Being "civil" and social aggression?

[KristiM]

Originally Posted by hunterisgreat

Yeah but that's still a prey bite. Not "real". Walk up to the dog with a lot of posture and presense. If he returns in kind, he is civil. He wants to dominate you, not eat or play tug. His desire is to show you he is badder than you are. This is the social aspect of a civil dog, as it is a competition based behavior. He perceives you as a competitor, not prey. This is why civil dogs are always very dominant. I can teach any dog to bite without equipment, but you don't need to teach a civil dog, you just push the right buttons

That's exactly what I was saying, you just said it better The bite is real in the sense that there is no equipment, but the bite is out of prey.

[codmaster]

This definition of "civil" is interesting in that in other contexts the word usually refers to someone who is easygoing and easy to get along with. I didn't used to believe the definition in dog circles when I first heard it applied to an aggressive dog toward people.

Interesting use of the word.

More common uses

"It was hard to be civil when I felt so angry.
She was barely civil to me."

[codmaster]

Originally Posted by PatchonGSD

So in other words...a dog with social aggression is a dog that isnt hard to "set off" and will happily "take the challenger on his challenge." Is that fair to say?

There is also the issue of "Threshold" often talked about in dog temperament.

I.E. what does it take to set him off? That is what does the dog need to "trigger" their reaction.

A "low" threshold dog will react much quicker than one with a "high" threshold.

[hunterisgreat]

Originally Posted by codmaster

This definition of "civil" is interesting in that in other contexts the word usually refers to someone who is easygoing and easy to get along with. I didn't used to believe the definition in dog circles when I first heard it applied to an aggressive dog toward people.

Interesting use of the word.

More common uses

"It was hard to be civil when I felt so angry.
She was barely civil to me."

You could also describe a TSA bomb dog at the airport a civil dog, as he is working in civil service

[gagsd]

I think Mrs K. talked about how the term "civil" came to be used based on the German usage. Can't remember the specifics.

[wolfstraum]

These two terms are generally used....and perceptions vary....

I think they overlap.....and look at them more like a verb and a noun...

A dog who has social aggression is - IMO - a confident dominant dog who is balanced in drives, but has the components needed to be civil in work. To show appropriate aggression, to do suit work or hidden sleeve work naturally, a dog who does NOT stand over a sleeve on the ground while the helper cracks a whip or feints at him trying to get his attention.....a dog who spits out a sleeve and goes over it at the helper who has gone inactive while you "run in a circle" with the dog....Csabre did this and we had to teach her to carry the sleeve as she cared nothing for the sleeve and wanted that guy who was threatening her when she bit him.....

Social aggression is a term that to me describes a character trait. Civil is the action and behavior in motion.


Lee

[Jag]

Originally Posted by wolfstraum

These two terms are generally used....and perceptions vary....

I think they overlap.....and look at them more like a verb and a noun...

A dog who has social aggression is - IMO - a confident dominant dog who is balanced in drives, but has the components needed to be civil in work. To show appropriate aggression, to do suit work or hidden sleeve work naturally, a dog who does NOT stand over a sleeve on the ground while the helper cracks a whip or feints at him trying to get his attention.....a dog who spits out a sleeve and goes over it at the helper who has gone inactive while you "run in a circle" with the dog....Csabre did this and we had to teach her to carry the sleeve as she cared nothing for the sleeve and wanted that guy who was threatening her when she bit him.....

Social aggression is a term that to me describes a character trait. Civil is the action and behavior in motion.


Lee

That was crystal clear, Lee, thank you! One more question related to this. This is a genetic trait, correct? So would a breeder know what they will produce will carry this trait? Or would it be something that wouldn't be known until the dog is an adult? Can you see anything in pups that would lead you to believe that a dog has this trait?

[hunterisgreat]

Originally Posted by Jag

That was crystal clear, Lee, thank you! One more question related to this. This is a genetic trait, correct? So would a breeder know what they will produce will carry this trait? Or would it be something that wouldn't be known until the dog is an adult? Can you see anything in pups that would lead you to believe that a dog has this trait?

Yes it is largely genetic. Thats why labs and such are almost never civil.

To a degree yes in the same way you can take an educated guess about any other trait in a puppy. The puppy wouldn't show aggression at a person, but how the pup interacts with his littermates can give you an idea. For example I was told Jäger always took the toy he wanted and played with it alone as a puppy, and wouldn't let his littermates play with it. He didn't really want to play with his littermates so much. He is now 5 and he is still the same way. He only plays with Katya and thats only here and there. He loves to play with people, but the games are always "I dare you to take this toy from me" type games, except for retrieving a ball which he dearly loves. The challenge over a toy games are all a show of social dominate behavior. Hard to describe, you'd have to see it first hand.

You can train behaviors, but you cannot train traits or desires or drives. A civil or socially aggressive dog will desire to challenge opponents so. When this dog barks at someone and the person knowingly or unknowingly displays submissive behaviour, this is deeply satisfying to this type of dog. They have big ego's.

[gagsd]

This dog is said to have produced "social aggression" VA1 Mutz aus der Kückstraße.

Even people with a ton of experience debate whether social aggression exists, and if it does, is it "good?"
Dogs like Mink, SG Mink vom Haus Wittfeld
Boban, Boban von Grauen Monstab
Feivel (and Faro) Feivel Von Den Wannaer Hohen
and '00&'02 WPO CHAMPION Stormfront's Brawnson
are dogs that based on my (limited) knowledge, may be dogs that possessed social aggression.
Some of these dogs have the reputation as being "handler aggressive." But I have also heard some of the stories regarding how they were handled, and if true, it seems no wonder.
Donn Yarnall wrote a super piece a while back regarding how some dogs work much, much, better when treated as a partner rather than as if by a dictator. (paraphrasing!).

[codmaster]

Originally Posted by hunterisgreat

Yes it is largely genetic. Thats why labs and such are almost never civil.

..............
You can train behaviors, but you cannot train traits or desires or drives. A civil or socially aggressive dog will desire to challenge opponents so. When this dog barks at someone and the person knowingly or unknowingly displays submissive behaviour, this is deeply satisfying to this type of dog. They have big ego's.

But not every pup in the same litter will have the same behavior, will they?

If there are three pups in a liter with the same genetic make up to act this way, would they all show the behavior; or is it an "Alpha" like thing where there may be multiple dogs with the dominant personality but only one "Alpha"?