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Convoluted issues; resource guarding, littermates, you name it. (long)

12K views 129 replies 31 participants last post by  Shade 
#1 ·
I've been trying to gather my thoughts for several days on how to write this post. Sorry for the length.

Dogs being discussed:

~ Bailey, male, 16 months, recently neutered, still on light duty.
~ Tucker, his brother, same age obviously, brought into household at abt 9 months and neutered soon after.
~ Suri, female, 5 yr old Shiba Inu, the "cop" of the house. Fearless.
~ Dolly, female, 9-1/2 y/o American Eskimo, very gentle personality, mostly blind.

Before, I might've said Bailey's resource guarding came on suddenly, but that's not true. As I thought about it, as I re-read my own posts, it was working up -- very slowly -- but it was escalating right under my eyes.

Tucker and Bailey, the two littermates got along very well for quite awhile. (months) Then a few tiffs. I learned as I went what the signals were. Things escalated and the tiffs became closer together. Always Bailey starting it.

It was resource guarding. It was guarding me and food.

I did recognize this and learned to change my own ways of dealing with things. There was improvement.

Then one day I was making dinner and opened the fridge and Tucker was right there... and Bailey went at him. So the food guarding had jumped a peg on seriousness level. Prior to this, I could be out in the kitchen for an hour or more, cooking, dropping things on accident and no fights or issues. The dogs might rush to pick up the thing I'd dropped, but no fights. For months we could work obedience, dogs side by side being given commands and no problem. Their one-year old birthday pic shows two dogs in a stay with birthday cake in front of them; no problem....

(Note: the food guarding is only towards dogs. Bailey has no issue with me putting my hands in his food bowl, walking by, etc. He's perfectly fine with humans being near his food. Also, this issue hadn't really come to attn because all dogs are fed seperately.)

THEN things ramped up with a bad backyard fight. First fight that seriously scared me. First fight I couldn't break up physically or by voice. I had Tucker on a tieout (he'd fence jumped recently) and Bailey free. I was walking between them when it broke out, but not paying attn to either one. I ran for the water hose, but by then time I got ready to spray, it was over. It was horribly nasty sounding and appearing. I told Bailey to go inside and crated him up. I examined each dog and strangely, neither one had a single mark? Isn't that odd?

I then went with keeping Bailey on lead indoors. This turned out to be the wrong thing to do. I was advised this was a bad idea, but didn't get that info in time... I had Bailey tethered to me and my blind girl came stumbling up and he went at her. :( Scared the crap out of her. Gave her a teeny mark below her eye, which did make the area swell and upset me tremendously. I barely interacted with Bailey for the next couple of days, I was so upset. I am quite sure the tethering was the problem there, as he doesn't pay any mind to her otherwise. I feel horrible for that.

I allowed no interaction between boys for a couple of days. I then slowly let them be around one another. Bailey would hackle almost instantly -- all the way down his back. Tucker would hackle in reaction to Bailey. Once I distracted them with our routine game of fetch, they'd focus on that and ignore each other. If Tucker got too close to Bailey, though, Bailey would hackle up. It was tense and I'm sure my tension did add to that, even if I was trying to be cool.

I was being pretty strong-handed at this point with Bailey. Watching him like a hawk and reprimanding him. I had the hose already turned on and waiting, just in case.

It was like Bailey had taken an overnight dislike to Tucker. These are dogs that have laid together, played together, licked each others ears and other parts... dogs that enjoyed one another for months.

So we had a few days of some rather high tension, but no further fights. Then Bailey was neutered, so we're on full rotate/crate now.

So now I am wondering how to "re-introduce" the boys when Bailey's neuter has healed. Start from stratch, dogs on either side of a fence? Get a behaviorist involved?

I should add -- my Shiba Inu, (Suri,) is the *bomb*. This girl puts up with absolutely nothing. Neither dog challenges Suri. I have *none* of Bailey's issues with Suri -- he doesn't dare challenge her and he knows it and doesn't try.

Is Bailey just being a bully?? Tucker is a nice dog that never instigates anything. Dolly is an even sweeter dog that never instigates anything.. and here is Bailey, going after those two -- but never the dog that will not put up with his crap - (Suri) ?? I tell you, he wouldn't even begin to get snotty with that girl. She is definitely the strongest personality in the dog end of the household. She 'controls' the blind girl by not letting her get too close to the steps when I've accidentally left the door open... she is the true "cop" of the house.... She's sure won a lot of my respect the way she bosses these big white boys around.

