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Being "civil" and social aggression?

53K views 262 replies 27 participants last post by  GSDElsa 
#1 ·
I'm looking for some clarification on these two things. The more I try to research it myself, the more I am confused.

1.) Is "social aggression" the same thing as being "civil", essentially?


2.) This is something that must be bred for (like good nerves), and cannot be taught, correct?

3.) Is it fair to say that a dog with "social aggression" is a dominant dog in personality, and one that would actually bite the flesh of a person vs a dog that will *only* bite a sleeve?

4.) Can anyone provide an example of a "civil" /"socially aggressive" dog?
 
#154 ·
Ya he is kind of a jerk;) My logic on it is that in his head he shouldn't have to escalate like he normally does since the "line" has been crossed and people should know better! Like I said he's a jerk;)
 
#155 · (Edited)
I don't care for dogs who act without warning. Not at all.

The simple solution is to use obedience to tell the dog how you expect him to behave BEFORE something happens in all of these situations. It is more difficult when these dogs are younger because maturity, ( and the right handling), tends to mellow things out, for the lack of a better way to put it.
Also, you have to be in control of YOURSELF. That means you can't be in these situations, with people around, when you are nervous or tense. You have to be calm, matter of fact and in control. I have found that the many idiots who wander America''s streets will, (for whatever reason), respect you and your dog when you tell them you are training him. If you simply ask them to go away, they will tell you all about how "talented" they are with animals. Those people are the ones the dogs ALWAYS want to bite...if I don't get 'em first anyway. lol.

I have a friend who breeds some pretty serious dogs. SHE has nerves of steel. I remember years ago, one of the dogs she was training was the definition of what I posted above . Didn't likes strangers and would bite them if given the opportunity. She worked the dog in obedience and then took him to a supermarket and told him to down by the door. People would come out the door and want to pet the dog. "SURE" she would tell them, "go right ahead". They would pet the dog and leave happy. She never said to them, " oh no, he will BITE you". She never acted like she was even the tiniest bit concerned. That would have put the dog on alert. She stood there as relaxed as could be but the dog was under her control. Most people, do not have this kind of skill or control of themselves, ( or their dogs), but it is a great example of the way people should at least" try" to behave when they have these kinds of dogs. It is never a good idea to warn people either, since that creates tension and anxiety in them and the dogs can SEE IT.

I am not saying to be so relaxed you are not ready to correct or manage the dog but you have to think about how YOU are feeling when you handle these kinds of dogs. You cannot fool the dogs, they know what you are feeling. If you are tense, it tells the dog that something is wrong. They will start to look for the reason you are upset. So, like I said, you have to be in full command of your own emotions when you work with these kinds of dogs.
 
#156 ·
One more thing that I should have said about dogs who act without warning.....Most of the time, they are not being jerks. It is a case where they are reacting to something you are doing or feeling. Maybe a slight tightening of the leash because you are anticipating a problem. That is usually the culprit, ( and most people have no idea they are doing it), or it could be what I said above. You start to get tense because you know he might do something. The dogs sees it and acts.
 
#158 ·
One more thing that I should have said about dogs who act without warning.....Most of the time, they are not being jerks. It is a case where they are reacting to something you are doing or feeling. Maybe a slight tightening of the leash because you are anticipating a problem. That is usually the culprit, ( and most people have no idea they are doing it), or it could be what I said above. You start to get tense because you know he might do something. The dogs sees it and acts.
Yep, I will have to video what *I* am doing around the van. You are probably very right;) I have been instituting a lot more control with everything involving the van (only getting in and out when I say etc) and he has imporved already most likely becsause I am more confident of my control around the van. So often this stuff is a handler issue!
 
#157 ·
I agree, I don't like that he doesn't really give a universal "hey you, get away from my van" warning. I tell people to stay away from the van when I am loading and unloading. I am only working on the obedience around the van with a few dog savvy people. I still consider it a case of management though and I would hate to have to kill someone and hide them in the woods because my dog bit them;) (just kidding! In case anyone is offended by that.)

For the most part I act pretty relaxed, people pet him, its fine. If the person looks like it might be a problem I get a grip on my dog. I have gotten pretty good at reading people, if they look overly scared, I don't allow interaction, if they look overly cocky, same thing. It gets better every day (well not every day, some days its worse, but thats life.)
 
