I'm looking for some clarification on these two things. The more I try to research it myself, the more I am confused.
1.) Is "social aggression" the same thing as being "civil", essentially?
2.) This is something that must be bred for (like good nerves), and cannot be taught, correct?
3.) Is it fair to say that a dog with "social aggression" is a dominant dog in personality, and one that would actually bite the flesh of a person vs a dog that will *only* bite a sleeve?
4.) Can anyone provide an example of a "civil" /"socially aggressive" dog?
yeah i agree with vandal I think also a lot of good dogs have bitten people its just poor handling and victim probably did something stupid the dog is given a bad label as a fear biter or a un stable dog.
Thats why no one is breeding nice real dogs much anymore society cant handle them people have no respect for dogs anymore
people put unrealistic expectations on dogs now
I like to train my dogs aggression so i can control it in real situations turn it on and off so now when something happens at least i can fire her on and then off rather than wait for an explosion when she senses a threat, she still will react to threats tho but i think training in pp made her a calmer more stable dog. She more looks for a signal to act but before training she would have acted on her much quicker. PP training also teaches ways to subdue a man in short periods of time without risking the dogs safety and yours. You know your dog has the skills to win then. Kinda like a trained martial arts fighter like hunter.
Like the others said i dont think a good dog really needs training to protect you but I think it really boosts their combat skills and confidence and they will go into the fight and stay in the fight like they will win everytime. Like if i had a choice of taking a normal man with me to protect me vs a martial arts expert Id pick the martial arts expert. Both will need courage but the martial arts expert will have the skills and much higher confidence level cause he knows what he has to do to take someone out.
vandal seems to have and breed some really nice dogs lol
It's getting really tiring... the same thing over and over. Sometimes I wonder if people do selective reading or not.
From my understanding, working dog handlers understand, treat and handle their dogs differently. It gets very apparent in discussions like these.
If I am not outside, my dogs won't be in the frontyard, period. That is the only place where you can actually reach over and through. As long as I'm there, my dogs are not a threat to anyone and they won't perceive you as a threat.
As for somebody knocking at the door. There are three Shepherds and one Mal in the house, you make a guess what happens when somebody knocks at the door.
I have yet to meet anyone that ever said "He pinned my father down, he's oh so protective."
I have not ever met anyone like that, nor do I know anyone like that. So it's basically out of the question for me. I don't even know how to respond to that.
No one ever here suggested anything like that, nor do we advocate anything like that.
Our dogs respond the way we want them to respond. If we are calm and assertive, they are calm and assertive. If we are excited, they get excited. If we are cautious, they respond to that too. They pick up on our behavior.
If I'm on the footstep of my house and the dogs are in the yard and you walk up on the fence, there is a good distance between the two of us and the dogs would be faster at you than I am. As long as I am calm. Even though I'm on the other side of the yard, you could still reach over the fence and pet any of them because I'm there, I'm calm, and I do not perceive you as a threat. Chances are, they completely ignore you because you are not interesting and they'd probably ignore you trying to call them over too and would go about their own things.
So in a lot of the aggression threads if a dog barks, hackles or growls, in some of the scenarios mentioned here, many say the dog is FA.
I think in some of those cases the dog is doing what a good GSD should do.
Now I realize there are genetic nerve bags but the more I read here the more I wonder, could the owners be creating the instability in some of these dogs.
Maybe some of these dogs are ok but the owners don't understand the way the dog should be.
Both my dogs have strong territorial aggression. I want them to have that. But some would say they are acting out of fear.
And once people hear their dog is fear aggressive, I bet it just sticks and the poor dog gets labeled and handled as if he is.
Self-fulfilling prophecy.
I am often amazed at the different information I get from real people versus what is on an internet forum.
I haven't read the thread yet but I do agree with Andy. My dog is FA with other dogs. You can see the lack of confidence, the shying away, the tension. But there is something about a person not moving, frozen, that sets her off. It's not normal to her and she reacts STRONGLY to it. There is no hesitation in her response. She's not scared of the person...she just simply really doesn't like it.
Shoot... I can make my dog insecure in the way I handle him. It is very apparent when I train in front of people that I respect and are more experienced than I. I get worried. The dog starts ear-flicking and glancing out of the corner of his eye at me because he senses my nervousness.
Most watching cannot tell how I feel.... but they can see the dog's reaction.
I watched a video taped seminar recently. Kathy Sdao's "Cujo Meets Pavlov."
She presented a video of an aggressive dog.... and I couldn't believe it. To me, the dog was insecure and showing it, but compared to aggression that I have seen the dog was like a 4 on a 1-10 scale of aggressive behaviors. Just not very scary.
So yes, Mrs K..... it certainly depends on the person doing the evaluating.
But there is something about a person not moving, frozen, that sets her off. It's not normal to her and she reacts STRONGLY to it. There is no hesitation in her response. She's not scared of the person...she just simply really doesn't like it.
