I'm looking for some clarification on these two things. The more I try to research it myself, the more I am confused.
1.) Is "social aggression" the same thing as being "civil", essentially?
2.) This is something that must be bred for (like good nerves), and cannot be taught, correct?
3.) Is it fair to say that a dog with "social aggression" is a dominant dog in personality, and one that would actually bite the flesh of a person vs a dog that will *only* bite a sleeve?
4.) Can anyone provide an example of a "civil" /"socially aggressive" dog?
Pffft.....contrary to popular belief, dogs are animals. Ever watch Natural Geographic? Or the behavior of two dogs before they fight? A stare is certainly provocation. I can get even the most "prey, ( usually play), driven dog to light up by staring at them.
I tend to avoid those threads but since I have a boarding kennel here, I am forced to confront that mentality on a regular basis. It is so bad here in Los Angeles, I am now getting calls from people who are desperate to find a place where their dogs are kept in dog runs instead of turned out with 40 other dogs.
Seems like the pendulum is swinging back in the right direction but not NEARLY fast enough. What I offer as far as animal care is now a novelty but a necessary one for people who have certain kinds of dogs, or , who want their dog to stay with someone with my experience. More and more, I am boarding police service dogs as well, since they certainly do not want their dogs turned out with the herd of "fur babies".
So just out of curiosity here...
My girl would not hesitate to bite a person if I was being threatened in her presence. Like if I was accosted or about to get mugged, she would bite the guy. Does that mean she is civil?
My bo would bark but I am not sure of he would bite. I doubt he would.
vandal but what if our dog is great in personal protection but just not a nasty dog in public but will be on command and will bite for real? Mine doesnt act aggressive unless i ask her to? Or unless its terrirtoral aggression>? mine can be really nasty around the fence? but i never considered mine to be a social aggressive dog at all. But she will fire up on anyone i tell her to and probably bite them even a kid if i asked her to. But shes not aggressive in public she will let anyone pet her pretty much but i socialized the crap out of her shes met 100s of people. I just wanted a dog i could take everywhere but would turn on like switch a switch also and turn serious.
Just in public people will pet my dog sometimes off leash if she walks past i can't have a dog that will snap or take a chunk out of them lol Most of the time she will ignore their pets and keep walking which is what i like i just dont want a law suit or a liability dog i know shes safe. They can turn her on tho if they start acting aggressive towards us they could easily get her to get aggressive but still i didnt consider her social aggressive cause of that.
I never heard her snarl or bark at people unless they try to do something stupid like try to get in her fence without permission or go near her crate or car or in protection. But she seems to have a high high tollerance for people when shes off leash and free walking around in public. With kids being goofy or adults who dont know how to act properly. People running around and being stupid dont seem to anger her.
vandal but what if our dog is great in personal protection but just not a nasty dog in public but will be on command and will bite for real? Mine doesnt act aggressive unless i ask her to? Or unless its terrirtoral aggression>? mine can be really nasty around the fence? but i never considered mine to be a social aggressive dog at all. But she will fire up on anyone i tell her to and probably bite them even a kid if i asked her to. But shes not aggressive in public she will let anyone pet her pretty much but i socialized the crap out of her shes met 100s of people. I just wanted a dog i could take everywhere but would turn on like switch a switch also and turn serious.
Just in public people will pet my dog sometimes off leash if she walks past i can't have a dog that will snap or take a chunk out of them lol Most of the time she will ignore their pets and keep walking which is what i like i just dont want a law suit or a liability dog i know shes safe.
What do most socially aggressive dogs do when a stranger just walks up and puts his hands on them? do they growl usually? My dog just ignores it like there is nothing there. like she can't feel it.
My friends filas will foam at the mouth and probably nip.
They will counter. Since touch is near the end of the process of posturing and aggression, contact back (nipping), or fighting is the logical response.
