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Gun owner, my dog, scary situation

12K views 75 replies 34 participants last post by  Kyleigh 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
First, I take full responsibility for not 100% controlling my dog in this situation. My fault, my blame, and I will not let it happen again.

We were skijoring in a remote area (unlikely to see anyone), with four dogs. I had my husky hooked to me, the malinois was in harness but she and my shepherd were free running, my partner was well behind with his older dog.

We were moving at a pretty good clip, like 15 mph. I was just kind of enjoying the moment. There was a walker on the trail ahead of us but I didn't pay much attention. We pass people on trails ALL the time in busier areas with neutral behavior from all parties. As we approached, my malinois ran ahead a bit and barked at the guy a few times. I told her to come, and she immediately came and we went on by. I didn't think much of it.

We got back to the parking lot and changed our skis out to head out on the more narrow trails for some slower ski touring. All the dogs were relaxed. The guy we passed came down the trail. An older guy.

I said hello, he said "your dog scared the :poop: out of me".

I said, "I am so sorry, I called her right away, I didn't expect her to bark like that."

He said, "well, you're not the only one with a weapon out here," unzipped his jacket, and started to pull out a large revolver he had strapped to his chest.

I was somewhat in shock. He was handling the gun. My dogs were 100% neutral- and playing with each other and there was absolutely no threat or inference of a threat from me (female, young, smaller).

He said, "I was a second away from shooting your dog".

This was interesting since my dog maybe barked three times and as we ran by. The entire encounter took about three seconds or less.

I said, "she was barking, I know she shouldn't do that, and I don't let her bark at people, but she was a bit startled."

He said that she was showing her "fangs". That he knew dogs, that he had 50 stitches in his head from a dog, and 8 dogs at home, and that he knew she was serious. I understood he was afraid of dogs. I got all that. I honestly do have the dogs I have in part for deterrence of (human male) attackers. That said, they are not PPD and I don't need that.

BUT BUT BUT, my goal with all my dogs is neutrality and 100% recall. Obviously, I dropped the ball here and it is MY fault my dog barked at the guy. Brief it may have been, reactive it may have been and so on, I am not making excuses.

What I take away from this is:

1. My dog needs more neutrality and OB training, we are not as far along as I had thought, despite numerous neutral encounters on more busy trails every day.

2. If I see someone on the trail ahead, I need to "heel" my malinois and/or (until she is 100% with her OB) leash her until we are past the person. Even though she rarely reacts, she needs to understand that I make the decisions.

3. Keep practicing the recall. Under extreme distractions.

4. I need to expect that people are carrying concealed, especially in rural areas. It is legal in this state.

5. My "small" (55 lb) dog is scary even though I don't see her that way very easily because she is so sweet with her family. Even more so because of the way she looks to people, I need 100% control over this dog.

6. Huge wake up call. I love this dog and I need to not let her make her own decisions in these situations. I will leash for her until her OB is solid and consistent.

So, I totally blame myself. Gave my girl a lot of loving last night, and was very happy I'd worked with her so much on recall that when I called her she came immediately. Kicked myself for not calling her to a heel before we passed the guy many times already.

I'm still a bit in shock by the guy pulling a gun on me well after the barking incident and when my dogs were not acting remotely threatening. Took me a long time to settle down last night.

It was like my worst nightmare. The last thing I want is my dog making me LESS safe than more safe.

Just a warning to us all that we can never be too careful or have too much control over our dogs. With some dogs, you can NEVER be complacent. Time for me to do some really consistent training with this. I could have avoided this whole thing if I had just called her in when I first noticed the walker on the trail in front of us.

I'm still reeling a bit. Nothing like this has ever happened to me before.
 
