Being "civil" and social aggression?

[Liesje]

So would a social aggressive dog with a stable temperament act neutral in the presence of his handler (because he is trained to be under control and tolerate people) but probably bite you without hesitation if you just walked up to his fence and reached at him?

[KristiM]

Originally Posted by Liesje

So would a social aggressive dog with a stable temperament act neutral in the presence of his handler (because he is trained to be under control and tolerate people) but probably bite you without hesitation if you just walked up to his fence and reached at him?

I don't know? Havoc will stare everyone down whether I'm there or not (he is never in the care of anyone else.) if I want him to stop I have to give him some kind of incompatible command and I enforce that he listens. If you reached over my fence you would be missing an arm I don't think his obedience is strong enough that I could stop that, unless I could physically stop him. Maybe something I should be working on. (The work never ends!)

[BlackthornGSD]

Sounds like we're thinking of it similarly, Anne--just most examples of it I've seen in GSDs have not been dogs who were with an owner they were strongly bonded with.

Dogs that I've personally known who are like this:

Bodo v Tiekerhook
Casch v Saltzalblick
Arko ad Langen Furt Arko an der langen Furt
Cliff vom Schwedenbrunnen V Cliff vom Schwedenbrunnen
Cora v Granit Rose Cora von Granit Rose
Dorian vd Konigshohle

and a Gento vh Larwin son whose name I don't remember.

I should ask Armin about social aggression if I see him this weekend--that description above sure sounds like what he would say about his Giant Schnauzer males--they are definitely "not to be trifled with."

*And, actually, of the dogs listed... Bodo and Cora were probably the "lowest" in social aggression. Bodo was pretty neutral and didn't go around looking too much for trouble with people. He was mainly interested in whether that dog with you was female and was she in season. Cora was extremely protective/territorial and serious--not so much challenging to be around.

[Jack's Dad]

Originally Posted by KristiM

If you reached over my fence you would be missing an arm I don't think his obedience is strong enough that I could stop that, unless I could physically stop him. Maybe something I should be working on. (The work never ends!)

So what do you think that is Kristi?
Social aggression, resource guarding, protection, FA or something else.
This thread is confusing for us amateurs.

Or maybe he is just being a jerk.

[KristiM]

Originally Posted by Jack's Dad

So what do you think that is Kristi?
Social aggression, resource guarding, protection, FA or something else.
This thread is confusing for us amateurs.

Or maybe he is just being a jerk.

I don't know lol! Is territorial aggression different? He could just be a jerk

He does seem to have a VERY CONCRETE idea of what is his territory and WILL NOT tolerate people crossing that line. To me this is a huge pain, as this includes my van. I don't really think it is something that I can correct him out of, so all I do is manage it

[Vandal]

Anne--just most examples of it I've seen in GSDs have not been dogs who were with an owner they were strongly bonded with.

That would be a problem and I think is the main reason people might think SA dogs are also Handler Aggressive. I know if one of my dogs changed homes, and one of the many idiots who think you yank/kick the dogs around before you bond with them, got a hold of them, the dogs would have suddenly been labeled handler aggressive. WHY NOT? They don't know the person and that person starts fighting with them. Dogs don't view corrections from strangers as corrections but for some reason, many people don't get that....not until they are bitten anyway. Come to think of it, they STILL don't get it, even after a few stitches.

I had a dog here some years back that I talked about on other forums. He had been through a number of handlers before he came here. Socially aggressive and dominate but I took my time with him before I ever tried to correct him. He never bit me but the five people before me were more than a little intimidated by him and one of them was bitten. He was really a great dog but I had to first "detox" him , (from all the very bad handling before he got here), and then bond with him. That took much more time than most people would take but it certainly paid off.

Anyway, like I said, a strong bond is essential but most of the dogs I am talking about I raised. So, I never had a problem with that. Pedro, the one I just talked about, was the only dog I have owned who had that tendency but I attribute that to what happened to him before he got here. If I had raised him from a pup, it would have been completely different with him. Even as it was, he became a very loyal dog and very bonded to me. He changed dramatically over the course of a couple of years and I became his person. That dog would have really protected me, I have no doubt . The people who think you can't tell that, have never owned these kinds of dogs. It is clear beyond a doubt.

The dogs you saw were all imported . That requires some real knowledge and feel but sadly, many of these dogs do not get hooked up with the right kind of people.

[BlackthornGSD]

If he is removed from the "territory" does the aggression stop and is he neutral to the person he was previously barking/growling at? Is he clear-headed as soon as he isn't guarding?

Fear aggression -- the dog is emotionally involved--the fear doesn't go away just by changing the situation (calling the dog out of the kennel/crate/vehicle).

Resource guarding is bad when it is against the owner/family, but it has always been somewhat desirable in a protection dog as long as it is against strangers--see, for example, the object guard exercise in ringsport or KNPV. It's gotten a bad name in recent years because of shelter testing and language that doesn't distinguish between resource guarding against other dogs versus against strangers versus against family members.

[Vandal]

I view that as all the same thing. Territory falls under Social Aggression.

[Vandal]

So would a social aggressive dog with a stable temperament act neutral in the presence of his handler (because he is trained to be under control and tolerate people) but probably bite you without hesitation if you just walked up to his fence and reached at him?

Well, people don't get close to my fence, or my car, without hearing about it. If they come closer when the dogs are warning them not to, I guess they "could" be bitten.

[KristiM]

Originally Posted by BlackthornGSD

If he is removed from the "territory" does the aggression stop and is he neutral to the person he was previously barking/growling at? Is he clear-headed as soon as he isn't guarding?

Ya it's like a light switch. I have had several instances where I am walking with someone and him to my van, he's fine, as soon as we get to the van he turns into a chupacabra! Lol. We walk 5 feet away from the van and that same person can pet him, no problems. (This particular experiment was done with someone he knows and is very familiar with dogs, professional dog trainer.)

One thing that I do find kind of weird/unnerving with the territtory stuff is that he won't bark and carry on, he will just go for someone. Don't know what that's all about?