Being "civil" and social aggression?

[PatchonGSD]

I'm looking for some clarification on these two things. The more I try to research it myself, the more I am confused.

1.) Is "social aggression" the same thing as being "civil", essentially?


2.) This is something that must be bred for (like good nerves), and cannot be taught, correct?

3.) Is it fair to say that a dog with "social aggression" is a dominant dog in personality, and one that would actually bite the flesh of a person vs a dog that will *only* bite a sleeve?

4.) Can anyone provide an example of a "civil" /"socially aggressive" dog?

[PatchonGSD]

[Jag]

I've read other threads about this before. What sites did you look at? I'm interested to know what people like Cliff, Carmen, Chris, and others that have Czech dogs (or partly Czech dogs) have to say on this as well. From what I've read, it's not something that can be trained, and PS line dogs all have it to varying degrees. I was told to expect Grim to be very civil.

[KristiM]

This is a tough topic and you are going to get a lot of different opinions, if anyone decides to post To me a dog that is civil is a dog willing to bite a person not just a sleeve. Havoc had a lot of civil agitation done as a young dog and was more than willing to bite the person, didn't care as much about equipment.

As an example of what I "think" social aggression is (and I could very well be way off) but I would say that Havoc also has a degree of "social aggression." He doesn't react to people he just seeks out eye contact with them, with this "ya wanna fight??" kind of look. If people don't get threatening he just moves on but stays aware of their presence. I very much discourage this because I have no need for it but I can see him being very confrontational if it was encourged. One time hiking there was a young woman with her boyfriend who was holding a chihuhua type dog. When she saw my two GSDs she was obviously quite irritated, she went across a dry creek and stood there with her hand on her hip and just GLARED at us. Havoc went to the edge of the creek GLARED back and did kind of a "huff" (which is his "I'm not screwing around" noise.) I easily called him off but he was very ready for a fight with her (so was I lol) If I didn't have him to control I would have probably asked WTH her problem was, I guess having a confrontational dog sometimes keeps me out of trouble lol.

[onyx'girl]

The Components of Strong Working Dog Temperament

From what I understand the term civil means a dog that is not equipment oriented....will bite regardless of not having a sleeve as target.

In real life, it goes the same way.....a civil dog carries some suspicion(it is genetic not trained)

[gagsd]

Civil dogs bite without equipment. This could be training.
I have seen quite a few Czech dogs that were sharp, quick to aggress, and would bite.

Social aggression is a whole nother ballgame.

[KristiM]

Originally Posted by onyx'girl

The Components of Strong Working Dog Temperament

Lol, the social aggression section just described Havoc. I guess I wasn't far off in my perception of "social aggression."

[PatchonGSD]

Originally Posted by Jag

I've read other threads about this before. What sites did you look at? I'm interested to know what people like Cliff, Carmen, Chris, and others that have Czech dogs (or partly Czech dogs) have to say on this as well. From what I've read, it's not something that can be trained, and PS line dogs all have it to varying degrees. I was told to expect Grim to be very civil.

I googled and looked about 1000 different sites. Breeder sites to the PDB and it was all different, lol.

Originally Posted by KristiM

This is a tough topic and you are going to get a lot of different opinions, if anyone decides to post To me a dog that is civil is a dog willing to bite a person not just a sleeve. Havoc had a lot of civil agitation done as a young dog and was more than willing to bite the person, didn't care as much about equipment.

As an example of what I "think" social aggression is (and I could very well be way off) but I would say that Havoc also has a degree of "social aggression." He doesn't react to people he just seeks out eye contact with them, with this "ya wanna fight??" kind of look. If people don't get threatening he just moves on but stays aware of their presence. I very much discourage this because I have no need for it but I can see him being very confrontational if it was encourged. One time hiking there was a young woman with her boyfriend who was holding a chihuhua type dog. When she saw my two GSDs she was obviously quite irritated, she went across a dry creek and stood there with her hand on her hip and just GLARED at us. Havoc went to the edge of the creek GLARED back and did kind of a "huff" (which is his "I'm not screwing around" noise.) I easily called him off but he was very ready for a fight with her (so was I lol) If I didn't have him to control I would have probably asked WTH her problem was, I guess having a confrontational dog sometimes keeps me out of trouble lol.

That visual totally made me laugh out loud! Thank you for your explanation.

Originally Posted by onyx'girl

The Components of Strong Working Dog Temperament

From what I understand the term civil means a dog that is not equipment oriented....will bite regardless of not having a sleeve as target.

In real life, it goes the same way.....a civil dog carries some suspicion(it is genetic not trained)

Thanks for the link! I didnt know there were so many "types" of aggression, lol. I thought "pissed off was just pissed off.

Originally Posted by gagsd

Civil dogs bite without equipment. This could be training.
I have seen quite a few Czech dogs that were sharp, quick to aggress, and would bite.

Social aggression is a whole nother ballgame.

Couldnt any dog bite without equipment? Or does it have to do with dogs being trained and worked in "prey drive" and not defense/aggression that keeps them from biting the flesh?

[pets4life]

yeah like the other poster said i don't think social aggression has anything to do with being civil.

you can have one without the other.

[KristiM]

For a lot of dogs it's about the sleeve. Some people like to do civil work to bring out more aggression and realism, some don't see the point. I know Odin was trained in pretty much all prey, I think he would (and did once) bite the helper but he would have definitely used bite inhibition. It was all a game to him and it was super fun for both of us. I think a dogs ability to be civil will depend on the temperament of the dog but also a lot depends on the training and foundation of a dog. I think you could take most sport dogs and have them bite "for real" in prey. When they are biting to defend themselves its a whole different ball game and if your dog isn't solid you would have some issues stemming from it. Not every dog can handle that type of pressure.

And I do agree social aggression is different than being civil. I think it would make sense to have a dog that can be civil and not socially aggressive but not so much the other way around.