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#38 ·
This is hilarious:

As if being able to pull the trigger on a handgun is MANLY. I'm fat, female, and 52 and I can pull a trigger just fine. And since I'm not all worried about looking macho, my plain old shotgun would easily take out any idiot brandishing a pistol. Guns aren't for posing or waving around.
Had it been me I'd have peed my pants LOL ... But, I'm Canadian, and we don't see that many guns! LOL (Ha, I think the only time I've seen a gun is on a cop ... hmmm ... yup, pretty sure that's it!)

I don't know your gun laws, everyone else seems to know them - which is good! But I don't think you or your dogs did anything wrong.

My friend and I walk our dogs all the time in the woods / hills, etc. and they are off leash. Plenty of times they have barked to "alert" us that someone is there. We always call them back (just like you did!) and they came (just like your's did). We'll put them in a sit / stay beside us and then we have a laugh about how our dogs "startled" them. 99% of the time we get major compliments on how well trained our dogs are.

AND ... we've even had comments like: well, out here, you'd want a dog to be on the look out for you ...

I think you just ran into an idiot, and I'm happy that you are able to post about it, and that nothing happened to you and your dogs.
 
#39 ·
We got back to the parking lot and changed our skis out to head out on the more narrow trails for some slower ski touring. All the dogs were relaxed. The guy we passed came down the trail. An older guy.

I said hello, he said "your dog scared the :poop: out of me".

I said, "I am so sorry, I called her right away, I didn't expect her to bark like that."

He said, "well, you're not the only one with a weapon out here," unzipped his jacket, and started to pull out a large revolver he had strapped to his chest.

I was somewhat in shock. He was handling the gun. My dogs were 100% neutral- and playing with each other and there was absolutely no threat or inference of a threat from me (female, young, smaller).

He said, "I was a second away from shooting your dog".

.
Ok - this is strictly the opinion of an 'older' person. I can see my husband doing the same thing to the OP if he was charged by a dog and startled. I don't know the extent of 'handling' the gun the guy in this thread did. My husband would not have taken out his pistol, and I doubt he would have even shown it to the OP. There isn't the need to.

However, my husband (being an older man, and father) would have gone to the OP and scolded her for allowing the dog to charge strangers. He would have made the point that people carry weapons and the situation could have turned out very bad for her dog.

One time he stopped and changed the tire for a car full of young girls late one night. He scolded them the entire time he was doing it. He also made the driver call her parents and let them know what was happening. They showed up before he was finished.

If the guy pulled out his weapon, actually unholstered it, and the OP felt threatened, then he took it too far. I agree. I would create a report.
 
#40 ·
Ok - this is strictly the opinion of an 'older' person. I can see my husband doing the same thing to the OP if he was charged by a dog and startled. I don't know the extent of 'handling' the gun the guy in this thread did. My husband would not have taken out his pistol, and I doubt he would have even shown it to the OP. There isn't the need to.

However, my husband (being an older man, and father) would have gone to the OP and scolded her for allowing the dog to charge strangers. He would have made the point that people carry weapons and the situation could have turned out very bad for her dog.

One time he stopped and changed the tire for a car full of young girls late one night. He scolded them the entire time he was doing it. He also made the driver call her parents and let them know what was happening. They showed up before he was finished.

If the guy pulled out his weapon, actually unholstered it, and the OP felt threatened, then he took it too far. I agree. I would create a report.
I am curious as to why is it ok for the OP to feel threatened because the guy showed a gun, and yet most folks here don't seem to feel that the guy had a right to feel equally threatened by a large charging barking dog? Just curious?
 
#42 ·
Probably because this is a dog forum, not a gun forum
Probably!

I would certainly feel much more threatened if someone waved / showed a gun at me, than if a dog was charging me. WHY? I'm more experienced around dogs than guns, or people with guns, or even crazy people with guns LOL

As for a dog running towards me if I was in the middle of nowhere? I'd simply stop walking - no use in giving the dog a reason to chase me. Likely, I'd hear someone call out for their dog (as the OP did). If it didn't go back, I still wouldn't move. I'd wait for the owner to come over.

