually disappears at 4.5-5 months old. And then it is not a bloody scrimmage. it is usually a snarl and maybe something that sounds terrible but no blood whatsoever. The behavior of the puppy on the receiving end, might be what you described.

Frankly, I think that so long as you have two bitches in your home, you are going to have a heightened/charged atmostphere. Some bitches, once there is blood, look for any opportunity to get to the other bitch. Some bitches can go several months, and then someone walks too close to the other, brushes them the wrong way and someone punishes, someone retaliates, and it is on. Sometimes when a dog is in attack mode, and are separated, they will redirect that aggression on the person separating, or on whatever walks by. Living with two females that do not get along is not for most pet owners.

My vet has Jack Russels, and every so often he has to come in and get antibiotics, etc, when they get into it. Someone who has one of my boys, has two bitch littermates, and their dam; every so often they tussel, and every joins in. A tiny dog would not have a prayer in that scenario.

I know this is not what you want to hear. But if the bitch pup goes away, and you give your girl a few WEEKS to get normal again, you can probably have the same harmony you had in your home before this issue cropped up. If the bitch pup stays, it is probably just a matter of time, regardless to how many behaviorists, trainers, NILIF, etc. that you try.

Every time you bring a bitch into a home with another bitch, there is a possibility that they will have to be totally separated down the line. Some breeds are worse for SSA. They say that dogs fight for breeding rights, bitches fight for breathing rights. Personally, I think you can generally get two dogs to live together. Some people will even give the advice to sit back and let them figure it out. Don't do that with bitches, because you might be burying one and having to put the other down.
 
#121 ·
You have a pack going on. Free-feeding a pack of dogs does set you up for some discussions between the dogs. Sometimes you will have an over-weight dog because he eats more than he should. And sometimes you have a dog that stops eating and it really isn't noticed very quick because others are picking up the slack.

If you have a pack, then you really should put the food down, and pick it up in 5-15minutes. You can feed dogs together with separate bowls if there have been no problems, But for many of us with multiple dogs, it just makes more sense to feed everyone in their crates. High value treats go in the crates also.

I think it is interesting that Bella, who likes the Kongs, is the youngster who had some of the trouble. You have one dog who is borderline resource guarding when it comes to her kong, Another who acts mean when others get to near his food, and a little one that barks at every one when he comes in. And then some SSA. That is a lot going on. I think that to have a pack work you really need to be a certain kind of leader, and your leadership and the leadership of the humans in this pack has to be improved so that some of these behaviors, which you seem pretty ok with go away.
 
#128 ·
I wasn't clear. When the puppy 'pass' stopped appeared to be the time when the SSA started. I do 100% believe it's SSA in this case. (Probably also in my house, too) When the other female views that female as being 'mature', the problems begin. Even if they weren't there before. I'm with Selzer, I don't think this is something that's going to be solved (ie, it doesn't happen again) by training or a behaviorist. I think it's going to take SUPER tight management, knowing how to read your dog and it STILL has a decent chance of happening again. Putting 2 bitches together is always going to be a chance at having this happen. We 'manage' because it's an atypical case and I don't know how long the old girl will be with us. No way I'd do this for many, many years!
 
#129 ·
My dog Kira, always brings out the worst in other dogs. I never could figure why, until I caught her doing this little sneaky snarl with her upper lip.

There was an incident where I was walking with Kira and we came across a GSD that she used to play with as a puppy. Both dogs were leashed, and myself and the owner were chatting. At one point, the other GSD walked over to Kira and licked her mouth. A split second later the other dog attacked Kira

What could have gone wrong?
According to other owner, he saw Kira " flick her lip"
Could Kira have instigated the incident? I believe she did.

This could be what's going on with you GR.


