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Old 11-19-2012, 11:08 AM   #61 (permalink)
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Ari is a Brawnson grandson.
I have his mother and brother here. Neither of them possess the same "something." Although his mom does command respect. I learned very quickly not to grab at her collar when she came here.
Jäger is a Brawnson grandson :-) one thing I love about him is his bark is much more intimidating than almost any other GSDs I've seen. Even ones that are also similar in their drives etc. he has a really deep bark for a GSD
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Old 11-19-2012, 11:59 AM   #62 (permalink)
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hunter i sent u a pvt
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Old 11-19-2012, 12:03 PM   #63 (permalink)
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in a litter tho of 5 pups one can be the alpha but in a years time if all pups stay together that same alpha will be over taken by another pup, it shifts a lot

thats why people get 2 female gsd and they think it will work having 1 alpha but when they both mature the beta often turns out to think its the boss lol

I have heard of this happening a few times has anyone else like breeders ?


gags is the no collar grabbing thing cause she was an adult and not use to it? and you are a stranger to her? do you think its not safe to let a stranger grab any protection dogs collar? even tho they seem okay with it one day they just might get annoyied and bite?

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Old 11-19-2012, 12:31 PM   #64 (permalink)
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@jag I think social aggression to an extent can be predicted by a breeder. I was told havoc would be like this based on his 3/4 siblings. I believe Lee has quite a bit of experience with these siblings and his sire? As well ad bred a female that is a 1/2 sister to his dam. His 3/4 brother was born about 1 year before him and was described as a little too serious for top sport and would make a better police dog. I believe he is currently an active police dog.

I think a lot of being able to tell what a dog has is about the "vibe" they give off. People very rarely will approach havoc just because he gives that "look" the don't f with me look.

I also think that a dog that is socially aggressive, always upping the ante, doesn't "like" strangers, will bite if challenged etc. should be watched a little more closely (managed) around people. JMO.


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OK, thanks. I was wondering if breeders could really 'know'. I'd rather have the 'heads up' ahead of time to know what to expect if possible. Everything else has been 100% spot on that I was told by my breeder. Anybody know what Czech line dogs bring this trait?
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:31 PM   #65 (permalink)
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old border patrol lines they say, but again ive met a border patrol bitch that was from those lines that seem less defensive than my girl when being worked so its just so hard to say. She was not mixed with west german or anything.

Better to look at breeders of working dogs and ask for individual dog traits than lines

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Old 11-19-2012, 01:47 PM   #66 (permalink)
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old border patrol lines they say, but again ive met a border patrol bitch that was from those lines that seem less defensive than my girl when being worked so its just so hard to say. She was not mixed with west german or anything.

Better to look at breeders of working dogs and ask for individual dog traits than lines
Right, gotcha. That's why I asked about which individual dogs. I believe the breeder, just wondering which ones are known for this out of my own curiosity.
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Old 11-19-2012, 02:25 PM   #67 (permalink)
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a couple of thoughts....

Yes - Cordan an Sat - Lord G. - both known for producing social aggression....Brawnson was and produced it - Poor Boban - I think he was so over the top aggressive period....that he was in a constant state of self defense too...

IMO - Handler aggression has NOTHING to do with Social aggression!!!!!!!!!!! There are dogs known to be and pass on handler aggression.....without getting into another major disagreement over certain dogs.....I have both personally seen and personally KNOWN a few dogs who had or at some point exhibited HA....only a few were so extreme they were euthanized....and as I know the owners of an infamous one, and have discussed it....it is my opinion, the dog was just plain crazy with aggression - it was not reactive handler aggression from abuse....

Yes - it is genetic. Some lines will produce it and it is exhibited in a self defense mode...but others are just 'screw you - I will do what I want' handler aggressive.

Social aggression is also genetic. Nessel v haus Antverpa was known for this, and for producing strong aggression. I know a LE Officer who had a dog bred by Chip Weiss in MI who was 2-2 on Nessel....strong strong dog - produced a ton of police dogs. I had a granddaughter of that male, and she was linebred on Lord....bred her...got very strong dogs in the whole litter with social aggression (C litter)...one is a LE border patrol dog, one was in a club where this was highly valued and many offers were made for the dog to be sold as a police dog....the next generation is also showing strong social aggression among other desireable traits. Interestingly, that generation also contains Cordan, so the social aggression aspect is brought forward from both sides - but both parents are stable, social dogs who have never ever shown any inappropriate aggression.

At the Nationals, Pam and Gary Hanarahan looked at Csabre and remarked that rather than Pirol, Gary's old competition dog, she was very very like Nessel - her gr grandfather....while I would never do a 2-2, that breeding on Nessel was done to produce a certain type of dog and the genetics are carrying through strongly.

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Old 11-19-2012, 02:32 PM   #68 (permalink)
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@jag I think social aggression to an extent can be predicted by a breeder. I was told havoc would be like this based on his 3/4 siblings. I believe Lee has quite a bit of experience with these siblings and his sire? As well ad bred a female that is a 1/2 sister to his dam. His 3/4 brother was born about 1 year before him and was described as a little too serious for top sport and would make a better police dog. I believe he is currently an active police dog.

I think a lot of being able to tell what a dog has is about the "vibe" they give off. People very rarely will approach havoc just because he gives that "look" the don't f with me look.

I also think that a dog that is socially aggressive, always upping the ante, doesn't "like" strangers, will bite if challenged etc. should be watched a little more closely (managed) around people. JMO.


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I disagree - the dog should be balanced enough to understand and recognize a threat - a dog with strong social aggression should NOT be unsafe - that is not a sound dog! Chuck himself is safe in social situations, he is good with children, he is not constantly aroused in a suspicious way....I have had him on a leash with a toy and done obedience with him...there are other elements in your dogs pedigree, from the dam line on the dam - NOT the sire line! - that MIXED with elements of Chucks that could easily push his temperament up a notch IMO

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Old 11-19-2012, 02:34 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Just wanted to point out that the link to Feivel earlier in the thread went to this dog--

Feivel Von Den Wannaer Hohen [Not!Feivel]

instead of this dog:

Feivel von den Wannaer Höhen
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Old 11-19-2012, 02:45 PM   #70 (permalink)
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I wouldn't consider my dog "unsafe" in social situations. But I do keep an extremely close eye on him in cases where there is a bit of confrontation. For example a few months ago was visiting my moms acreage, nearby is a natural area. We were walking the dogs and some dummy was shooting at rocks along the river with a 22. My stepdad told him to take it to the range (sine there were people fishing, walking dogs etc.) Dude got ornery about it, havoc dropped his toy and began to approach the dude in an unhappy way. If I didn't have a good recall and some control in that situation he probably would have been shot Was havoc wrong? I don't think so, we were all pretty tense about this **** head with a gun yelling at us! I have had a couple situations like this that could easily have gone south and the attitude around here is if your dog bites someone, your wrong. Period.

Havoc is fine in crowds (ever been to an agility trial?) He plays super nice with my niece and nephew and my grandma but does not "like" strangers and is generally quite dominant towards them.

My other dog thinks I am so bad a** that he never needs to worry about it And hence I never need to worry about him.


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