My three would not take kindly to a stranger putting hands on them. They would warning growl and possibly bite. IF they can do the first greeting, then they'd probably be ok, depending on the 'stranger'.
Nike was not aggressive in a social situation. I took her to trials, stayed in hotels, took her to auctions and she would hang out with groups of friends with their kids. She was not super social as a young dog, but she also wasn't a loose canon. She just didn't care. Only person she ever hated was my vet and you didn't ever walk into my house uninvited. She had little respect for anyone but me as a friend found out when he tried to handle her for obedience and tracking titles.
Deja is actually more social, but I have to watch her more. She likes to push people and can be a bit scary to play ball/tug with (very intense). She also has traveled all over with me and, again, I don't worry about her around people. She wasn't too happy with her chiropractor last time, but unlike her grandmother and mother, she has yet to smile at him when he leans over her to adjust her neck.
The other dogs I knew also were fine as adults around people and groups of people. These dogs are not nasty, dangerous or unpredictable growling at stupid people or giving unprovoked bites.
Lisa, something interesting... Ari is very approachable, but acts as if people do not exist in Ari-world unless they have a ball, treat, etc.
However, I think he would have left me for Jeff L. at Indy. He really <liked> Jeff. It was odd, but interesting.
Aggression is not just fear or social.... My Anik dog has aggression, meets perceived threats quickly. Most of mine have been protective and/or territorial. But social aggression is something different and rare. IMO. I think my Ari has a touch of it, and out of all the dogs I have had hands on, he is the only one that I think may.
Both of my dogs are fine with people touching them. It's kind of funny I was just out training with a few people I have never trained with before, they were asking about sable colour so I invited them to come up close and look at the tipping etc on havoc. Havoc was fine, they were definitely not a threat but neither of them would come real close to him. I kind of just figured maybe they were a little worried about GSDs but then i brought Odin out, and after doing a few runs they both went up and pet him It was pretty obvious that they stayed out of havoc's bubble just because he gives off that "vibe" where as Odin is super chill and easy to approach. People that don't know dogs aren't as likely to sense a dogs bubble. Lots of people when I am out hiking just reach out and pet havoc. If they are being relatively friendly I can see his expression soften the moment he decides they are friendly. He ignores them after that point. If people maintain eye contact he escalates just like gagsd describes her dog.
I expect that my dogs are ok with being "pet" by strangers. They are in so many situations where people just do it, that if they acted nasty every time it happened I wouldn't be able to bring them anywhere! That being said if they are on leash and people ask I say no, neither dogs are nuts about being touched by strangers so I never force it on them. If they are off leash and people ask I say that they are welcome to invite my dogs to say hi to them, which both of them always ignore People always look so sad when they get the cold shoulder lol.
Anne's comments linked protectiveness with social aggression. But I have had some dogs who were protective without having very high social aggression.
For example, my first GSD Thorn was very social and comfortable in public and he would show now aggression if I was walking him around or through a crowd. But if I went to a park and sat and read a book, he would go "on duty"--as long as people walked past me and didn't turn and watch me or approach, he would ignore them. But if someone turned to walk toward me, he'd growl, gradually increasing his reaction the more intently the person watched me and the closer the person approached. He started doing this on his own when he was maybe 18 months old, before I ever started doing bitework training with him. He showed similar guarding instincts all of his life. (This was my Am-bred GSD who went on to get his sch3.)
I knew Bodo v Tiekerhook after he came to the US as an older dog--he was a Fero son. I'd say he had social aggression, for sure--but he was also very, very stable (and independent!). It would have been interesting to see what he was like if he was with an owner who he had a strong bond with.
Nope, that's not odd. Jeff had that affect on one of my more protective /aggressive dogs when he was out here visiting. They were buddies within a few seconds. Jeff has no fear and he genuinely likes dogs. Dogs do not miss this and feel comfortable with the very few people who are like this. It is that "feel" that people talk about but few actually have.