#160 ·
Still trying to sort this out. I know very few GSDs that *won't* bark, lunge, snap, etc when someone approaches their vehicle, kennel, fence, front door, etc but I'm guessing the vast majority of these aren't all that socially aggressive, at least not in the more confident, assertive/forward way that we are talking about?
 
#161 ·
Karlo doesn't react when people walk by my van. IF they stick their hands inside, or try to pet him(he's crated with the back hatch open), then he will warning growl/snap at them. When people come to the door he'll investigate before going off....which is good for me because my other two dogs go off at a scent, car pulling in that they don't recognize or someone knocking.
As far as social aggression with Karlo, I believe he has it in him, but won't 'act' on it unless he is provoked(which could mean someone he doesn't know coming up and putting hands on him)His 'acting' would be a warning growl first.
 
#162 ·
What is the difference between a dog that is socially aggressive and a dog that is aloof and doesn't want to be handled/touched by a stranger? From Armin's definition I get that a socially aggressive dog is going to act unless someone commands him not to? For me a GSD should act on provocation, just as a general breed trait, but if the breed is lacking in social aggression there must be more to it?
 
#163 ·
I'm not going to debate whether dogs have a certain level of social aggression, or if it is "appropriate " social aggression and so on. I think if something is deemed as a positive, people decide their dog has it, but then make sure to add the socially acceptable behaviors as well. I am just trying to be clear and honest because more and more, I think people need to hear the reality and not so much of the rest.

There are different types that make up the breed and of course, not all GSDs are socially aggressive...period. The dogs I am talking about were not mauling everyone in sight but I did have to learn how to handle the first one I owned, that's for sure. I entered SchH trials where, ( yes even back then, but with more sense), they tested for unprovoked aggression. We still had a loose leash temperament test before tracking, groups to heel through, judges right there on the field etc. I traveled all over the place with my first dog, who was certainly SA. He went to the WUSV twice, requiring two trips to Europe, not to mention, there were very few local trials for me back then.

The reason that was possible was because of me and the relationship I had with my dogs. Not to mention the people who taught me how to handle him. I made it clear what I did, and did not, want these dogs to do. It's that simple. They were not unreasonable, serve themselves kind of dogs, ( more of those now), they were very willing and had a strong desire to work with me. A strong desire to please and the bond was intense.

Never would view the helper as a playmate ...ever....always vigilant against outsiders and I had to manage them when people came to my house. They were ALWAYS watching what visitors were up to and no, there was absolutely no "fear" involved in how these dogs behaved. Once you became a part of the household, you were accepted by these dogs.

Never aggressive with children, they had a real sense about that. If the situation called for it, there was no hesitation to act and this wasn't about growling or snapping at someone. These dogs were not indecisive. Most now have no understanding of these types of dogs. I am sure more than a few have read this thread and are going down their list of definitions of what Anne is "really " talking about and thinking these were unstable, nasty dogs. Nasty is not a term I would ever use to describe them. They were so above that kind of behavior but yes, it is something you have to see.
I have decided that trying to describe some of these things on boards is maybe not the best idea due to what people already have installed in their heads. Especially nowadays. You really have to experience GSDs, all kinds of them, to understand clearly what you are seeing. I simply know that these were dogs I will never forget, they were really very special dogs and not at all like another breed.
 
#165 ·
Very well said!

One question - what age did a person stop being a "child" with your dog(s)?

The ones that I have had similar it seemed to be about 13-14 where the dog saw them as people and not a "child'.

Sort of similar to when a puppy loses the "puppy exsemption" for their behavior with an adult dog.
 
#168 ·
I will just add this in response to the last couple of posts. The dogs I am talking about taught me quite a bit about myself. Like I said already, dogs feel what we feel. People talk about nerves going down the leash but then seem to not accept that a dog would want to protect them, without being verbally told to.
A dog's first language is body language. English, ( or German etc), is their second language. The dogs I discussed were QUITE in tune with me. They felt what I did and if my behavior told them something was wrong, they started looking for the source of it. I had to learn to be confident and in control of my emotions, so I did not confuse my own dog.
Dogs watch us constantly, they don't have computers and TV to distract them. Our body language tells them things and you cannot be nervous or tense and hide it from your dog. I tell my dogs people are ok more with what I am thinking, and the resulting body language, than what I am saying to them. Might remind them to sit but the rest of what I am doing is saying much more to them than that command.
 
