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Old 10-13-2012, 01:21 AM   #21 (permalink)
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My best friend has a WGSL SchH1 female imported from Germany at about age 2. This dog has a great temperament and I absolutely adore her. My friend has a neighbor who has a Great Pyrenees female (I do NOT like this dog and didn't from the day I met it, sorry I'm judgmental based on experience ). Anyway, this friend walks her dog in the neighborhood daily and goes right past the home of my friend. I have been there on numerous occasions when she's gone by and we've chatted (I know this woman as well, we all have kids the same age). Anyway her GP has ALWAYS done the sneaky lip snarl thing. Everytime I've seen the dog I've seen her do it at least once but usually more. I warned my girlfriend that one day her dog is going have enough and will correct the GP. I explained that the sneaky snarl is the dog equivalent of flipping her the bird.
Anyway, sure enough one day the GSD was outside (this time with the son who is 20yo and not a kid, but not the mom in charge either) and the GSD had it and flattened the GP and gave her a pinch bite to the snout (shut that smart mouth right up!). Anyway, my girlfriend was stunned that she did this "unprovoked" and I said are you kidding, that dog has been provoking her for as long as I've known it, I'm amazed she had this much patience!
Needless to say her son finally listened to me when I told him not let down his guard if that dog was in the vicinity. I explained that the GSD was a SchH1 and understood the command PLATZ and they better use it. No problems since, at least from their dog. The GP on the other hand has had issues with other dogs in the neighborhood.

Anthony, as to your dog inciting this behavior. Sometimes the unconfident dogs come off as sneaky to other dogs. It sounds like you have done a lot of work and training with Kira. I would try working on putting her in a down position facing you and making eye contact with you when you see other dogs approaching in this type of situation. I have a client with a dog that is timid and tends to set other dogs off for whatever reason (I'm not there so can't say for sure) so I have instructed her to work on her down under distraction gradually getting up to the level of distraction you would encounter on a walk in the neighborhood. I showed her how to make it a really fun, fast thing. When she sees another dog/handler approaching she quickly backs up and calls the dog to front and then tells her to down (rewarding with really high value treats for inspiration). She may end up doing 4-5 here/downs to distract her dog while the other dog passes but whatever it takes. After a while her dog began the scenario on it's own when another dog came on the scene. She now does it just as the other dog really gets in range and still makes it fun and then moves on with minimal interruption to the walk.
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Last edited by bocron; 10-13-2012 at 01:31 AM.
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Old 10-13-2012, 08:05 AM   #22 (permalink)
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My best friend has a WGSL SchH1 female imported from Germany at about age 2. This dog has a great temperament and I absolutely adore her. My friend has a neighbor who has a Great Pyrenees female (I do NOT like this dog and didn't from the day I met it, sorry I'm judgmental based on experience ). Anyway, this friend walks her dog in the neighborhood daily and goes right past the home of my friend. I have been there on numerous occasions when she's gone by and we've chatted (I know this woman as well, we all have kids the same age). Anyway her GP has ALWAYS done the sneaky lip snarl thing. Everytime I've seen the dog I've seen her do it at least once but usually more. I warned my girlfriend that one day her dog is going have enough and will correct the GP. I explained that the sneaky snarl is the dog equivalent of flipping her the bird.
Anyway, sure enough one day the GSD was outside (this time with the son who is 20yo and not a kid, but not the mom in charge either) and the GSD had it and flattened the GP and gave her a pinch bite to the snout (shut that smart mouth right up!). Anyway, my girlfriend was stunned that she did this "unprovoked" and I said are you kidding, that dog has been provoking her for as long as I've known it, I'm amazed she had this much patience!
Needless to say her son finally listened to me when I told him not let down his guard if that dog was in the vicinity. I explained that the GSD was a SchH1 and understood the command PLATZ and they better use it. No problems since, at least from their dog. The GP on the other hand has had issues with other dogs in the neighborhood.

Anthony, as to your dog inciting this behavior. Sometimes the unconfident dogs come off as sneaky to other dogs. It sounds like you have done a lot of work and training with Kira. I would try working on putting her in a down position facing you and making eye contact with you when you see other dogs approaching in this type of situation. I have a client with a dog that is timid and tends to set other dogs off for whatever reason (I'm not there so can't say for sure) so I have instructed her to work on her down under distraction gradually getting up to the level of distraction you would encounter on a walk in the neighborhood. I showed her how to make it a really fun, fast thing. When she sees another dog/handler approaching she quickly backs up and calls the dog to front and then tells her to down (rewarding with really high value treats for inspiration). She may end up doing 4-5 here/downs to distract her dog while the other dog passes but whatever it takes. After a while her dog began the scenario on it's own when another dog came on the scene. She now does it just as the other dog really gets in range and still makes it fun and then moves on with minimal interruption to the walk.