The problem is, there are two explanations of Social Aggression, (That I have seen anyway), that people refer to. I am not talking about dominate or rank dogs, as one definition seems to imply. What do you think of as "Social Aggression" Christine?
I think of "social aggression" as dogs with a strong sense of self and a willingness to be aggressive for dominance/rank reasons. I think, too, that it should have a tie in to fight drive.
But I have seen a few dogs who I think were high in social aggression who were not protective of anything other than themselves or their ball/sleeve/toy--the 3 examples I am thinking of were older dogs who had changed owners late in life and who didn't have much sense of partnership with their new owners. They were often hard dogs who had been trained with harsh methods and who didn't live as pets or companions. So, in their new homes they lived as kennel dogs--they might have liked the new owner, but there was no special relationship and not much inclination to protect them. So, this was SA without protectiveness.
I suspect that if you did have a good relationship with a dog like this, one with high SA, that you would fall under their definition of "theirs" and they'd be likely to guard and be protective.
Lol, I gave up a looong time ago on that! People are the worst when I'm hiking, there I can kind of see it, the dogs are off leash. What blows my mind is when people walk up and pet my dogs at agility trials! They are supposed to be dog people, they should know better!
I'm trying to follow this thread but still struggling, lol. I *thought* that a socially aggressive dog would step up if strangers approached the handler or property but now I am reading about dogs that are totally neutral when people try to pet them but have high social aggression? I don't think any of my GSDs have been socially aggressive so I'm trying to learn this, maybe Lisa can show me this weekend.
Nikon is protective of me but I don't know that I'd call him socially aggressive. I think he's more reactive than that, if that makes sense, and that he actually has a very high threshold for biting even though he will alert to something (stiffen, stare) much sooner than any of my other dogs, but I think he's usually waiting for the person or dog to make the first move and then he'll go from there. He will step up, stiffen, growl, bark, etc but it's almost all bluff I think, which is fine because there have been many times where he has appropriately stiffened and grumbled but *not* bit and I didn't want him to bite, I've yet to be in a situation other than protection work and double blind protection simulation where I've needed him to bite someone. This one time a neighbor tried to grab Nikon's collar (without any proper introduction), Nikon kind flipped out barking at him. My neighbor kicked Nikon but Nikon never actually bit him.
I'm trying to follow this thread but still struggling, lol. I *thought* that a socially aggressive dog would step up if strangers approached the handler or property but now I am reading about dogs that are totally neutral when people try to pet them but have high social aggression? I don't think any of my GSDs have been socially aggressive so I'm trying to learn this, maybe Lisa can show me this weekend. Nikon is protective of me but I don't know that I'd call him socially aggressive. I think he's more reactive than that, if that makes sense, and that he actually has a very high threshold for biting (he will step up, stiffen, growl, bark, etc but it's almost all bluff I think, which is fine because there have been many times where he has appropriately stiffened and grumbled but *not* bit and I didn't want him to bite, I've yet to be in a situation other than protection work and double blind protection simulation where I've needed him to bite someone).
When havoc sees a new person he stares them down every time. If they maintain eye contact with him, he escalates. If they look away (which most people naturally do) he doesn't escalate. If they proceed to act friendly towards him he will to an extent drop the HARD stare and ignore them. Some people are dumb and maintain eye contact, and that's where we run into problems! I don't know if that type of behaviour fits into any definition of social aggression but he seeks out eye contact with everyone he sees. If they "submit" he remains aware of them but that's about it.
Territory stuff is a whole different story and he will try to eat someone every time. He doesn't care if you are the nicest person in the world you will not go into his territory!
My dogs are a bit too intimidating to have strangers willingly come up to pet them. KristiM you are fortunate that your dogs will comply with it. I have to manage my dogs so that they are never placed in those scenarios.