I'm sure it's happened, but the odds of a dog out walking with it's owner running up and charging and barking and then flat out attacking me? I'd go with those odds than a person waving a gun at me.

But, that's just me!
 
#52 ·
Probably!

I would certainly feel much more threatened if someone waved / showed a gun at me, than if a dog was charging me. WHY? I'm more experienced around dogs than guns, or people with guns, or even crazy people with guns LOL

As for a dog running towards me if I was in the middle of nowhere? I'd simply stop walking - no use in giving the dog a reason to chase me. Likely, I'd hear someone call out for their dog (as the OP did). If it didn't go back, I still wouldn't move. I'd wait for the owner to come over.

I'm sure it's happened, but the odds of a dog out walking with it's owner running up and charging and barking and then flat out attacking me? I'd go with those odds than a person waving a gun at me.

But, that's just me!

You must live in a very interesting neighborhood if you are that much more likely to have a gun waved at you than have a dog come barking at you! WOW!

I have had a number of dogs come running to me barking but NEVER anyone waving a gun at me! (Thankfully!)
 
#44 · (Edited)
I read page one and not all the posts in between.

Doesn't sound like he drew it at you, so I'm not sure why you were shaken up other than the fact that your dog could have been shot? I had a friend recently come over to my house, he has a concealed weapons permit. I didn't know, didn't ask, didn't bother me. We started talking guns and he pulled his from his chest holster to show me without warning(I had no idea he carried or owned it at the time); nothing wrong with having a gun around as long as it's not pointed at me! ;)

I may wrongly assume in this situation that it is not an area where dogs are supposed to be off leash? Either way really, a dog charging a man barking gives way for him to interpret it as he wants.

He could have easily told you he was carrying and let that be that, in most places while it is frowned upon, it is legal to disclose and show? a concealed weapon that you're legally carrying. Perhaps he hoped that showing you would make you realize how close you were. Either way he was in no wrong letting you know he had it.

I am taking a CCW class this winter and I'll be getting my permit when I turn 21. I would certainly use it in the same case if a dog was running at me in what I interpreted as aggressive had the dog not responded to a recall. Likely, that's all that saved your mal in this case.

Not sure why the opinion is that this man shouldn't own/carry a gun, sounds like it could have almost "saved" him.
 
#46 ·
SOOO ... I'm not trying to start a war here, but I'm confused ...

Some people on here get absolutely livid that a police officer shoots a dog that is charging them ... but most people on this thread are agreeing that they "might" shoot the dog if it charged them ...

What's the difference? A charging dog is still a charging dog ...

Or is the difference in the people who get mad at the police officer, not the same people who would "shoot" the charging dog?
 
#50 ·
I don't think they are the same people. I would not shoot a dog. I don't think police should shoot dogs unless they are actually in danger either. There are other ways to fend off a charging dog - pepper spray for instance.
 
#47 ·
People just do weird things in the mountains. I have seen just plain weirdness on so many occassions during camping and hiking excursions that it can't be dismissed. People do stuff that they wouldn't do in town, referring to the brandishing of a gun. Showing a gun is plain illegal in the manor that guy did. Your dog sounds pretty reasonable if it barks but comes when you call it.
 
#49 ·
Legally it was brandishing and depending up the state and the location within the state (state/local/national park, school area, etc) the fines (and possibly even jail time) vary.

This even applies in open carry states. Disclosing a weapon with the intent to intimidate when one is not under imminent threat is illegal as well as grossly irresponsible and foolish.
 
#70 ·
I'm sorry, did the OP say that he threatened anywhere? I did not read his dialogue the way so many people here are taking it. :confused:

I felt like he just let her know in too open of a way that he was going to shoot the dog had it not turned around so she should really be careful of her dog's actions... That's not a threat at all, just letting her know for her dog's sake.
 
