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Being "civil" and social aggression?

53K views 262 replies 27 participants last post by  GSDElsa 
#1 ·
I'm looking for some clarification on these two things. The more I try to research it myself, the more I am confused.

1.) Is "social aggression" the same thing as being "civil", essentially?


2.) This is something that must be bred for (like good nerves), and cannot be taught, correct?

3.) Is it fair to say that a dog with "social aggression" is a dominant dog in personality, and one that would actually bite the flesh of a person vs a dog that will *only* bite a sleeve?

4.) Can anyone provide an example of a "civil" /"socially aggressive" dog?
 
#58 · (Edited)
@jag I think social aggression to an extent can be predicted by a breeder. I was told havoc would be like this based on his 3/4 siblings. I believe Lee has quite a bit of experience with these siblings and his sire? As well ad bred a female that is a 1/2 sister to his dam. His 3/4 brother was born about 1 year before him and was described as a little too serious for top sport and would make a better police dog. I believe he is currently an active police dog.

I think a lot of being able to tell what a dog has is about the "vibe" they give off. People very rarely will approach havoc just because he gives that "look" the don't f with me look.

I also think that a dog that is socially aggressive, always upping the ante, doesn't "like" strangers, will bite if challenged etc. should be watched a little more closely (managed) around people. JMO.


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#64 ·
OK, thanks. I was wondering if breeders could really 'know'. I'd rather have the 'heads up' ahead of time to know what to expect if possible. Everything else has been 100% spot on that I was told by my breeder. Anybody know what Czech line dogs bring this trait?
 
#61 ·
Jäger is a Brawnson grandson :) one thing I love about him is his bark is much more intimidating than almost any other GSDs I've seen. Even ones that are also similar in their drives etc. he has a really deep bark for a GSD
 
#60 ·
I knew Boban, seemed like just a lot of hype around the dog because he ripped up a few handlers. He for sure was dominant and stubborn. I met him beyond his prime though and I think he had lived in some pretty pathetic conditions with some pretty crappy handlers.


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#63 · (Edited)
in a litter tho of 5 pups one can be the alpha but in a years time if all pups stay together that same alpha will be over taken by another pup, it shifts a lot

thats why people get 2 female gsd and they think it will work having 1 alpha but when they both mature the beta often turns out to think its the boss lol

I have heard of this happening a few times has anyone else like breeders ?


gags is the no collar grabbing thing cause she was an adult and not use to it? and you are a stranger to her? do you think its not safe to let a stranger grab any protection dogs collar? even tho they seem okay with it one day they just might get annoyied and bite?
 
#72 ·
....
gags is the no collar grabbing thing cause she was an adult and not use to it? and you are a stranger to her? do you think its not safe to let a stranger grab any protection dogs collar? even tho they seem okay with it one day they just might get annoyied and bite?
She did not really respect/like me for more than a month after I got her. She accepted me as the human who fed her and brushed her.... but corrections were a big no-no.
Once I started working her and we had a relationship, she is actually very sensitive to my voice. I am sure I could have demanded obedience and compliance from day 1, but it likely would not have been pretty.
 
#65 · (Edited)
old border patrol lines they say, but again ive met a border patrol bitch that was from those lines that seem less defensive than my girl when being worked so its just so hard to say. She was not mixed with west german or anything.

Better to look at breeders of working dogs and ask for individual dog traits than lines
 
#67 · (Edited)
a couple of thoughts....

Yes - Cordan an Sat - Lord G. - both known for producing social aggression....Brawnson was and produced it - Poor Boban - I think he was so over the top aggressive period....that he was in a constant state of self defense too...

IMO - Handler aggression has NOTHING to do with Social aggression!!!!!!!!!!! There are dogs known to be and pass on handler aggression.....without getting into another major disagreement over certain dogs.....I have both personally seen and personally KNOWN a few dogs who had or at some point exhibited HA....only a few were so extreme they were euthanized....and as I know the owners of an infamous one, and have discussed it....it is my opinion, the dog was just plain crazy with aggression - it was not reactive handler aggression from abuse....

Yes - it is genetic. Some lines will produce it and it is exhibited in a self defense mode...but others are just 'screw you - I will do what I want' handler aggressive.

Social aggression is also genetic. Nessel v haus Antverpa was known for this, and for producing strong aggression. I know a LE Officer who had a dog bred by Chip Weiss in MI who was 2-2 on Nessel....strong strong dog - produced a ton of police dogs. I had a granddaughter of that male, and she was linebred on Lord....bred her...got very strong dogs in the whole litter with social aggression (C litter)...one is a LE border patrol dog, one was in a club where this was highly valued and many offers were made for the dog to be sold as a police dog....the next generation is also showing strong social aggression among other desireable traits. Interestingly, that generation also contains Cordan, so the social aggression aspect is brought forward from both sides - but both parents are stable, social dogs who have never ever shown any inappropriate aggression.

At the Nationals, Pam and Gary Hanarahan looked at Csabre and remarked that rather than Pirol, Gary's old competition dog, she was very very like Nessel - her gr grandfather....while I would never do a 2-2, that breeding on Nessel was done to produce a certain type of dog and the genetics are carrying through strongly.