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App
 
#130 ·
ok...the blood work all came back fine with Nala according to the vet. Nothing physical seems to be going on. We have been keeping the dogs all separate to let things calm down for a little while. Today I started to reintegrate Nala with the other dogs to see what she would do. She paid no attention to my Lab which is no surprise, he's the biggest and has been with us the longest, but now she is growling at my yorkie just like the GR. She didn't attack him but would have if I wasn't there to stop her. What is up with all of this?
 
#132 ·
Instead of being a bystander to all this, take an active role.

If you can't afford a trainer, implement Mind Games. Keep them separated.

Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong

It is apparent there's too much stress and tension at this time. Crate/rotate (GSD is never out at the same time the other dogs are).

I forget if you utilize crates, but if not, now is the time to start.

Pit Bull Rescue Central Although written for pit bulls, it can be used on any breed, and we've had issues here with non-pit bull dogs, any breed, really, can be aggressive to other dogs.

If you start doing this and Mind Games (as in "the dog MINDS") then your dogs may start seeing you as a leader and stop challenging each other so much.

Taking leadership of all the dogs goes a long way in reducing stress and fights. We live in a multiple dog pack and don't see as many fights when someone is controlling the atmosphere.
 
#133 ·
That is the problem. We can't afford a trainer. My husband just had open heart surgery not too long ago and he has been unable to work, so money is tight right now. We do have one large crate that we use in the house. I have been rotating the GSD in that and in the basement (which is fully heated, the same size as the upstairs of the house, and she has her own couch and toys down there. She seems to be a lot more calm when she is in the basement now versus being upstairs with the other dogs.

I will check out Mind Games. We have to this stuff under control.
 
#135 ·
With the risk of hiring a crap trainer so very high, some of these things can be done at home and can be implemented on a daily basis, they won't hurt the dog or situation (like a crap trainer would) and just may help :thumbup:
 
#136 ·
It's been a few days since we have posted any updates on the status of our GSD situation. We have been working with our vet and an animal behaviorist about our situation. The behaviorist is suggesting that we put our GSD on Prozac temporarily, so that we are able to work with the dogs together easier. The behaviorist says that the GR submission to the GSD is out of fear and that fear is making the GSD more aggressive or feeding her aggression. They are suggesting that we keep the GSD on the Prozac for about a week before putting the two dogs back together. Then they are suggesting that we leash both of the dogs and slowly put them back together, not allowing the GSD to be aggressive or the GR to be fearful of the GSD. They say that we need to walk them together (one person to each dog) with a close leash at first and then letting the leash out more and more until they can be around each other without issues. This seems like the best plan that we have been able to come up with so far, any thoughts? Suggestions?
 
#138 ·
No. Prozac takes a good 30 days to kick in as it's an SSRI, and you won't see any results in one week!

Also - Prozac can make some dogs more aggressive.

Geesh. This is your vet suggesting this??

I'd do the other. Leash and separate at all times. Leash at ALL times.
Take control of the situation instead of being a bystander.
 
#139 ·
Vet and Behaviorist saying PROZAC???? Sorry - that is a crock.....this is NOT an uncommon problem......drugs are a band aid and will not change the personality of the dogs....you either rehome one (and it is not fair for the GSD to have to go if she was there first IMO) or rotate forever and be diligent that there are no fights.....you are putting everyone - dogs and people - at risk trying to make them be friends.....

Won't happen.

Lee
 
#140 ·
Agreed with the others. Prozac takes about 30 days to take effect.

I will say, however, that I have had success in using supplements (Springtime Inc's Stress Free Complex) for example taking the edge off just enough that the dog is better able to focus and learn but is NOT drugged. This however was with a young fear aggressive (toward dogs and people) female and she was on the supplements for months while we worked on counter conditioning. She is since off them but is not cured but is better in the house.

This is in no way advice directly on your situation as I have not the dogs interact and I do agree with others that same sex aggression would be very difficult to counter condition and will take LOTS of management and MONTHS and MONTHS of work.