#54 ·
No, you misunderstood my sentence (Or I wasn't clear enough)

What I meant was this: Sure there have been people attacked by dogs ... but the odds of being out on a walk and a dog just randomly coming up and flat out attacking ??? REALLY? Sure, the dog charges, hackles are up, barks.

For the experienced dog owners, you know what to do. YOU STOP ...

I live in Canada ... people don't carry guns around here (Ok, the criminals do, but they sure as heck aren't about to advertise it). I've been charged, barked at, and yes, had a dog circle me. I never got bit, I never got attacked.

I had to use my knowledge, experience with dogs to read the dog - and wait for the owner to arrive.

That's why I said I'd go with the odds of having a dog ATTACK (not charge / bark) than someone waving a gun at me (because I wouldn't see that in my neighbourhood). The odds of both incidences are super low.
 
#56 ·
Glad you are okay, that was a scary situation! Maybe you should carry when you are out there in secluded areas. My first thought is that your dog was no match for that crazy man should the need have arose (and not saying your dog should have had to protect you). People I know who carry concealed, well their guns stay concealed. No need to flash them. He has a screw loose.
 
#57 ·
The guy we passed came down the trail. An older guy.

I said hello, he said "your dog scared the :poop: out of me".

I said, "I am so sorry, I called her right away, I didn't expect her to bark like that."

He said, "well, you're not the only one with a weapon out here," unzipped his jacket, and started to pull out a large revolver he had strapped to his chest.

I was somewhat in shock. He was handling the gun. My dogs were 100% neutral- and playing with each other and there was absolutely no threat or inference of a threat from me (female, young, smaller).

He said, "I was a second away from shooting your dog".
Maybe he wasn't making a threat with the gun? He didn't point it at anyone (not the OP and not the dog). Maybe he showed it to the OP as a way to show how badly it could have ended. I see his behavior as saying, "Hey, your dog scared me and you should be aware that there are people out here that are armed. I was that close to shooting your dog. Maybe you shouldn't let your dog run up and bark at people out here".

We have had a couple of incidents here in my area where dogs have been shot for just this type of behavior.
Sheilah
 
#58 ·
It's possible that's what he thought he was doing, but what he did was illegal, regardless, and if he went to any half-way decent CHL class that point should have been hammered home repeatedly. When you carry concealed, the only time anyone should know you have a gun is when you are drawing your gun to protect yourself or another. You don't talk about it, you don't show it. You certainly don't deliver a caution or warning with it in your hand because anyone with half a brain cell is going to think you intend it as a threat.
 
#59 ·
Interesting discussion. I readily admit my dog should not be barking at people and should be able to be called off immediately if she does so. Were I to do this whole thing over again, I would have called her as soon as I saw the walker. But she does not normally bark at people on trails (she will react more strongly to other dogs) and I was kind of in a skijor mindset. So, my fault for allowing my dog to startle the man.

That said, I, too have been charged and barked at by all number of dogs on the trails. Especially when skijoring (chase and prey drive kick in). 100% of the time, the dogs are not out to attack or hurt me or my dogs- in my experience. People, including myself, do not allow a dog that would actually attack and bite someone off leash on public-use trails.

Now, this area we were in when the incident happened is indeed "rural" and there is certainly a different vibe out there. We are much less likely to encounter anyone who shoots first and asks questions later in the city. People here are used to dogs- people are generally not afraid of dogs. Does this mean I should let my dog do her scary barking display at people around here? Certainly not, but this is a more urban area with less of a cowboy culture. The end of the roaders out in rural Alaska are not known for their sunny personalities.
 
#60 ·
Kyleigh- I agree with you- I would much rather be charged by a barking dog (happens weekly) than have a gun brandished at me (has never happened before). I think my odds are very good that a barking dog does not intend to kill me or even bite me (has never happened in now 16 plus years of encountering dogs on trails and roads daily)- while a gun just takes a pull on the trigger to cause deadly and un-reversible damage.