#169 ·
Anne and I have been discussing this in emails too. She was asking me what dogs I have known with SA. Here is a description of a dog owned by a friend (whose dam is from Anne). This dog has SA.

Very confident, some what aloof. Would definitely stop an intruder, but once he has been told someone is welcome he is fine. He knows me now and will come over for pets and actually is very accepting of people once Jeff invites them into the house. He isn't that accepting of other people handling him (Jeff was a bit worried about this for the breed survey/conformation thing), but he will give a definite warning and not just go off on someone. He is a bit scary to be in front of in the blind the first time. :) The biggest thing I notice about Fella is his confidence. In that respect he reminds me a lot of Belschik. These are dogs that just know their place in the world and it is at the top.
Add to this is he has NO handler aggression and can run with other dogs (males and females).

Nike was interesting when she was in my truck. In a crate or in the house she was rather vocal about someone approaching. When she was loose in my truck you would not even know she was there (maybe if you had tried to break in). She would let people in and then would lean forward from the back seat and give them a little growl just to let them know she was there and she was watching. The first time she did this sort of surprised me. After that I would just let her know the person was allowed. Deja is another one who is actually pretty quiet and doesn't tend to make a fuss (maybe she figures everyone else is doing a good enough job), but she lets her presence known once I open the door. Even then she is quite and will put her feet on the storm door and just stare the person in the face. That almost makes people step back more quickly than the raging barking monsters because they are not expecting it.
 
#170 ·
Dogs learning to read us is an excellent point. I learned a lot from Nike, but maybe more so from my husband despite his not being a dog trainer/handler. I always worried about her and would be right on her anytime we were in a group of people. Having had, previously, a nervy dog with reactive aggression probably didn't help me not worry. I came home one day and there Nike was outside with my husband, a group of his friends and their kids. She was fine. My husband didn't worry. He just treated things as matter of fact and because of that so did Nike.
 
#172 ·
I agree that handler aggression is a seperate thing all together. Jäger is my most socially aggressive and civil dog, and also the least likely to show aggression at me (never even... the others have made or considered making a pass at me). Even if he is upset with me it will get redirected to something else.
 
#173 ·
I've read this thread as it progressed and I don't understand why people think it's okay for a dog to be "socially aggressive" when they or their owners are not threatened?
For instance, a neighbor reaching over the fence? Sure you could say "the dog felt a threat", but isn't that why good nerves are important?
If you're standing right there, and aren't afraid, why should the dog interpret that situation as a threat?

Am I misunderstanding something?
 
#174 ·
I am curious about this, to an extent I agree that no, someone reaching over my fence really is not much of a threat. But is there no such thing as territorial behaviour? I always thought GSDs were known for being territorial?
 
#175 · (Edited)
they are kristi but it has been bred out of them like vandal said some of them will grab a hold of someones arm comming into their territory but if these same dogs are let out or get loose in public or their fenced area they are usually ok


it is what made gsds and what makes SOME GSDs amazing guard dogs people dont walk around with a sign saying i am a threat they wait till their owners are there to let someone in. Most gsds will bark and look bad but the one i was talking about will nail someone if you come into its fence house or car without being invited.
 
#176 ·
I meant if their owner is standing there. Many people have said their dog is there while they visit over the fence, and if the person is too close or reaches over, the dog bites.
It seems a "good" dog, standing there while owner visits across the fence could distinguish that the person is not a threat??
 
#177 ·
I find sometimes trying to explain it in the context of humans where you can more easily imagine the feelings and emotions you would experience in the scenario can aid in understanding whats going on in the dog's head.
 