Then they are suggesting that we leash both of the dogs and slowly put them back together, not allowing the GSD to be aggressive or the GR to be fearful of the GSD. They say that we need to walk them together (one person to each dog) with a close leash at first and then letting the leash out more and more until they can be around each other without issues. This seems like the best plan that we have been able to come up with so far, any thoughts? Suggestions?
How does the behaviorist suggest you react if the GSD is aggressive? What does not letting her be aggressive mean?

While walking them together (with plenty of distance) and just having them be near each other and calm (opposite sides of the room, leashed and distracted by a bone or doing obedience) is the correct way to go about counter conditioning, you need to have a very real understanding of body language so you can redirect stares and prevent challenges and reward the right state of mind. Also, again, keep in mind that this is several months of work before they will likely get to be close to each other and not something that will happen over night.
 
#141 ·
And how do you disallow the GR not to be fearful???

:hammer: You shall not cringe, you shall not cringe!!!

If you :dogsledding: the :dancingtree: out of them, every day, maybe they will be too tired to :poke:each other.

The problem is most of us will be :surrender: long before our :puppy::puppy::puppy: are.
 
#142 ·
Had another 'attack' tonight. Everything seemed to be going okay.
We noticed Bela has been very 'afraid' of Nala lately. She wont come in the house if Nala is at the door etc. My wife noticed Bela crying under the kitchen table and wouldnt come out she said Nala acted like she had her trapped. This is again what happened, my daughter was eating dinner at the table, bela under it, nala/bela someone growled at the other and Nala got ahold of her leg. it wasnt terrible attack or anything we were able to split them up.
Nala was shaking after we broke them up and just acted like she had an adrenaline dump. My wife would describe Nala's behavior as 'stalking.'
We have been on top of any dominance stuff.
My daughter is only 6 so she isnt the greatest witness. but she says Bela trying to lick her fingers while she was eating just before the fight... Take that info with a grain of salt...
 
#149 ·
Why are you allowing these dogs to be in the same room together? We are going through a very similar situation. We have the dogs completely separated. With crates and baby gates, we prevent them from ever coming in contact with one another. We are working with a trainer who comes to our home. Unless we are 100 percent sure the dogs can safely be together, they will remain separated. You are putting your 6 year old's safety at risk. Have you considered what might happen if your daughter gets caught between two fighting dogs?
 
#143 ·
seriously, rehome the puppy- how much longer are you going to let this go on? contact a rescue to take the younger dog and find her a good home. do you want to wait until your older dog KILLS your younger dog? rehome the younger dog NOW ... its not dominance stuff- its called the older female doesnt like the younger female and you have same sex aggression... stop allowing your older dog to bully your younger dog too- that is cruel and unfair to your younger dog- you should not be allowing the older dog to bully the younger dog to the point the younger dog wont come in the house... you are setting both dogs up to fail and its not their fault.
 
#144 ·
Yep.
One of these days very soon you're going to have a bad disaster.
People have given you 15 pages of advice, primarily, rehome the puppy. Before she's killed, maimed, one of you (or your kids) gets maimed, and before her head's so messed up she'll never be right :(
 
#145 ·
We have not rehomed any dog because we have been advised by our vet and a behaviorist not to. We are asking for other suggestions, please don't be rude...The behaviorist states that it isn't cut and dry female aggression based on the vet's findings and what we have told him. I mean if you have children who are having fights, you don't just find one of them another home. I am sorry, but all of these dogs are like my children and I want to get to the bottom of this. I understand that rehoming is an option, but it should be a last resort.
 
#147 ·
I see no rudeness, only members who are taking time out of their busy lives to offer you help and advice.
I guess you don't like the advice you've been given here, but asking again and again will only get you the same replies.
It is your choice to continue with this, but if you keep updating with reports of fights, I'm afraid the advice you get here will be exactly the same.

PS-- as long as you think of them as children and equate them with kids instead of recognizing they are animals, ones that can hurt each other or your child-- then you won't be able to fix your problem.
 
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