A dog that will actually bite a random person with intent to do serious harm- that is rare.


We do not have a "leash" law in town. We do have animal under voice control mandates and animal menace laws. Arguably, a barking dog is menacing. I asked animal control about this, they said that as long as the barking dog is near the owner and under voice control it is considered a service animal (doing its job) and is not breaking the law.

What do you think? Is is ever appropriate for a dog to bark at someone on public trails (off leash)? Does it depend on what the dog looks like? We all have shepherds on this forum and my GSD can look scary. But my malinois can look scarier. Certainly people think she looks scary even when she is not doing anything remotely aggressive- I think it's the black face and her very white teeth. I think that certainly plays a role in how a dog's actions are perceived.

Regardless, as I stated before, I am training for neutrality and 100% recall. A real solid recall takes care of almost any situation. My intention is to live and let live when I go running/skijoring/hiking. I don't want to bother anyone and I don't want them to bother me.

I do not feel the need for a gun- but I do have my dogs for deterrence. From both four footed and two-footed predators. But, like I said, my mali barking in this manner can make me less safe, not more safe, and I need to train and be proactive in a way so that doesn't happen again.
 
#62 ·
A dog that will actually bite a random person with intent to do serious harm- that is rare.

What do you think? Is is ever appropriate for a dog to bark at someone on public trails (off leash)? Does it depend on what the dog looks like?
Not every person you come across is going to know that a random bite is rare, though. Regardless of how much experience they might claim in the moment!

I don't think it is ever appropriate for a dog to randomly bark at anyone or anything while out in the community. And unless I have asked for the dog to bark, I would consider any barking to be random. I don't allow my German Shepherd Dog to do it. I don't allow my Australian Shepherd to do and I don't allow my Pug to do it.
Sheilah
 
#64 ·
If a dog charges at me (or at my dog) and is clearly seriously aggressive about it; then too bad what happens to him/her. Self defense and all that sort of stuff!

Where I grew up in the city - if you started a fight, then if you got the worst of it it, too bad - your fault!

And just a hint to you folks who think that a puffed up stance and a loud "BOO" is sufficient to protect you and your dog - please realize this for you and your dog's safety -
YOU JUST HAVE NOT MET THE RIGHT (WRONG?) DOG YET!

Not every dog out there will turn tail and run based on a "yell" from you!
 
#65 ·
As I have said, it is amazing that so many of us have made it to whatever age we are without carrying around lethal weapons. It's really funny that in many countries, that just isn't an option, and dogs are not eating people left and right.
 
#69 ·
This thread is starting to walk the line of becoming political. Please stay on topic of what was a scary situation for the OP and how they may avoid this situation or worse in the future.

ADMIN Lisa
 
#72 ·
This is late coming in but yeah that is an unnerving situation that apparently could have ended worse. Sounds like you have pretty good recall with your dog. Personally, more training could be in order, but it sounds like you have good base of training. My thought is that they still are dogs and they do have a mind of their own so no matter what amount of training there is still the possibility of them doing something like yours had done, when they are off leash and someone comes along unexpectedly. Personally I think the guy way over-reacted, but its hard to say without being there.

Also, to DJEtzel and Selzer, personally having recieved my CCW in Indiana and spending large amounts of time studying Indiana law and speakingwith the local sheriff many times. It has been my understanding that he should not have even said he would have shot the dog and by him showing and starting to pull the gun out in what at that time was a "neutral" situation is threatening in manner and he should be reported. Personally, having been charged by large dogs before it has never once been my initial reaction to want to shoot the dog, that said I have never been by myself when it has happened.
 
#73 ·
I think the OP has a good attitude. Telling you he was afraid of the dog and letting you know that a dog running loose in public that causes people to be afraid could get the dog shot isn't a threat. Neither is showing that he's carrying in a state where he is allowed to carry. My guess is the population there that doesn't carry is the minority. Kind of a jerk way to do it, but nothing unlawful about it.
 
