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Old 11-01-2012, 07:55 PM   #41 (permalink)
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After you put Zenzy down, didn't you say you thought the GD was the one causing all the issues?

We are not talking 10 years ago, we are talking maybe two years. Now you are an expert. Yes you can temporarily shove dogs together without them showing their true colors, for an afternoon. Dogs take a few months to settle in before deciding to adjust the situation to suit them.

This puppy had been in a fight, just as she would have been reaching sexual maturity. They say with females spaying doesn't matter, or if it does, a spayed bitch can become more reactive. That fight was with a bitch in her pack. That screams of same-sex aggression, not dog aggression or leash aggression, or even re-directed aggression.

If it was re-directed aggression, what was the initial object of her aggression? I mean the pit/mal fight.

Maybe same-sex aggression will never play into your pack, but it really only takes the right brush up, or walk in front and it can be on. So if you don't have two people to separate the maligator from the land sharks, what is your plan, that is, if they do decide they no longer jell? I mean, you saw the force with which she redirected her aggression today, and will she re-direct to you, if you manage to get the other dogs out of her way?

It really doesn't help to avoid the truth. GSDs are a breed that is prone to same sex aggression. Just like pitties are a breed that are prone to dog aggression. If mals are a breed very likely to have reactive aggression and handler aggression, you are setting up a pack like that gal down south, the vet tech who borded a second cane corso, along with her cane corso and pit bull and whatever else. That girl didn't lack in knowledge about dogs, but she is dead all the same.
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Old 11-01-2012, 08:15 PM   #42 (permalink)
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After you put Zenzy down, didn't you say you thought the GD was the one causing all the issues?

I was looking for answers, looking for what I could have done better. The GD did run her over on occassion but that wasn't the case on the day that happened. I was questioning everything I did for a very long time and came up with so many different scenarios and theories it's not even funny. Matter of fact is that she did become highly reactive and aggressive after she was spayed.

We are not talking 10 years ago, we are talking maybe two years. Now you are an expert. Yes you can temporarily shove dogs together without them showing their true colors, for an afternoon. Dogs take a few months to settle in before deciding to adjust the situation to suit them.

I am not an expert. However, I do know how to handle a pack, know how to separate dogs and know how to pair them up. I've been keeping packs for years and years and that is why my boss always gave me the big packs at work because she knew that I can handle them just fine. It is interesting how all of a sudden, because of a single dog and incident, all of a sudden you are a complete failure and everything else you have done, doesn't matter at all. Because that single dog, will ALWAYS be pulled out by you. I've handled 15-20 dogs at the same time, within the same pen, Selzer. I am sure I can handle four dogs at home.

This puppy had been in a fight, just as she would have been reaching sexual maturity. They say with females spaying doesn't matter, or if it does, a spayed bitch can become more reactive. That fight was with a bitch in her pack. That screams of same-sex aggression, not dog aggression or leash aggression, or even re-directed aggression.

If it was re-directed aggression, what was the initial object of her aggression? I mean the pit/mal fight.

The pit went after ma, not the other way around.

Maybe same-sex aggression will never play into your pack, but it really only takes the right brush up, or walk in front and it can be on. So if you don't have two people to separate the maligator from the land sharks, what is your plan, that is, if they do decide they no longer jell? I mean, you saw the force with which she redirected her aggression today, and will she re-direct to you, if you manage to get the other dogs out of her way?

She redirected yesterday and I think I've already said that I have two separate yards and that I can separate so they don't even get to see each other. I've got a kennel in the basement. If they no longer jell, she goes into the kennel. Upstairs is separated with a door. Right now we have the door unhooked but it's not an issue to put the door back into place, so she doesn't get upstairs. Like I said so many times. I can separate all three females if I have to. That is why I wanted this house, that is what I was looking for from the beginning. Two separate yards. I can have a kennel in the garage, the Sunroom, the Basement and crates upstairs and if necessary build a kennelrun in the backyard.

It really doesn't help to avoid the truth. GSDs are a breed that is prone to same sex aggression. Just like pitties are a breed that are prone to dog aggression. If mals are a breed very likely to have reactive aggression and handler aggression, you are setting up a pack like that gal down south, the vet tech who borded a second cane corso, along with her cane corso and pit bull and whatever else. That girl didn't lack in knowledge about dogs, but she is dead all the same.
Again, I am not avoiding the truth. I am aware of what could happen between the girls and I am taking pre-cautions already.
Comparing me to someone like that Vet Tech. Seriously? Are you the only one that can keep multiple dogs without getting killed?

Really Selzer? Really? Jeez...
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Old 11-01-2012, 08:50 PM   #43 (permalink)
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I've actually heard from a couple of different trainers that I work with that it's not uncommon for dogs to go for the front legs first and try to debilitate their opponent and then go for the throat or belly... I don't know how true this is or if it's breed specific but I've encountered it with Sasha and Scarlett in our own pack and also another of my friends whose dog almost died after he got into a fight with another dog and the dog broke one of his legs and severely injured the other. He almost died because the infection was so deep in both legs. So I wouldn't automatically jump to the Mal as the aggressor as it seems different dogs do have different fighting "strategies."
My shepherd and my mom's bulldog wrestle this way, she is like a ufc fighter shooting a leg and bullrushing....Once she has him off balance she flips him upside down and holds him down by the throat....He will be on his back with all his feet up in the guard position....lmao

Her technique worked well, when a much larger male lab mix decided he wanted to fight, she had him upside down and had his throat when I pulled her off....