But anyway... I am sorry that was long and quite involved. Funny how life was pretty good for awhile with this pack and now we have this upset.

Rotate/crate will continue until I feel Bailey is completely past neuter healing and that's why I am posting now... trying to get some ideas and info for when real life resumes.

And yes, re-homing Tucker is on the table, but that's not what I want to hear at this point. I'd be very interested in hearing ideas as to management, my failures, what I should do on the re-introduction, future management, etc.. I'm not saying I won't re-home, but I'd really prefer people just pick apart what I've said and find where I've failed, so I can find where I need to work on, what I can do different, etc..

Thank you very much if you made it this far. :)
 
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#2 ·
This is just a question, but give it some thought. Do you think at this point rehoming Tucker will help Bailey's issues? I only ask because I read that he went for one of the girls too. If Bailey is having issues, it might have started with Tucker, but they might have came out whether Tucker was there or not. It sounds like Bailey is the problem. I don't think it would hurt to talk to a behaviorist at this point. They can come in, watch, and then give you a good idea of what is going on. It wouldn't hurt. I wish you lots of luck, it can't be easy for you and I'm sorry your going through this.
 
#7 ·
It sounds like Bailey is the problem.
True. He is.

..... I could have predicted this. :(

Honestly, I think you should crate and rotate for the next six weeks, or however long you have Tucker. By that time, the hormones will have gone from Bailey's system and his behavior may be less intense. Get back to us about it then. :)
Why (the prediction) ? Due to Bailey being intact or the littermate, same age/same sex issue.. or both or ? (curious).

....I have to say...your assessment of the others in the "picture" may be way off. You never know what is really going on - Suri bossing the "big white boys" around may in fact be triggering Bailey's issues, as he's frustrated that he's not "top dog" and going to prove to someone he's a boss, and so picking on Tucker as he's "easy" to boss around.....

... I honestly think neutering Bailey was put off far too long and I think you may see improvement, but don't intro through the fence.

I'd crate them up and take them to a neutral spot if it was me. Walk them alongside each other, etc. but no nose-to-nose, and plenty of down time in the home.

You're going to have to step up leadership in a big way - don't let anyone be a bully or boss around in there for a while, anyway.
Ok, interesting perspective. I think you are right in that I waited too long. I got caught up in believing that guarding and territorialism was purely a training issue. I won't say it isn't, but I can say we could do things "back then" that we can't now -- ie, the side by side obedience with treats, etc. That was never an issue whatsoever until recently. Please, no one jump on that statement as a pro or anti speuter statement. I'm just trying to figure out this dog, nothing more. It could be all me as a crap poor owner and nothing to do with his genitals, I do not know.

Also interesting perspective on Suri. I'd never thought about that at all.

I can tell you that it is not the least bit odd neither one had a single mark. I found with my two littermates you had to let them work it out. Never a mark on either. It sounded terrible and looked scary. One time they reared up on their hind legs and looked like two black bears fighting. Never a puncture wound or a drop of blood. It was all noise and bluff. I know things are done a lot differently now and attitudes have changed but at the time I was told by experts that they had to establish a pack order and to stand back and stay out of it. I don't have any good suggestions for you other than if it were me I would try to find a local trainer you trust and have him or her watch and trust them to know when to step in or if you should rehome.
Really interesting and I have read this same advice. Hard to do, though! I think I do need to call someone in for guidance here.
 
#3 ·
I examined each dog and strangely, neither one had a single mark? Isn't that odd?
Not at all. Most skirmishes (especially the loud ones) are mainly a lot of bluster, air-snapping, and noise, and very little injury. However, this can escalate to bloody battles. It's the quiet fights that are deadly serious, because a dog can't make a lot of noise when his mouth is full.

It was like Bailey had taken an overnight dislike to Tucker. These are dogs that have laid together, played together, licked each others ears and other parts... dogs that enjoyed one another for months.
Yep. Pretty typical of "littermate syndrome".... they will love each other one day and want to kill each other the next. I could have predicted this. :(

Honestly, I think you should crate and rotate for the next six weeks, or however long you have Tucker. By that time, the hormones will have gone from Bailey's system and his behavior may be less intense. Get back to us about it then. :)
 
#4 ·
I told Bailey to go inside and crated him up. I examined each dog and strangely, neither one had a single mark? Isn't that odd?
No, not really. Many dog fights sound horrid but aren't even physical.

