Being "civil" and social aggression?

[onyx'girl]

Originally Posted by VonKromeHaus

Good post!^^^

My own GSD is very friendly, moreso than the average GSD in my opinion. I trust his judgement on people 110% of the time. He has NEVER been wrong about someone.

I want a stable dog that will protect me or the house and car if the situation arises. I am finding that dogs with good nerves are becoming the minority as the general population leans towards dogs with bad nerves IMHO.

I don't understand your post? Who doesn't want a stable dog?
The "general population" doesn't always know what they are getting because they don't research enough about the breed they are purchasing. They want a powerful dog that will protect them and then buy from breeders that are not doing the particular breed right and producing nervebags.
This goes for the dobe's rotties and other breeds that use to be known for their protective instincts but are now known to be of unstable nerve. It isn't because they are 'leaning toward' that, but that is what they are buying unsuspectingly.

[VonKromeHaus]

Originally Posted by onyx'girl

I don't understand your post? Who doesn't want a stable dog?
The "general population" doesn't always know what they are getting because they don't research enough about the breed they are purchasing. They want a powerful dog that will protect them and then buy from breeders that are not doing the particular breed right and producing nervebags.
This goes for the dobe's rotties and other breeds that use to be known for their protective instincts but are now known to be of unstable nerve. It isn't because they are 'leaning toward' that, but that is what they are buying unsuspectingly.

You worded it much better than I did. I meant that the general public tends to have unstable dogs, moreso due to their ignorance where breeders are concerned. They open the paper and but the first puppy they see of whatever breed they choose. So they buy a nervebag of a dog and love it, then they breed it for whatever reason and create more nervebags and the cycle continues. They lean towards a nervy dog due to their ignorance but that is what is the majority now. IME.

[Mrs.K]

Originally Posted by onyx'girl

. They want a powerful dog that will protect them and then buy from breeders that are not doing the particular breed right and producing nervebags.

Yeah, they want that but at the same time, the dog can't be aggressive... or show any trait a dog would show in certain situations.

Oh the irony...

[elisabeth_00117]

Originally Posted by gagsd

Civil dogs bite without equipment. This could be training.
I have seen quite a few Czech dogs that were sharp, quick to aggress, and would bite.

Social aggression is a whole nother ballgame.

This is what I have seen as well. And experience with my little one.

[hunterisgreat]

Originally Posted by Vandal

We have a rather huge shift in mentality nowadays and the dogs are paying for it.

Would you consider a person reaching through a window in your house as threatening? I would. I might consider shooting 'em. Maybe that makes me unstable but a fence is usually surrounding the dog's territory and mine. If someone ignores the warning from the dog and reaches over anyway, I would expect my dog to escalate his response.

Again, this is not about unstable dogs but nowadays, any dog can be made to sound like he is. Years ago, dogs were expected to protect. It was accepted and people RESPECTED the dog's space and territory! I have so much sympathy for what the dog are put through now due to the level of ignorance that exists and the very unreasonable expectations. They are DOGS!

In my experience, generally speaking high sport type guys don't like Jäger. He is a typical Slovak/DDR dog... he is a Brawnson grandson. High prey, but higher civil aggression. Its funny how many people are scared of him, and I mean helpers that have 20+ years experience and are regularly handling dogs at the nationals and world level... these are guys that don't scare easily, and I've watched many of them flinch when jager comes in *clean* for a bark and hold. The best part is, Jäger eats that stuff up so it works out well for us. He knows what genuine fear of him looks like, and it is his favorite dessert. They all hate him... if I had a nickel for every time I heard "make sure you don't loose the leash" or "stay on top of him b/c he's the type of dog that will really tear someone up" or even "he is full of venom". All this for a dog that has *never once* lunged, bite, or snapped at someone on or off the field. His stare makes people get all weirded out. They never say things like that about Katya, and I have a running gag reel of all the times Katya has bitten a helper for hitting her legs, whipping at her, etc. The people who are just enamored with him are a) Police/PPD trainers, b) none-IPO sport folks (KNPV, PSA, etc), and ironically people who have little experience with dogs in general or dogs like him and find that for how scared they were meeting him, now that they feel they are "friends" and trust he won't do anything they love him. Someone told me yesterday they would literally trade all four of their dogs for him. Granted I'm sure if I said yes they wouldn't.

