Being "civil" and social aggression?

[KristiM]

Originally Posted by pets4life

kristi is your dog handler sensitive ?

NO. He is not. He has gotten better as he has aged, but especially as a puppy I would have injured him before a correction got through to him. He can be VERY responsive, and with most things where I have used positive reinforcement he is super quick and willing. But if he don't wanna he doesn't. I use the e collar now for our problem areas and it has been a very good tool for us.

[wolfstraum]

Originally Posted by KristiM

Hmm great, power, aggression and thin nerves lol. Ah well he is who he is. My first dog was so awesome that I figured I would get another one with some more umph.

I was not commenting on your dog's nerves as I have not seen him and know nothing about him - but on what MIGHT be coming forward and manifesting it self a bit differently from the Chuck pups I know.....

LOL He should certainly have a good bit of "umph"!!

Lee

[KristiM]

Originally Posted by wolfstraum

I was not commenting on your dog's nerves as I have not seen him and know nothing about him - but on what MIGHT be coming forward and manifesting it self a bit differently from the Chuck pups I know.....

LOL He should certainly have a good bit of "umph"!!

Lee

Lol no lack of "umph" in this dog!!!

Not to totally derail this thread but now I'm super curious what the other chuck pups you have known were like? When I spoke with Dan before I got havoc he said that axel was a super nice puppy, lots of drive, a little more on the serious side and showed quite a bit of territorial behaviour for his age. He did sound quite similar to what havoc is showing, havoc maybe being a bit more "sharp." It's hard I say what havoc truly exhibits since I quit schutzhund when he was 8 or 9 months old.

I'm kind of surprised chuck hasn't been bred more considering all he has accomplished.

[RocketDog]

This thread is very interesting for us "less educated".

Carry on, please!

[hunterisgreat]

Originally Posted by RocketDog

This thread is very interesting for us "less educated".

Carry on, please!

What do you want to know?

[pets4life]

wolf i need to ask you, you saw UFO yourself do you think he produced social aggession or did he have social aggression?

[RocketDog]

Originally Posted by hunterisgreat

What do you want to know?

Everything!

[lhczth]

Originally Posted by KristiM

Im just curious about what dogs on the dams damline would be the issue? I believe I read on here that belschick Von eicken-bruche was known as being rather nasty. Optikas dusty is line bred 2-3 on him. Is that where his potential "extra temperament" may come from. I do find him a little over the top, but not in a nervy way, in an overly dominant way. Not directed at me... Just everyone else.

Belschik had very high social aggression and was also what would be called "rank". I have talked to people that knew him personally and he could be a bit scary to handle. He was an old dog when I bred to him, but he was very approachable. He also still had an air of superiority about him. You knew and he knew he was something special. I bred him to a bitch that also had high social aggression, was very dominant, but would have never ever thought about biting me. From that litter, Navarre has social aggression, but not the extent that his father had and, like his mother, would NEVER EVER think about biting his handler. He is social and approachable, but his intensity either makes people uncomfortable or makes them go "wow". Vala does not have the social aggression, IMO, anywhere close to what was found in her mother, father or brother. She is civil (to go along with the topic). Where I got the strong social aggression again was in the next generation.

[KristiM]

Originally Posted by lhczth

Belschik had very high social aggression and was also what would be called "rank". I have talked to people that knew him personally and he could be a bit scary to handle. He was an old dog when I bred to him, but he was very approachable. He also still had an air of superiority about him. You knew and he knew he was something special. I bred him to a bitch that also had high social aggression, was very dominant, but would have never ever thought about biting me. From that litter, Navarre has social aggression, but not the extent that his father had and, like his mother, would NEVER EVER think about biting his handler. He is social and approachable, but his intensity either makes people uncomfortable or makes them go "wow". Vala does not have the social aggression, IMO, anywhere close to what was found in her mother, father or brother. She is civil (to go along with the topic). Where I got the strong social aggression again was in the next generation.

Now I remember it was you who had mentioned Belschick on another thread What you describe sounds very much like my dog, very, very intense (which personally I prefer a bit of a "lighter" dog esp in work) he does tend to make people uncomfortable with how intense he is. Also very, very dominant (not to me but everyone else.) I'm curious about where "nerves" come into play with a dog like this? I know lots of people seem to believe that a lot of the behaviors I talk about with Havoc are just weak nerves (obviously not being able to SEE the dog plays a huge role in assumptions) but are dogs like this naturally a bit on the nervy side? Or is it just dominance, and aggression?

[hunterisgreat]

Originally Posted by KristiM

Now I remember it was you who had mentioned Belschick on another thread What you describe sounds very much like my dog, very, very intense (which personally I prefer a bit of a "lighter" dog esp in work) he does tend to make people uncomfortable with how intense he is. Also very, very dominant (not to me but everyone else.) I'm curious about where "nerves" come into play with a dog like this? I know lots of people seem to believe that a lot of the behaviors I talk about with Havoc are just weak nerves (obviously not being able to SEE the dog plays a huge role in assumptions) but are dogs like this naturally a bit on the nervy side? Or is it just dominance, and aggression?

You must be careful, as I have found in the dog world as opposed to say, my work field, many of the standard words lack clear definition.. compounded with that they describe intangible things... and what is meant when a word is used changes anywhere from subtly to dramatically from person to person. This greatly hinders communication. The words I see people struggle to *clearly* align on a single meaning are: *nerve*, defensive drive, aggression, dominance.

So my point is what one person would call "weak nerves", one might call "natural suspicion", or "sharpness", or "civil aggression", or "social aggression", or "aloofness".

If I told you Jäger growls at any men who walk up to us, you could fairly conclude that he is fear aggressive and unconfident just as fairly as you could conclude that he is highly dominant with high suspicion and has high civil & social aggression. In either case I haven't given nearly enough information (and I don't believe I could give enough purely with the written word or even a video.. one must actually observe the dog) to make a fair assessment

Only you, through training and meticulous analysis of your dog, coupled with an honest ability to put egos down as much as is possible and say "am I really objectively and unbiasedly analyzing my dog", will be able to determine your dogs makeup. When you find yourself being able to predict his reactions to the world with a high degree of reliability then you probably are on target with the assessment. When you have many "I didn't think he'd do that", or "He's never done that before" moments, then its time to go back to the drawing board and see where you judged incorrectly.