I have to say...your assessment of the others in the "picture" may be way off.
You never know what is really going on - Suri bossing the "big white boys" around may in fact be triggering Bailey's issues, as he's frustrated that he's not "top dog" and going to prove to someone he's a boss, and so picking on Tucker as he's "easy" to boss around.

Our dogs get along most the time. One, Coda, is "everyone's friend". But we added a particular foster last winter, and Coda started beating up dogs I have seen him be best friends with.
It was alarming. I had to crate him the rest of the time that dog was here.

Dog relationships are more fluid than folks realize.
I honestly think neutering Bailey was put off far too long and I think you may see improvement, but don't intro through the fence.

I'd crate them up and take them to a neutral spot if it was me. Walk them alongside each other, etc. but no nose-to-nose, and plenty of down time in the home.

You're going to have to step up leadership in a big way - don't let anyone be a bully or boss around in there for a while, anyway.
 
#5 ·
LOL Free, I hit enter and saw your reply.
Glad we're on the same page, makes me think my instincts are "on" with this.
I'm very used to multiple dog homes and dogs entering and leaving this multi dog home, too ;)
 
#6 ·
THEN things ramped up with a bad backyard fight. First fight that seriously scared me. First fight I couldn't break up physically or by voice. I had Tucker on a tieout (he'd fence jumped recently) and Bailey free. I was walking between them when it broke out, but not paying attn to either one. I ran for the water hose, but by then time I got ready to spray, it was over. It was horribly nasty sounding and appearing. I told Bailey to go inside and crated him up. I examined each dog and strangely, neither one had a single mark? Isn't that odd?

Thank you very much if you made it this far. :)
I can tell you that it is not the least bit odd neither one had a single mark. I found with my two littermates you had to let them work it out. Never a mark on either. It sounded terrible and looked scary. One time they reared up on their hind legs and looked like two black bears fighting. Never a puncture wound or a drop of blood. It was all noise and bluff. I know things are done a lot differently now and attitudes have changed but at the time I was told by experts that they had to establish a pack order and to stand back and stay out of it. I don't have any good suggestions for you other than if it were me I would try to find a local trainer you trust and have him or her watch and trust them to know when to step in or if you should rehome.
 
#8 ·
chelle, you know the saying about crap running downhill', right? Applies to the dog world, too ;)

I'm not saying Suri's bossiness is the issue, but it's certainly something to consider. Bailey may have aspirations and feel frustrated he's not able to act on them.
 
#10 ·
1. Wait 6 weeks - 3 months for the neuter to "take."
2. Use NILIF the whole time - for all the dogs.
3. Re look at MINE! because I think it is a scientific approach.
4. During this time, shop for trainers - look for ones that look at the relationship you have w/your dogs. Ask about Clothier, things like that to see if any are involved in her kind of training. Also here is one Donaldson trained: http://www.academyfordogtrainers.com/sc/Academy_Graduate_Referral_List.pdf and then Finding Help has a list as well.
5. Look at the part you are playing in the relationships - think about ways to maintain a healthy relationship and disengage from the parts that are not.
6. Consider having Bailey's thryoid checked.
7. You are running the show - it's a lot of work, but show them that you can do it and they will relax. And if it is still not fixable, even with you and everyone operating at a level beyond that of most pet owners, then that's another story.

Seems like a lot to do, but you have the time to do it, while you wait for him to completely heal and dehormonate. ;)
 
#39 ·
1. Wait 6 weeks - 3 months for the neuter to "take."
2. Use NILIF the whole time - for all the dogs.
3. Re look at MINE! because I think it is a scientific approach.
4. During this time, shop for trainers - look for ones that look at the relationship you have w/your dogs. Ask about Clothier, things like that to see if any are involved in her kind of training. Also here is one Donaldson trained: http://www.academyfordogtrainers.com/sc/Academy_Graduate_Referral_List.pdf and then Finding Help has a list as well.
5. Look at the part you are playing in the relationships - think about ways to maintain a healthy relationship and disengage from the parts that are not.
6. Consider having Bailey's thryoid checked.
7. You are running the show - it's a lot of work, but show them that you can do it and they will relax. And if it is still not fixable, even with you and everyone operating at a level beyond that of most pet owners, then that's another story.