Lee
 
#70 ·
I wouldn't consider my dog "unsafe" in social situations. But I do keep an extremely close eye on him in cases where there is a bit of confrontation. For example a few months ago was visiting my moms acreage, nearby is a natural area. We were walking the dogs and some dummy was shooting at rocks along the river with a 22. My stepdad told him to take it to the range (sine there were people fishing, walking dogs etc.) Dude got ornery about it, havoc dropped his toy and began to approach the dude in an unhappy way. If I didn't have a good recall and some control in that situation he probably would have been shot:( Was havoc wrong? I don't think so, we were all pretty tense about this **** head with a gun yelling at us! I have had a couple situations like this that could easily have gone south and the attitude around here is if your dog bites someone, your wrong. Period.

Havoc is fine in crowds (ever been to an agility trial?) He plays super nice with my niece and nephew and my grandma:) but does not "like" strangers and is generally quite dominant towards them.

My other dog thinks I am so bad a** that he never needs to worry about it:) And hence I never need to worry about him.


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#74 ·
My highly civil and socially aggressive Brawnson grandson is very handler soft. He would never dream of biting me. We have a level of clarity as to our relationship and what the rules are that I wish I had with my other dogs. He is also the dog I worry the least about in public.
 
#75 ·
Im just curious about what dogs on the dams damline would be the issue? I believe I read on here that belschick Von eicken-bruche was known as being rather nasty. Optikas dusty is line bred 2-3 on him. Is that where his potential "extra temperament" may come from. I do find him a little over the top, but not in a nervy way, in an overly dominant way. Not directed at me... Just everyone else.
 
#77 ·
{gagsd} Yes - it is Chuck Dorneberger Bach.....I have spent some time with him, had him on a lead, did obedience with him.....Dan just handed me a ball and his leash and said - take him out and work with him....you don't do that with a dog who is inappropriately aggressive! Chuck is very powerful in the work...his OB is not so flashy and IMO he lost the championship on the finest points of OB....crisper, straighter sits, not quite enough flash in heeling - but he was the first dog Dan trained, and has been in 6? 7? National events, regionals, 3 WUSV and 1 FCI - always the highest American trained dog...he had a long vacation and I was really impressed with him at the WDC....but as powerful and aggressive as he is, Dan's 4 year old can walk him, he is totally trustworthy in the house with both kids..

As far as Tom - have had 3 litters from Tom sons.....only 2 pups from one litter were a bit too sharp....and pretty much pegged where it came from....the ****** litter was awesome....

{KristiM} Chuck produces the power and aggression....if there is higher level sharpness in a progeny, you have to look to the female side of the pedigree.....and see how it complements his pedigree....the Optika D litter was very sharp, very thin nerved from all discussions I have heard....mixing that with the Crok behind Chuck????? I would think it would go up a notch or two....

{hunter} Exactly - my civil female is VERY in tune with me - no handler aggression at all...heck, I have never needed electric and the prong is nothing more than insurance....she is the most biddable dog and easy to train....but she has a ton of aggression....Bengal same thing, and looks like Kougar, Kira and Kyra are similar....I haven't seen Kira, but Kougar is definitely a dog with indications of obvious social aggression - yet he is also a sweetheart!


I think Handler aggression is a totally different subject.
Lee
 
#80 ·
{KristiM} Chuck produces the power and aggression....if there is higher level sharpness in a progeny, you have to look to the female side of the pedigree.....and see how it complements his pedigree....the Optika D litter was very sharp, very thin nerved from all discussions I have heard....mixing that with the Crok behind Chuck????? I would think it would go up a notch or two....

Lee
Hmm great, power, aggression and thin nerves :eek: lol. Ah well he is who he is. My first dog was so awesome that I figured I would get another one with some more umph. :rofl:
 
#81 ·
:rofl: NO. He is not. He has gotten better as he has aged, but especially as a puppy I would have injured him before a correction got through to him. He can be VERY responsive, and with most things where I have used positive reinforcement he is super quick and willing. But if he don't wanna he doesn't. I use the e collar now for our problem areas and it has been a very good tool for us.
 
#92 · (Edited)
There have always been GSDs with social aggression and years ago, many more than there are now. It is a required component of fight drive but since so many now seem to lack the basic understanding of what a GSD is supposed to be, ( and some will argue there is no such thing as fight drive), there are topics like the one mentioned on the PDB, questioning why anyone would breed for it. The ignorance in that question is amazing.

Social aggression is not trained and it can be a case where SchH does not put it on display at all. Not the way most of the training is conducted now anyway. Of course, you have to have the nerves to go with this trait, as I have seen dogs who want to protect their person and property and are not accepting of strangers , yet lack the heart and nerve to really follow through when necessary. Mostly, those dogs are defending themselves.

Social aggression, most have not seen, even if they think they have. There is a CLEAR desire in the dog to protect his handler. It is quite obvious and is not "self defense". The property of the handler is also off limits but these dogs can and are VERY good with members of their own family. IMO, this is a part of all of it. The intense bond is part of the protectiveness. The ones I have and do own, are extremely affectionate with me, very good with children and would never dream of biting me.