IMO your right, just because a dog went for a foot doesn't mean it wasn't fighting seriously...
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Old 11-01-2012, 08:50 PM   #44 (permalink)
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to give you a visual how I can separate my dogs:

Frontyard:


Backyard:


Green Room that is not being used and can be turned into another dog room if necessary:


The door to upstairs that we unhooked because we wanted it more open:


Separation of the yards


Upstairs:


Sunroom:


All in all, I have ten crates and four dogs. You think that's enough to keep these four, seriously super aggressive Monsters, separated and from killing me?
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Old 11-01-2012, 09:10 PM   #45 (permalink)
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She didn't go after Nala and Indra. She re-directed. There is a difference.


[/B]
Just my personal opinion based on experience....the re directed aggression can cause a major fight. All it will take is one of the other dogs not liking the one dog in their face. My guess is that it would be a 3 dog fight if it ever got that far. Just be careful and do what you think is best
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Old 11-01-2012, 09:15 PM   #46 (permalink)
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I think everyone acknowledges your ability with dogs and that you have available areas to separate if necessary. What I see from reading the posts is that people are just concerned that if the situation turns bad in a heartbeat someone or some dog could get seriously hurt. The separate areas and containment may be too late. Hoping all goes well and that all this is for naught...
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Old 11-01-2012, 09:17 PM   #47 (permalink)
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You have four full-grown dogs running together like a pack. I do not have 10-11 full grown bitches running together like a pack. I might let two jaunt together for a little time. No free-for-alls here.

What you do for your work is not the same. These are dogs that are not at home, nor with their owners/packs. There is no resource-guarding/territorial aggression. Chances are they are spayed/neutered which takes out a lot of the hormonal stuff. These are dogs conditioned to being a part of a doggy daycare. It is like you afternoon jaunt with a friend's dogs. Not the same as being at home with the people one might want to resource guard, and the pack that one might want to change the order of.

A few times I have had a lapse in security and left a latch of a gate not completely latched. Or had a dog break out of a crate. Sometimes there is no issues, lots of sniffing and maybe running back and forth, etc, and I can call them and put them back where they belong. Other times, I have had a lot of noise but no teeth, and I was able to grab and shove them where they belong. And a very few times I have had fights. The fights are bad. It is extremely hard to separate two 65-75 pound bitches when they are intent on killing each other. The heart races and it is frankly very dangerous. Without my gates, I would be in trouble. Grabbing the collar is not the answer been-there-done-that-got-the-stitches.

No way would I be able to crate one of the bitches if they are fighting. The only way I can stop them is to grab a tail, pull and get a gate between them, and then use the gate and everything else in my power to stop the assault.

It is also my experience that if you have a group out, they do not just sit on the sidelines and watch. they jump right in. And yes, you can grab the ones on the fringes, and direct them into a crate before dealing with the deadly ones.

My question was not what you would do AFTER your dogs get into a major fight, but how would you stop it if you are home alone. My strategy is only one-two dogs out at the same time, and having gates that I can get between them with, and thus separate them. And it isn't easy, but I have managed so far. With two people, it is whole lot easier.

What would you have done if you were walking Indra, Nala, and Ma, alone, and Ma redirected aggression on the other two bitches? I walk one bitch at a time usually. Once I went to the vet with a pair of bitches, and walking out, one sort of huffed at the other, and I whipped two muzzles out of my pocket and zipped them on them in light speed. I had the girls at the vets both rolling in laughter and impressed that I was able to slap them on so fast. I just don't want to clean wounds and pay for stitches and drains. With one dog, that isn't an issue.

No, I am not the only person who can have multiple intact dogs. But most of the people I know who have multiple bitches kept as pets running together in the home, most of them have had serious bitch fights and have had to adjust everything in order to manage them.
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Old 11-01-2012, 09:32 PM   #48 (permalink)
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That is one awesome tree house. Maybe Ma could live up there? LOL
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Old 11-01-2012, 09:56 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Having "ability" to manage dogs includes knowing your limits and being honest with yourself about them.
You have a ticking time bomb there, not just one dog, and for the umpteenth dozen time, nobody called your dog a "Monster", except you.
I might add, as mentioned before our dogs get into tiffs on a semi regular basis and it takes full-time management, and it gets darned old. But none of ours are monsters, either. They are just dogs, doing what dogs do.
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:00 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Having "ability" to manage dogs includes knowing your limits and being honest with yourself about them.
You have a ticking time bomb there, not just one dog, and for the umpteenth dozen time, nobody called your dog a "Monster", except you.
I might add, as mentioned before our dogs get into tiffs on a semi regular basis and it takes full-time management, and it gets darned old. But none of ours are monsters, either. They are just dogs, doing what dogs do.
And if our dogs get into it, we are not going to put them down for being dogs (or bitches). Not unless they are more dead than alive due to the fight.
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Last edited by selzer; 11-01-2012 at 10:07 PM.
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