Seems like a lot to do, but you have the time to do it, while you wait for him to completely heal and dehormonate. ;)
Im no expert. Lived w/ Dodger and Lucky and Dodger was D/A. Did not know a thing about what I was doing.Never worked w/ a trainer and didnt know about this place. It was difficult.Ive got nothing behind my name for this to have any expert slant. Jean's ideas sound like a place to start and if Tuck needs rehomed you can work to get hime ready and make sure its a home you feel comfortable w/. Hormones do take awhile to settle and having a fresh eye thats neutral as in a trainer might just help.Chelle hang in there. I think you handle alot more then most folks could.I would just say that our living w/ seperate eating,out in the yard play time was a long 3 years .
 
#12 ·
IMO, as a pet dog, he should have been neutered around 8-9 months. The problems you've been having are due in large part to hormones; this is why I am not entirely comfortable with this forum telling pet owners not to spay/neuter, or to wait until after maturity to do so, especially in multi-dog households, telling everyone that hormonal behavior is nothing more than a "training issue"
Although no guarantee you'd not behaving these issues, I do think the additional hormones played a role, that undirected testosterone is difficult for some teen boy dogs to deal with. You would see the type behavior Bailey's been displaying, unfortunately.

And unwittingly or indirectly may end up costing one of the boys it's home :(

I think folks with 1-2 dogs who are training daily or at least 2-3x a week, very intensely may not see the hormonal behaviors like us mere pet owners do, which is why they have the luxury of keeping those hormones around.
 
#13 ·
I think I remember telling you this was going to get out of control between the brothers, but others felt it was manageable and you seemed inclined to go with them:). No problem....but I will repeat....this is not going to work and somebody is going to get hurt sooner or later...whichever comes first.....hope not but not optimistic.
 
#14 ·
It's easy to sit and say that Cliff. A whole 'nother ball of wax when you realize that it's very difficult to find dogs homes already, dogs with no issues at all. Since the economy has taken the downturn, adoptions have dropped off significantly.
Half of the issue is going to be on the economy and slow or non-existent adoptions, the other half, as you know, is going to be on the owner who loves both dogs and doesn't want to have to give one up.
 
#15 ·
I have a lot of respect for Chelle and what she has accomplished with her dogs. But...the original plan was to rehome Tucker. The economy sucked when that Plan A was implemented, when she brought Tucker in to rehome. It doesn't suck any more now than it did then. So it won't be any harder to rehome now, looking at it strictly from the larger economic outlook.

Tucker is much more adoptable now than he was then. He is neutered, crate trained and he has basic house manners on board.

Doing the right thing is often not the same thing as doing the easy thing, or the same thing as what we want to do. But that doesn't make it any less the right thing. That is what Chelle is struggling with right now. The economy and her emotional attachment are just back ground noises to the larger question of what is right for her and ALL the dogs, including the ones that were in her home long before she was ever aware of Tucker.
Sheilah
 
#16 ·
Rehoming a dog is a hard, heart-breaking choice and I commend Chelle for considering that as an option. Can't take back anything done in the past, instead look to the future---->

What if Bailey never stops the aggressive behavior? Is it fair to YOU, Chelle, to have to rotate all the dogs day after day for the next 14 years? Is it fair to the other dogs to have to be crated all the time because of another dog's issues?

The best situation seems to be if you could find Bailey a home with someone that has no other pets and that can update you on how he is doing. I know you love him and can't just part with him to never know how he is doing...

What about children ( I do not know your age or relationship status, sorry ) ....are you planning on having children sometime in the next 14 years (this dog's life span)? If he is so huge about resource guarding would you feel comfortable with him around a baby? It would be better to find him a home sooner rather than waiting a few years and finding out he is unmanageable around a child and having to find a home for an older dog.

Just my two cents. I'm no trainer or behaviorist. Just another dog owner that had to rehome a foster that I loved because of aggression issues.
 
#18 ·
Rehoming a dog is a hard, heart-breaking choice and I commend Chelle for considering that as an option. Can't take back anything done in the past, instead look to the future----> Yes. :)

What if Bailey never stops the aggressive behavior? Is it fair to YOU, Chelle, to have to rotate all the dogs day after day for the next 14 years? Is it fair to the other dogs to have to be crated all the time because of another dog's issues?

The best situation seems to be if you could find Bailey a home with someone that has no other pets and that can update you on how he is doing. I know you love him and can't just part with him to never know how he is doing...

Bailey isn't going anywhere... The guarding is about Tucker. The incident with Dolly the other day was, I believe, only because he was leashed, as Bailey knows full well to ignore Dolly. She bumps around and walks right under him (she's short enough!) and no reaction. He ignores her. He doesn't challenge Suri.