Well of course. There is nothing 'normal" about that behavior. It is threatening. How do I know that? I work dogs as the helper, that's how. I use that body language and this is where you see who the dogs really are. Again, watch National Geographic or two dogs before they fight and what precedes an attack. Very quiet, still, tense "frozen" behavior on the part of the "attacker". Ever watch the posturing of two dogs before they fight? Slow circling, frozen, tense tight muscles, staring. It is threatening to a dog. Ask yourself how you would feel if you were introduced to a person who froze and stared at you. It would un-nerve most people or at the very least make you uncomfortable.
As for what Andy said. Of COURSE that is the case. I have seen it over and over and OVER. People think they can behave any old way and the dog should not notice. Ever worked with a nervous person or someone who over-reacts to everything? It will wear you out! lol. Dogs are living things, they FEEL. Goes back to what I said about Jeff a few pages ago. No fear, very comfortable with dogs, so, they do not view him as any kind of threat. Just like a child.
Honestly, at first I did not understand why people just could not not grasp this. I have come to realize that people are really resistant to looking at themselves and their own behavior. They don't seem to realize how they are behaving and almost all of them have to have a coach to point it out. It can be really subtle or not.
Well of course. There is nothing 'normal" about that behavior. It is threatening. How do I know that? I work dogs as the helper, that's how. I use that body language and this is where you see who the dogs really are. Again, watch National Geographic or two dogs before they fight and what precedes an attack. Very quiet, still, tense "frozen" behavior on the part of the "attacker". Ever watch the posturing of two dogs before they fight? Slow circling, frozen, tense tight muscles, staring. It is threatening to a dog. Ask yourself how you would feel if you were introduced to a person who froze and stared at you. It would un-nerve most people or at the very least make you uncomfortable.
As for what Andy said. Of COURSE that is the case. I have seen it over and over and OVER. People think they can behave any old way and the dog should not notice. Ever worked with a nervous person or someone who over-reacts to everything? It will wear you out! lol. Dogs are living things, they FEEL. Goes back to what I said about Jeff a few pages ago. No fear, very comfortable with dogs, so, they do not view him as any kind of threat. Just like a child.
Honestly, at first I did not understand why people just could not not grasp this. I have come to realize that people are really resistant to looking at themselves and their own behavior. They don't seem to realize how they are behaving and almost all of them have to have a coach to point it out. It can be really subtle or not.
I don't disagree, Anne. I understand perfectly why she reacts and I don't discourage her from doing so. She's only done that a couple times. The first at about 6 months old, a woman who did it on purpose just to see her reaction because she had been bitten the week before. I was furious. The second, some poor guy who jumped off a train and just happened to walk out of the woods in the middle of nowhere into a group with two GSDs. Mine looked at him once, twice, and decided this was not ok. The other just laid there and couldn't have cared less. I'll take Jax's reaction any day and be thankful she's with me.
vandal but why are the cocky ones the ones that think they are dog whisperer the ones who always get bit or the ones who our dogs always hate? My dog hates men who act dominant that say that all dogs love them? they are the ones who mine will most likely go for if she ever does. The ones who think are every dogs best friend?
While a person who truely does fear my dog you can tell they shake and stuff my dog i know never reacts to them. She might sniff them in the house but she wont ever bother them. LIke if i know someone is scared of dogs but is not going to try to kick or hit my dog out of fear I am never scared my dog will bark or try to hurt them. But the cocky people or ones who think they are like every dogs best friend I worry about lol
fear of my dog does not make my dog react even if they back away from her or shake. Real fear of her. But trying to dominate her does.
I do have a few friends that are/were scared of my dog but she has never bugged or reacted them. they arent animal or dog people.
I don't want to bring up Cesar Milan and this video is NOT about Cesar Milan but it is how the owners view their own dog and what the dog actually is once Cesar enters the yard.
"I either pictured a bloodboth" "Knight fighting a dragon"...
Again, this is NOT about CM but about how people view aggression. They don't know what they really have on their hand and then the words being used...
Ok, I have to stop now, it has stopped raining and I don't have time to keep posting. I agree with Mrs K but can't download the video.
I can't directly answer your question about "cocky people" without watching their behavior. I was talking about specific body language that a dog can perceive as threatening but there is so much more going on there, I'd have to write a book and some people would STILL not understand. Like I said earlier, much of this you have to see. It becomes clear for most people when it is demonstrated with their own dog. They know their dogs to a degree and can understand more clearly. Talking about it tends to confuse the issue because it is never about just ONE thing that is going on. Things change too rapidly. People used to get mad at me when I worked their dogs because I would tell them to do something and then the next day, tell them to stop doing it. "But you told me to do that" they would say and I would respond, "that was yesterday" but in many cases, it is seconds. Probably confused more people with what I just said and is why I think I should shut up now.
Well it drives me nuts when people say "my dog SENSED that guy was bad".