Civil is maybe what Lee said and goes hand in hand with social aggression. These are dogs who will protect without the benefit of training. It is in their genetics and when the rest is there, have the heart and nerve to take on a man, not just a sleeve.
Most people, believe a dog must be trained to protect. That is just hog wash, although it may be a case soon where that will be required, since so many people do not seem to want, nor do they understand this part of a GSD. A GSD was always known as a dog who would protect. There were not people everywhere training SchH, so, that reputation did not just come from there.

Also, it is extremely important that these dogs do not end up with people who over-react to every little thing. Almost always, it is a case where they show protective tendencies early in their development and this is where living with the right handler becomes very important. They mature in ways that few understand now, since many bloodlines behave like puppies well into their second year. The SA pups I have raised, show protectiveness early and tend to "mellow out" with age. It is just about opposite of what most people are now experiencing with their GSDs.

In that regard, what Hunter just said absolutely applies. Everyone who has trained one dog suddenly becomes an "expert" and they toss out these definitions without experience or knowledge.
 
#93 ·
Thanks for the posts! I was seriously starting to doubt myself and general logic because of some of the posts on this forum. Havoc showed protectiveness and lots of territorial behaviour early. According to many that is ALWAYS a sign of an insecure dog, which is just not what he is. I was starting to get very confused, I know to take every opinion with a grain of salt but there is an overwhelming amount of people that insist what I have is an insecure dog.

On the flip side I could describe Odin and everyone would say he has a perfect temperament and nerves but I KNOW that as nice of a dog as he is when the chips are down, the confidence isn't there. (Disclaimer, Odin is still the greatest dog in the world!)
 
#96 ·
Ok, one more question;) Are nerves and confidence very similar in their definitions?

(I know that people will have differing opinions but to me they seem to be very similar in definition?)
 
#97 ·
There is a common misconception that when a dog shows any aggression or "defense" as many label it, the dog is in fear and protecting itself...... :hammer:

There are too many nuances to behavior to label aggression with one rubber stamp....

Lee
 
#108 ·
There is a common misconception that when a dog shows any aggression or "defense" as many label it, the dog is in fear and protecting itself...... :hammer:

There are too many nuances to behavior to label aggression with one rubber stamp....

Lee
I think this is true to a point. I don't think enough information is provided to describe the scenario.

If I were to have the UPS man walk down my drive (to my door) my dogs will bark. The closer to the house the more aggressive the bark. At that point, that tells me nothing about the dog's aggression levels. If the same UPS man walks past my house and walks directly to the fence where the dogs are, THEN what my dogs do tells me what type of aggression they are exhibiting.

To say my young dog was barking at the UPS man, doesn't say enough about the dog's behavior to form an opinion on the dog's reaction to the UPS man.
 
#98 · (Edited)
I think "nerves" has such a negative connotation to most people.

But I sometimes use it just as a descriptive. A "thin nerved" dog is more like a Thoroughbred horse.... easily stimulated by a leaf blowing or a bag in the wind. Can be ridden with a very light hand and aids.

Too "thick" of nerves and you end up with an old plodding school horse that doesn't respond to anything. Kick the sides off of him and he barely moves.
 
#99 ·
I thought that was more along the lines of low threshold vs high threshold? I always thought nerves had more to do with HOW the dogs reacts vs when he reacts. Or are thresholds and nerves more similar than nerves and confidence?
 
#101 ·
I considered Ari a medium-high threshold dog. If someone eyeballs him in a challenging manner, he will stand up, give strong eye contact, then lean forward, then escalate .... or de-escalate if the person "gives."
His brother will immediately offer aggression.

Others have told me they consider him low threshold because all it takes is a stare.
<shrug>
 
#105 ·
In my mind, locking eyes *should* trigger a response. Thats the first step of aggression. just a glancing look should not, but prolonged staring should. The dog that doesn't react to prolonged staring is not socially/civil aggressive enough and they are submitting/going into avoidance at the challenge, or are just so far bred away from being aggressive/open to challenging a human that they just don't respond to posture from a human.
 
#102 ·
To me that would be describing thresholds and possibly nerves? Both dogs react at the same threshold? Different reactions, nerves?

(The reason I ask is I am looking for different ways to describe good nerves. I am strongly considering a working line Aussie for my next dog and when you talk about nerves to non gsd people you get a blank stare lol. I have met several working line Aussies with IMO weak nerves, so I want I make sure I am asking in a way that I get the right answers. I know that has nothing to do with this thread:) but I think the question is still relevant.)


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#104 ·
Lol I know totally OT:) my Aussie was half show half working, she was awesome! I really miss having a spunky lil bunny butt running around! It won't be for several years but I am going to start researching now:) I have met some that were blow your socks off amazing and some that were overly nervy. (I think a little nervy is pretty common for a lot of the working herding lines.) I want a dog that can compete at the higher levels of agility AND be an awesome companion:) If my GSDs were 30 pounds lighter they could do it lol.


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