I only have to rotate/crate Bailey and Tucker. The other dogs are free unless it's feeding time and then boys are crated, girls are in separate rooms.

Life is just fine when it is the two girls and Bailey or the two girls and Tucker. For the longest time, it was fine with all four. I can't count how many times I would come home from work and release the crated dogs and say, "lets go!" and out the door with all four. Then a potty and all four back in to eat, each going to their proper place with no problems ever... Worked so well for so long! Maybe I'm stubborn and don't want to let go of the hope I can have that back again.

What about children ( I do not know your age or relationship status, sorry ) ....are you planning on having children sometime in the next 14 years (this dog's life span)? If he is so huge about resource guarding would you feel comfortable with him around a baby? It would be better to find him a home sooner rather than waiting a few years and finding out he is unmanageable around a child and having to find a home for an older dog.

Just my two cents. I'm no trainer or behaviorist. Just another dog owner that had to rehome a foster that I loved because of aggression issues.

There will be no kids, I'm too old, but I could be a grandma in the next few years. :) But, again, the resource/food guarding is not with humans. There is zero problem there.
..........................
 
#19 ·
I have a question:) Is Bailey resource/food guarding with the other dogs? Or just Tucker?

It's a really hard one to call:( I like Jeans advice and agree with what she's suggested to try.

Sometimes dogs have s u c k e r stamped on their foreheads, and while it could be bullying, it sounds like he is quite serious IN his bullying.

Years and years ago, like a century:) I had an 8 week old gsd that I bought, anyhow, the breeder had his littermate returned at 10 weeks and asked me if I wanted him, I said NO WAY, well a friend of mine took him..we re introduced them when they were around 11 weeks old, let me tell you, hers hated and I mean hated mine. And this was an 11 week old puppy!

We would hike together, and they NEVER EVER got along, on leash and not on top of each other was fine, but hers would always try and start something if given the chance. And as he matured, he got even nastier. (hers not mine)

With that, I thank my lucky stars I didn't take him, I don't have the patience for it, butts would be flying:)

Anyhow, just wanted to throw that out there, and I think keeping them separated until those hormones dissipate, finding a good behaviorist to help you out, and take it from there..Good luck to you all, I know how much you love both dogs and you are not a crappy owner, you've done really well with all of them:)
 
#21 ·
I have a question:) Is Bailey resource/food guarding with the other dogs? Or just Tucker?

It's a really hard one to call:( I like Jeans advice and agree with what she's suggested to try.

Sometimes dogs have s u c k e r stamped on their foreheads, and while it could be bullying, it sounds like he is quite serious IN his bullying.

Years and years ago, like a century:) I had an 8 week old gsd that I bought, anyhow, the breeder had his littermate returned at 10 weeks and asked me if I wanted him, I said NO WAY, well a friend of mine took him..we re introduced them when they were around 11 weeks old, let me tell you, hers hated and I mean hated mine. And this was an 11 week old puppy!

We would hike together, and they NEVER EVER got along, on leash and not on top of each other was fine, but hers would always try and start something if given the chance. And as he matured, he got even nastier. (hers not mine)

With that, I thank my lucky stars I didn't take him, I don't have the patience for it, butts would be flying:)

Anyhow, just wanted to throw that out there, and I think keeping them separated until those hormones dissipate, finding a good behaviorist to help you out, and take it from there..Good luck to you all, I know how much you love both dogs and you are not a crappy owner, you've done really well with all of them:)
The food guarding is with all dogs, but is basically non-existent because they eat separately. But, say, another dog walked by him when he was eating, he would growl at them. This is a rarity, as no one is released from their room/crate until all have finished. Yet, it ramped up the other day when I was getting in the refrigerator and he went for Tucker for being that close to the open refrigerator door. I used to be able to be in the kitchen cooking for long periods and none of this crap went on. Taking it to this level is a very new development. I used to be able to do obedience stuff, doling out treats with all the dogs lined up with zero problems. I wouldn't risk it now.

Resource guarding (me mostly, but some toys, which were put up when discovered which ones were problems,) is only with Tucker. Suri or Dolly can be on my lap or wherever they want to be without reaction from him.

The escalating signs were there and I either missed them or excused them.. and other behaviors were quick to change..

I want these days back!










 
#20 ·
I'm with Cliff, I have learned at times to refrain from posting here, because some are just so eager to write a 10 page essay on all the fabulous training methods they've heard, seen, watched on youtube, etc when it comes to fighting dogs.