#74 ·
Just a follow up.

I'm working on this very seriously. I will probably start layering in e-collar with the recall just so I can make it very quick and nearly 100% (very few things in life are 100%).

Today we trained with focused heeling around a bunch of cross country skiers in a field. I weaved around the skiers (not too close, or they would have thought me even stranger) "fuss-ed" her, downed her in motion, recalled her and then at the end rewarded with a game of tug with the leash. No problems. I had my other two dogs with me and worked them separately on some recall and trick stuff.

But, when we were coming up the single track trails to the larger trail, she did alert bark real quick at some snow bikers (from a ways back, we came around a corner and they surprised us). She was very close to me this time and on leash. I "fuss-ed" her and we went by (no further reaction or barking), but the (female) biker informed me that I have a "mean" dog.

I think that is the perception I am going to get, unfortunately. I know to some degree GSDs and malinois are supposed to "look" mean. So I battle that a bit, too. I think she's cute, but she does have a wolfish-police dog look to her. And she's grown a bit in the past month.

Honestly, I love this dog and I will leash her all the time if I have to, but, first my right shoulder is having some major pain/issues (old injury and dislocation) and I'll probably have to have surgery. It would be hugely helpful NOT to have to use a leash all the time. Which is why I'll probably be going with e-collar.

Second, the bark alert behavior is going to be tough to eliminate completely. I can call her back quickly BUT I'm not sure I can completely get rid of it. I've been much more diligent about calling her in whenever I see anyone on the trail- even if I think she won't react. But I can't do this pre-emptively 100% all the time because sometimes people appear suddenly. She is very good with the recall, but I think there is room for improvement in speed, as with any command.

I also will be working a whole lot on passing other dogs in harness because she will be my back-up dog for the world championships skijor races in March. A solid "on-by" past distractions will be helpful not just for skijoring, but for the trails as well. I have access to a lot of calm, neutral dogs with mushing friends, so as long as I can get them onboard with training the "maligator" we should be in good shape in a short amount of time.

I've never had a dog that is so easy to train, but I've also never had a dog that needed so much training just to go trail running. Give and take, I guess.

I'm going to try to take video of some of the training- it's hard because my hands are full with the dog so I need to set it up somewhere on tripod or similar, but I find it really useful to see what's going on with me and the dog, and it may be helpful for other people. No guarantees, though. Training takes priority over video.

Thanks for all the comments on this. It sure was a wake-up call for me, and probably a good thing it happened when she is just 17 months old and I have ample opportunity to get her in better habits for life. I'm also very glad it ended well.
 
#76 ·
I agree with this ... on these conditions ...

your dog isn't running at them full tilt scaring the crap out of them
the alert bark (or two) doesn't turn into a full scale barking fest
your dog comes back to you when called

Kyleigh sits in the back of my car, I have a divider so she can't get into the front. I have a four door car. I go through the Tim's drive thru every day on our way to our hike. She's in the back seat, the window is up, there is no way for her to even touch the person at the drive-thru window. She's never barked, whined or anything when I go to the cash.

Depending on who is at the window I get a variety of reactions:

does your dog want a tim bit?
ooh, is she ever cute
wow, nice looking dog, what is she mixed with

OR

is she going to bite me?
she looks really mean
I wouldn't want to try and break into your car
she's absolutely huge (60 pounds)

One of my friends has a chihuahua (nastiest dog I've ever met) ... her dog has almost bit every single tim horton's person that works the cash ... if my friend wasn't fast enough, the dog would have bit (whole other story, let's NOT go there ... they both drive me nuts) ... and yet EVERY SINGLE person that sees that dog thinks it's adorable and wants to pick it up!!!

I agree that you should keep up the training ... at 17 months, you've got lots of training to go, as I'm sure you know ... but don't beat yourself up about it!
 
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