It certainly has not come easy with havoc! I can't even tell you how much time I have spent working on this! Reading his signals and more importantly reading people he is around BEFORE they interact with him. It sucks because I do have to be hyper vigilant when I am out with him and if a person looks a little iffy I have to have a very tight grip on the situation. If anything GSDs are versatile. I was told by several people that I would never be able to hike with havoc or do agility because he is just deep down a dog that's always itching to fight. I'm not gonna lie, I have had a few close calls. Thank god for VERY strong obedience.
"Social aggression is the only type of aggression that can be categorized as active aggression. Even though the term active aggression is used frequently, it really only applies here. The reason social aggression is called active aggression is because it really does not require any specific action as a trigger stimulus. Social aggression serves two purposes of biological significance. One is ensuring the even distribution of a species across a given territory by repelling equally strong individuals. And the other is to establish and maintain order in social units such as a pack. Social aggression is always directed at the individual's own kind. In the breeds that were created for police and military service, selection took place that expanded the direction of social aggression to also included the dog's adopted kind, humans. As an example of contrast, in the dog fighting breeds, selection took place to ensure that the social aggression would not include humans.
Let me give you a couple of other reasons why I hold this view. In virtually all older texts describing the police service dog breeds a few points were always made. They were that the dogs show mistrust and aggression against strangers and that they are very devoted and loyal with the family and very loving with children. To me this combination of qualities stem from a very strong closed pack oriented social behavior. That means loyalty and devotion to members in the pack and aggression against all outsiders, even those belonging to the same species.
This form of aggression is not very common in our dogs anymore, because many people find it to be socially unacceptable. Dogs today are supposed to be social and to a certain degree friendly. And while I see nothing wrong with a social dog, I personally also see nothing wrong with a socially aggressive dog. These dogs are not unpredictable menaces to society or vicious animals. They simply have inborn motivations that include this form of aggression. Social aggression is a trainable trait, meaning it can be directed and controlled. Naturally that requires the right handler so that accidents are prevented.
Socially aggressive dogs have an urge to be aggressive towards strangers. This can be controlled and the dog can be taught to tolerate strangers. However, the dog will not become a social or friendly dog with strangers, no matter what type of behavior modification is attempted. The only way this urge to confront a stranger aggressively when not under control would go away is if the stranger meets the confrontation and social order is established. This happens either if the person can subdue the dog and subordinate him or if the person unequivocally submits to the dog. (At that point the person is no longer a stranger but an integrated pack member).
The trend in breeding has been to breed dogs who do not have social aggression. And that may be what many people want. The point I would like to make is that social aggression is nothing that should be made out to be something evil. It is a valuable trait in dogs that are in the right hands. Such dogs do demand a high degree of responsibility and vigilance on the part of the handler. Socially aggressive dogs who are also dominant are difficult to handle and to train and should be in the hands of experts."
Taken from Armin Winkler's site.
These are views of not just Armin, I talked to Helmut Raiser and many other older, very knowledgable dog people ...not very many "real" dog people left but with a few very small exceptions, this is exactly as I have known Social Aggresion in some of my own dogs.
So would a social aggressive dog with a stable temperament act neutral in the presence of his handler (because he is trained to be under control and tolerate people) but probably bite you without hesitation if you just walked up to his fence and reached at him?
I don't know? Havoc will stare everyone down whether I'm there or not (he is never in the care of anyone else.) if I want him to stop I have to give him some kind of incompatible command and I enforce that he listens. If you reached over my fence you would be missing an arm I don't think his obedience is strong enough that I could stop that, unless I could physically stop him. Maybe something I should be working on. (The work never ends!)
Sounds like we're thinking of it similarly, Anne--just most examples of it I've seen in GSDs have not been dogs who were with an owner they were strongly bonded with.
Dogs that I've personally known who are like this:
and a Gento vh Larwin son whose name I don't remember.
I should ask Armin about social aggression if I see him this weekend--that description above sure sounds like what he would say about his Giant Schnauzer males--they are definitely "not to be trifled with."