I think to an extent dogs can do that but overall, it may be just a difference.
Or, as in Jax's case, the people might be just an idiot.
Temperament tests in shelters include a person with a cane, or walker, a person with an umbrella, a person who opens an umbrella, for this very reason. Many dogs haven't seen a person with a cane or walker, that doesn't mean the person with cane/walker is a mass murderer, it means the dog simply hasn't seen that before and it freaks them out
Well it drives me nuts when people say "my dog SENSED that guy was bad".
I think to an extent dogs can do that but overall, it may be just a difference.
Or, as in Jax's case, the people might be just an idiot.
Dogs have a tremendous innate ability to sense things. If they didn't they would not be used as service dogs for the disabled or as seizure alert dogs.
Temperament tests in shelters include a person with a cane, or walker, a person with an umbrella, a person who opens an umbrella, for this very reason. Many dogs haven't seen a person with a cane or walker, that doesn't mean the person with cane/walker is a mass murderer, it means the dog simply hasn't seen that before and it freaks them out
A dog with good nerves does not freak out when they see these things. Actually it surprises me how many dogs of all breeds take these things in stride. I am a CGC evaluator and my friend who does the class building up to the test does all sorts of things like walking with a walker around the dogs or pulling a crate dolly. Some of the dogs will look, but we have never had any freak.
Unfortunately shelter environments put many dogs into a stressful situation that they are ill equipped to handle. That, though, is another topic.
We are not talking about dogs in shelters. We are talking about GSDs. You lean more to the unstable dog thinking than what we are discussing.
One thing I wanted to add about cocky people is most of them don't respect boundries...of dogs or people. Ok bye.
As far as "sensing the bad guy", it depends on whether I trust my dog to make that call in the first place. I have one GSD who I trust when he alerts, perks up, reacts. We are in tune with each other. If he pauses and turns his head, I follow his gaze too. However I've also had a GSD that I did not trust because she had poor judgment (terrified of the nicest people, OK with someone I know to basically be a sexual predator). Just because the latter dog probably would bite someone before the former dog would doesn't in any way lead me to believe there was social aggression or a true sense of an ill-intentioned person, just a low threshold for a fight or flight response. So whether or not I trust my dog to "sense a bad guy" depends on whether or not I trust my dog and that depends on how well I know my dog and the bond that we have and by having a deeper bond I have an understanding of my dog's nerve and whether or not they are correctly calibrated to sense a bad guy.
My own GSD is very friendly, moreso than the average GSD in my opinion. I trust his judgement on people 110% of the time. He has NEVER been wrong about someone.
I want a stable dog that will protect me or the house and car if the situation arises. I am finding that dogs with good nerves are becoming the minority as the general population leans towards dogs with bad nerves IMHO.
You need to train with some different people, Hunter.
We did a demo of this for a 4-H group to show them how the dog can turn on when threatened and then turn off when there is no longer a threat. Most of the kids were more than willing to come down and love on my bitch right after watching her want to eat my helper (some of the adults less so, LOL).
Hunter, I saw your dog's sire at the 2006 regionals and he was very approachable off the field. Nate had him out hanging around after the trial. Kids were visiting him and petting him, other people came up to see him. Very clear dog.
Train with different people b/c they are scared of Jäger or because I have to make videos to illustrate things to club members? lol. I'm working hard to get our club in tip top shape. Wait till you guys see the monster of a border collie I work that will be doing is BH & IPO1 as soon as he is old enough (10 months old now).
Jäger is a clone of Stuka with a deeper bark and slightly beefier build. Same temperament though... its just the way people act towards him. This is my opinion, and I've heard this from several folks familiar with Stuka and Brawnson, and from someone who did a ton of helper work with Stuka and has also has worked/still works Jäger a great deal. He is one of the few helpers that isn't scared or always jumpy around Jäger, and I think thats because he can read a dog extremely well. I think because of the way he just silently stares at people it puts them off. Oddly people in public are more comfortable coming up and interacting than seasoned helpers lol. I think its hilarious that this is the way it is.
Our club is a pretty junior new club (started in 2010, I joined in Jan 2011, and I'm the first to IPO1 a dog, and the first to IPO2 a dog, and will be the first to IPO3 a dog). For a while we didn't have a second helper so I had to use club members to work on what I could as a handler, and do the other helper work myself on him. As you can see below, this is a club member, and she is less scared of Jäger nearly any actual helpers I work him on. Obviously if I was at all worried about what he would do I would never put an inexperienced, unprotective-geared person in front of him like this.
People respect my dogs in the clubs I train with, but they aren't freaking out that my dogs might bite them at any time. Well, except one of the newer helpers who was a bit nervous around Deja the first time he worked her. All I did was told him not to slip the sleeve until I was there. Of course I have always been lucky to train with people who knew and worked dogs like ours.
I have a tough time watching videos so won't be able to see yours.
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