I think you have nailed this one. It's no secret that she's timid. Unconfident around other dogs is also very accurate. She's been this way since a pup.

So basically, what I suspected was right...

Kira is insecure, and timid around older, larger dogs.
She sets them off, by flipping them the bird (little b*tch has an attitude) LOL

I'll start working on the down in front you mention. That should be easy for her.

A while back, Kira did something, and a member here mentioned that I should be aware that Kira doesn't start something she can't finish. This seems like a perfect example of what she was talking about.

In light of this behavior, I've made it my business to keep Kira away from any other dogs. As you see in my videos. we're always alone. I don't want to chance it anymore. She's gonna get seriously hurt one day.

Not sure if you saw an older thread of mine....

About six weeks ago, I took Kira to her usual play area. It's a vast, waterfront open field. She loves it there, and gets her exercise. On this particular day, there happen to be a few loose dogs on the other side of the park. I didn't think anything of it
Long story short.... Kira sees an imposing GSD, goes into flight mode, now Kira suddenly becomes prey to three dogs.
End result had her with punctures on her side. She never put up a fight. She ran under a parked vehicle, and was conered by these three dogs, taking snaps at her from under the car.

That was it for me. I had seen enough at that point. That whole scene was not normal. Completely unprovoked. At that point, I decided that she will never bee off leash in the presence of another dog again.

Last edited by Anthony8858; 10-13-2012 at 08:13 AM.
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:57 AM   #23 (permalink)
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I like the title to your post, did you read the Calming Signals book? I see Molly giving calming signals to both people and dogs. We've experienced very similar situations with Molly. However Molly seems to have a more dominant personality vs timid, it's fun when she's with dogs that she likes because she "gets the party started" like that Pink song. So there are times I feel another dog that thinks itself dominant will try prove itself with Molly. There are four dogs in our neighborhood that when seeing Molly for the first time immediately submitted, laid down and showed their belly and they are friends forever now.

There are some dogs that will bark and lunge at her from across the street. With these dogs, I don't think it something about Molly, but uneducated owners with poorly socialized dogs.

Other times, I think Molly picks up some negative feeling from the dog's owner. Then the stranger dog senses it's owner's and Molly's negative feelings and reacts. There are times when some off-leash dogs will approach Molly, and the meet is fine until the owner sees that their dog is meeting a GSD, panics and says come, come, come. At that point there may be lunging by both dogs. The few times we've met the runaway dog that couldn't wait for the owner to take him out, Molly does really well with those dogs, and they are fine with her, eventually ignoring her.

Then other times, as others have suggested I think it may be her size, coloring, smell. Last Thanksgiving we had a negative low tide during the day at the beaches nearby. It was warm and you just imaging all the people with their guests at the beach looking for sea urchins, starfish etc. Also so many people walking their dogs off-leash (even though illegal at these beaches). We noticed some unexplained bad behavior towards Molly from many dogs, even when she bowed down into the play position. Big snarly teeth from Collies, Border collies, Goldens, other various mixes. And of course when there was an incident the passerbys thought the GSD initiated the lunging.

If we want Molly to meet a new dog, or if I think there may be some aggression by either party, we have Molly go into the "down" position.
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Old 10-13-2012, 12:37 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I have seen it with Border Collies as they tend to stare at other dogs and the contrast of the blue eyes accentuates it. When I had a reactive dog I mentioned to other people when their dog was staring at mine as it is likely to get their dog attacked.

It was a trigger for my dog and my responsibility to manage but people should know when their dogs shoot off signals to other dogs. I usually sit my dogs when a rude dog approaches (even when a charging dog came at us) and put myself between my dog and the approaching dog. Sitting is a calming signal.
Interesting!

My dog (5yo male GSD) also usually reacts strongly to another dog staring at him, esp. when they demo an aggressive posture.

Your dog (and you!) must have a very strong sit/stay if he/she will keep it and allow you to get and stay in front of them when another dog is running at them!