*And, actually, of the dogs listed... Bodo and Cora were probably the "lowest" in social aggression. Bodo was pretty neutral and didn't go around looking too much for trouble with people. He was mainly interested in whether that dog with you was female and was she in season. Cora was extremely protective/territorial and serious--not so much challenging to be around.
That would be a problem and I think is the main reason people might think SA dogs are also Handler Aggressive. I know if one of my dogs changed homes, and one of the many idiots who think you yank/kick the dogs around before you bond with them, got a hold of them, the dogs would have suddenly been labeled handler aggressive. WHY NOT? They don't know the person and that person starts fighting with them. Dogs don't view corrections from strangers as corrections but for some reason, many people don't get that....not until they are bitten anyway. Come to think of it, they STILL don't get it, even after a few stitches.
I had a dog here some years back that I talked about on other forums. He had been through a number of handlers before he came here. Socially aggressive and dominate but I took my time with him before I ever tried to correct him. He never bit me but the five people before me were more than a little intimidated by him and one of them was bitten. He was really a great dog but I had to first "detox" him , (from all the very bad handling before he got here), and then bond with him. That took much more time than most people would take but it certainly paid off.
Anyway, like I said, a strong bond is essential but most of the dogs I am talking about I raised. So, I never had a problem with that. Pedro, the one I just talked about, was the only dog I have owned who had that tendency but I attribute that to what happened to him before he got here. If I had raised him from a pup, it would have been completely different with him. Even as it was, he became a very loyal dog and very bonded to me. He changed dramatically over the course of a couple of years and I became his person. That dog would have really protected me, I have no doubt . The people who think you can't tell that, have never owned these kinds of dogs. It is clear beyond a doubt.
The dogs you saw were all imported . That requires some real knowledge and feel but sadly, many of these dogs do not get hooked up with the right kind of people.
If he is removed from the "territory" does the aggression stop and is he neutral to the person he was previously barking/growling at? Is he clear-headed as soon as he isn't guarding?
Fear aggression -- the dog is emotionally involved--the fear doesn't go away just by changing the situation (calling the dog out of the kennel/crate/vehicle).
Resource guarding is bad when it is against the owner/family, but it has always been somewhat desirable in a protection dog as long as it is against strangers--see, for example, the object guard exercise in ringsport or KNPV. It's gotten a bad name in recent years because of shelter testing and language that doesn't distinguish between resource guarding against other dogs versus against strangers versus against family members.
If he is removed from the "territory" does the aggression stop and is he neutral to the person he was previously barking/growling at? Is he clear-headed as soon as he isn't guarding?
Ya it's like a light switch. I have had several instances where I am walking with someone and him to my van, he's fine, as soon as we get to the van he turns into a chupacabra! Lol. We walk 5 feet away from the van and that same person can pet him, no problems. (This particular experiment was done with someone he knows and is very familiar with dogs, professional dog trainer.)
One thing that I do find kind of weird/unnerving with the territtory stuff is that he won't bark and carry on, he will just go for someone. Don't know what that's all about?
I was asking Kristi about her boy---mainly because I suspect that he's totally clear and calms toward the stranger significantly as soon as he's out of his "territory" -- which for me shows very clearly that it's not fear aggression.
So would a social aggressive dog with a stable temperament act neutral in the presence of his handler (because he is trained to be under control and tolerate people) but probably bite you without hesitation if you just walked up to his fence and reached at him?
Well, people don't get close to my fence, or my car, without hearing about it. If they come closer when the dogs are warning them not to, I guess they "could" be bitten.
my dog is friendly to my friends but if i am not there she wont let them in my house or yard she will get extremly territorial until i am there nothing will change her mind
so i guess maybe she does have social aggression lol also in the car she might grab a person if they reach in threw the window
she guards things like robocop but you take her away from the guarding object with the same person the aggression is gone
but if she has a bond with someone like my parents or something she will let them in but someone she doesnt know really well she acts like she would rather die than let them in
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