To me, Jäger is the ideal GSD. He isn't an all prey dog that can be taught to bite "for real" but if I knifed him in the side he'd scream foul play and get outta dodge. He's the kinda dog that you stick hit and he likes it and returns it. The kinda dog that just wants to take turns trading blows until we see who is the last standing.

Sadly, Katya, while still very much a nice balance of aggression and prey, under the current judging will always outscore Jäger in IPO. I've been told and "pressured" to do PSA by a bunch of folks with Jäger b/c they say he will be appreciated in that venue like Katya is appreciated in IPO...

still, in my mind, I would change nothing about Jäger, and I'd have katya be more aloof and less openly trusting of strangers. In the IPO world though, Katya is more what is currently sought after

And at the breed survey I did there were dogs on the razors edge of crapping their pants at my "kinda courage test" that were rated "pronounced".. I wanted to be like "Huh?? Would you like to see 'pronounced', b/c I can go get a dog out he trailer and show you what pronounced really looks like'.

I'll make my next video a display of social aggression / civil aggression, turning on and off just like my video about dominance/submission. I've used jager for this many times, showing people how you approach a dog and what real aggression looks like, as well as how approach a dog

[4TheDawgies]

Originally Posted by hunterisgreat

I'll make my next video a display of social aggression / civil aggression, turning on and off just like my video about dominance/submission. I've used jager for this many times, showing people how you approach a dog and what real aggression looks like, as well as how approach a dog

I would personally love to see this! Can't wait!

[lhczth]

You need to train with some different people, Hunter.

We did a demo of this for a 4-H group to show them how the dog can turn on when threatened and then turn off when there is no longer a threat. Most of the kids were more than willing to come down and love on my bitch right after watching her want to eat my helper (some of the adults less so, LOL).

Hunter, I saw your dog's sire at the 2006 regionals and he was very approachable off the field. Nate had him out hanging around after the trial. Kids were visiting him and petting him, other people came up to see him. Very clear dog.

[hunterisgreat]

Originally Posted by lhczth

You need to train with some different people, Hunter.

We did a demo of this for a 4-H group to show them how the dog can turn on when threatened and then turn off when there is no longer a threat. Most of the kids were more than willing to come down and love on my bitch right after watching her want to eat my helper (some of the adults less so, LOL).

Hunter, I saw your dog's sire at the 2006 regionals and he was very approachable off the field. Nate had him out hanging around after the trial. Kids were visiting him and petting him, other people came up to see him. Very clear dog.

Train with different people b/c they are scared of Jäger or because I have to make videos to illustrate things to club members? lol. I'm working hard to get our club in tip top shape. Wait till you guys see the monster of a border collie I work that will be doing is BH & IPO1 as soon as he is old enough (10 months old now).

Jäger is a clone of Stuka with a deeper bark and slightly beefier build. Same temperament though... its just the way people act towards him. This is my opinion, and I've heard this from several folks familiar with Stuka and Brawnson, and from someone who did a ton of helper work with Stuka and has also has worked/still works Jäger a great deal. He is one of the few helpers that isn't scared or always jumpy around Jäger, and I think thats because he can read a dog extremely well. I think because of the way he just silently stares at people it puts them off. Oddly people in public are more comfortable coming up and interacting than seasoned helpers lol. I think its hilarious that this is the way it is.

Our club is a pretty junior new club (started in 2010, I joined in Jan 2011, and I'm the first to IPO1 a dog, and the first to IPO2 a dog, and will be the first to IPO3 a dog). For a while we didn't have a second helper so I had to use club members to work on what I could as a handler, and do the other helper work myself on him. As you can see below, this is a club member, and she is less scared of Jäger nearly any actual helpers I work him on. Obviously if I was at all worried about what he would do I would never put an inexperienced, unprotective-geared person in front of him like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxzwdfx2d98

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxzwdfx2d98

[lhczth]

Find a club that isn't afraid of your dog.

People respect my dogs in the clubs I train with, but they aren't freaking out that my dogs might bite them at any time. Well, except one of the newer helpers who was a bit nervous around Deja the first time he worked her. All I did was told him not to slip the sleeve until I was there. Of course I have always been lucky to train with people who knew and worked dogs like ours.

[lhczth]

I have a tough time watching videos so won't be able to see yours.