#179 · (Edited)
thats a foolish thing to do tho i would never let someone reach over the fence thats like giving a civil dog a bone (your arm) to bite lol its a temptation, if they want to come in the fence they can properly come around


also with a dog like this you dont own a fence where someone can reach over and pet your dog that is very stupid and foolish

don't tease it with your arm tho lol where it cant see your body ive done hidden sleeve work with my dog shes quick to latch on so i wouldnt ever let someoen do that

But if i am there i can open my gate and she will run out sniff them and then they come in
 
#180 ·
Don't know what either of my dogs would do in that situation...never had a conversation with my current neighbours over the fence. I have neighbour issues, they are "not dog people" and they have created kind of a volatile situation regarding my dog and the fence. Which I think is part of the reason why havoc's reaction to someone reaching over the fence would be overly violent.
 
#183 · (Edited)
We have a rather huge shift in mentality nowadays and the dogs are paying for it.

Would you consider a person reaching through a window in your house as threatening? I would. I might consider shooting 'em. Maybe that makes me unstable but a fence is usually surrounding the dog's territory and mine. If someone ignores the warning from the dog and reaches over anyway, I would expect my dog to escalate his response.

Again, this is not about unstable dogs but nowadays, any dog can be made to sound like he is. Years ago, dogs were expected to protect. It was accepted and people RESPECTED the dog's space and territory! I have so much sympathy for what the dog are put through now due to the level of ignorance that exists and the very unreasonable expectations. They are DOGS!
 
#187 ·
I expect territorial behavior to some degree, but if I am right there, I expect the dog to respect my attitude. For example, crate guarding--if I'm standing in front of the crate, the dog who is crate guarding should stop when I say. Same with the yard fence. If not, then I think it's a lack of either clarity on the dog's part or a lack of respect.
 
#195 ·
I expect territorial behavior to some degree, but if I am right there, I expect the dog to respect my attitude. For example, crate guarding--if I'm standing in front of the crate, the dog who is crate guarding should stop when I say. Same with the yard fence. If not, then I think it's a lack of either clarity on the dog's part or a lack of respect.
This is what I'm trying to find out :)

Is there such a lack of respect for their humans that these dogs are putting themselves and their owners in jeopardy?

To me, a good dog will sense a threat vs. a non-threat, and if they can't control themselves and bite your pastor coming for a visit, then either the dog has a flaw or your training has a flaw or your dog doesn't perceive you as the leader, or competent to decide if a threat exists or not.
 
#189 ·
I talk to my neighbor through the fence all the time. Doesn't matter which dog is there, they might bark at first but when they see she is okay with me, they chill out. If they didn't, I would consider it a problem with the dog AFTER I asked myself what I, ( or my neighbor), might be doing to incite them. That never happens. She has a Dobermann who is the same way. She has some dog sense also.
 
#190 ·
I like that my dogs won't just allow anyone to walk in the house or yard. That's part of owning a gsd to me. (I do think that havoc could be on the extreme side in his actions if someone strange walked into my house or stick their hand in my window.) But even Odin (who is a pretty chill dog) would make a lot of noise, get in your face, possibly nip/put his mouth on you etc if you came into my house or yard uninvited. My Aussie would have invited you in and sat in your lap! I hated that!!!
 
#191 · (Edited)
Just to be clear here, my first comments about the fence were in the context of me not being right there.
Also, I did not expect the dogs I talked about, to fully engage just on the sight of someone. They were dogs who would escalate. I have talked about walking Vandal by a river one day and a man coming out of a bush straight at us. That was for sure threatening and I felt threatened. Vandal did not bite him, he did a rather impressive hold and bark while I told the guy to hold still. If he hadn't, Vandal would have bitten him. That was not trained in the dog, he had the ability to "think" in these situations, some dogs don't and didn't back then either.

Nowadays, your dog cannot even bark at a person without someone thinking he is vicious or dangerous. So, just trying to keep things in context here.
 
#194 ·
Okay...so is the stranger welcome on the property??

And even if not (some church members going door-to-door) are we going to allow Fido to take them out?

But you need to qualify.... No human perceived threat, or no canine perceived threat??
We'll just say for the sake of argument that the stranger, although we've never met, we can tell means us no harm.
 
#201 ·
Okay...so is the stranger welcome on the property??

And even if not (some church members going door-to-door) are we going to allow Fido to take them out?
I might. :D

We'll just say for the sake of argument that the stranger, although we've never met, we can tell means us no harm.
...
 
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