We work on it a lot, but not so much so far with my guy. He has to be out front meeting the challenge of the other dog. Maybe it is me and I am just not quick enough to stay in front of him between him and the other dog! Heh! Heh!
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Old 10-13-2012, 12:46 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Anthony, I also want to stress that you need to be Kira's advocate in social situations. Make sure as you are working on her down with focus on you that the other dog is going to go on by. When my client was first working on it we practiced with me walking by with "safe" dogs on leash. The client dog needed to have it done a few times with a nice outcome in order to build some confidence before going out into the real world. The last thing you want to do is have her trust your assessment of a dog and that dog go after her and make it ten times worse. I know you have the best intentions with her so am not concerned with your understanding, just want to make sure you know that you want to set her up to succeed from the get go. At this point what you have to teach her is to trust you more than she fears the situation, it can be done but it must be slow and steady.
Also, to build her confidence in general have you looked into teaching her tracking? There may be a good class near you, or a way to do some private lessons to learn the activity and then pursue it on your own. It is a real confidence builder in our experience.
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Old 10-13-2012, 12:49 PM   #26 (permalink)
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How many times did we hear the tale of: "But he's never done that before..."???
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Old 10-13-2012, 01:27 PM   #27 (permalink)
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We were actually talking about that "he's never done that before" at our NAPWDA seminar/certification when one of the dogs had a bowel movement in the building.........we decided we needed a t-shirt!
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Old 10-13-2012, 02:05 PM   #28 (permalink)
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About six weeks ago, I took Kira to her usual play area. It's a vast, waterfront open field. She loves it there, and gets her exercise. On this particular day, there happen to be a few loose dogs on the other side of the park. I didn't think anything of it
Long story short.... Kira sees an imposing GSD, goes into flight mode, now Kira suddenly becomes prey to three dogs.
End result had her with punctures on her side. She never put up a fight. She ran under a parked vehicle, and was conered by these three dogs, taking snaps at her from under the car.

That was it for me. I had seen enough at that point. That whole scene was not normal. Completely unprovoked. At that point, I decided that she will never bee off leash in the presence of another dog again.
Seriously!? They actually attacked Kira and drew blood? This may be partially Kira's fault for running or throwing out bad signals, but that's no excuse for the other three dogs involved in that attack. Sounds like it's even more the other dogs fault. Kira ran, but those dogs bit. It's stuff like this that's ruining Kira's confidence around other dogs.

Were those three dogs owned by the same people or together in the same group? What happened after the attack? I hope at the very least they paid her vet bills.
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Old 10-13-2012, 02:35 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Seriously!? They actually attacked Kira and drew blood? This may be partially Kira's fault for running or throwing out bad signals, but that's no excuse for the other three dogs involved in that attack. Sounds like it's even more the other dogs fault. Kira ran, but those dogs bit. It's stuff like this that's ruining Kira's confidence around other dogs.

Were those three dogs owned by the same people or together in the same group? What happened after the attack? I hope at the very least they paid her vet bills.
Yes they did.
She had stitches, and ended up with an abscess. Was a three week ordeal. My vet cooperated and only hit me for a few hundred.
Other owners were baffled, saying that their dogs "never did that".

I've gone back there during dog park hours, and have witnessed those dogs playing nicely with all dogs.
I can't say this enough times..... Kira's body language invites the aggression in certain dogs.
I've noticed that she doesn't get this from younger dogs.

As far as her confidence goes, yes it's these incidents that have ruined her confidence. But if you ask me, I strongly believe it was a predisposed condition. It was already there. I just didn't know enough to deal with it.


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Old 10-13-2012, 03:14 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Did those owners ever offer to pay for the bill?

Seriously Anthony. It's not all Kira. At some point you have to acknowledge that there are some sucky dog owners out there as well.

One of my girls got harassed by a puppy. The owner noticed it but didn't do anything about it. My girl gave the pup a warning sign, the pup continued to harass my girl, my girl snapped at the puppy. It was a quick bite and unfortunately she got the pup right beneath her eye. It went so fast, I didn't even see half of it and had my back turned towards one of my other dogs.
However, I immediately said that I'm going to pay the bill, since it was my dog, even though the pup provoked it in the first place.

How many times did you see these dogs with other dogs?

It's not only Kira's fault. Period. Do NOT always blame your own dog. You make her sound worse than she actually is and then you are all surprised when people attack you on one of those "Oh, she's SO funny" topics.
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