I don't know if I ever posted in the earlier threads or not (and I'm not going back to look ;) ) but the reality is that same sex litter mates often do not work out. The people that say things are going great generally have young dogs or submissive dogs. Or they are simply the exception to the rule. This isn't uncommon and most people who have kept more than a couple dogs at a time know this and respect it. It can be done with a LOT of management (crate and rotate, etc) but once dogs (litter mates or not) start fighting, it rarely goes back to harmony in the household.

People can list a million things for you to try, and you seem like a kind hearted person who is going to try them all. But in the end, you're probably going to end up visiting the vet with one or both of the boys to get injuries repaired. Hopefully, you won't have to visit the ER to have yourself doctored for accidental bite wounds incurred trying to seperate them. Water generally doesn't work on dogs that are truely fighting. You need two people, one at each end of the dog. Leerburgs site breaks down how to pull apart dogs that are fighting. Or if you're alone, you can back tie one and use a break stick or pull the hind quarters of the dog not backtied and try to seperate them. It won't be easy. The fights will get worse, and eventually they'll get bloody.
 
#23 ·
I had suggested re-homing on your original thread as well. This just sounds way too stressful, for you and all the dogs. The re-homing will take time anyway, it may take a few months before you find a family that is suitable.

We currently have a young, rambunctious foster male GSD that we separate from our 7 yo female GSD. My female GSD will tolerate mild-mannered dogs, but not our current foster who wants to be in her face (to invite play) every chance he gets. Problems will probably arise if we don't keep them separated, and we don't want to take a chance. We plan on keeping them separated until the foster gets adopted (we've had him for four months). I am just too much of a worry wart to test boundaries like that.
 
#24 ·
You know there is alot of people out there like me whose gsd of 12 years passed away and want to give another a home, not a puppy and not so old to go thur all that again too soon. I got a 2 year old rescue who the former owners said she stressed out their little dog. they thought she should go to a home with no little dogs perfect for me, as I only wanted 1 dog. Ther are alot of people out there that will give him a very good home. She is very loved and well taken care of. I also think now with tough times, some people would rather rescue than pay for a new pup.
 
#25 ·
because some are just so eager to write a 10 page essay on all the fabulous training methods they've heard, seen, watched on youtube, etc when it comes to fighting dogs.
Then there's those who live with multiple dogs and make it work.
I think it can still work but not until leadership is vastly taken control of...over all the dogs, not just the "problem dogs" because I believe that all the dogs contribute to pack structure, and if the owner is not addressing all the dogs, then things are missing and will always be skewed.

Although you do address something we've not dealt with and that's same-sex siblings.
That said, we've adopted out siblings, even same sex ones and they worked out fine in their new homes.
It's not always doomsday.
And I'd expect two boys to work out better than two girls.
 
#27 ·
Then there's those who live with multiple dogs and make it work. I think it can still work but not until leadership is vastly taken control of...over all the dogs, not just the "problem dogs" because I believe that all the dogs contribute to pack structure, and if the owner is not addressing all the dogs, then things are missing and will always be skewed.
I was going to cut that quote a little more, but since I only ever have to worry about 2 dogs at a time, not 4, I can't really speak to the problem the same way msvette2u can. If she thinks all 4 need it, then they probably do. But I still think that you're not putting your foot down enough. Bailey is getting away with mucho crapo - there's no way he should be guarding the fridge. Leadership does seem to be weak if this is going on. And you're not a bad owner! I'm not saying that at all, only that it sounds like Bailey is making the rules right now. I don't have to tell you that this is wrong, lol.
 
#26 ·
My male aussie (who's 11) , has always been 'iffy' when it comes to food and other dogs especially in my house..Grumbles/growls, and has on occasion gone after one of the other dogs, mostly the big bluff, but a royal pain at times, nonetheless.

He's always been this way, ALWAYS, I know what sets him off and like I said, with him 99% of the time it's just alotta noise, BUT, he is crated when he is fed, and he's managed. Correcting him negatively, only amps up the growling/grumbling..So he's managed..At this point in his life, he knows when I say, "GO TO YOUR MAT",,he knows I am not kidding, and well he goes:)

In fact I just banished him from my bedroom because he thinks "that" belongs to him as well, but like I said, all I have to do is say "LEAVE right NOW", and he gets up leaves the room, grumbling the whole way.

It's a tough call for ANYONE, I think we all think we can never find a home for an animal that would be better than the one we provide.

Again, I think I would try what Jean suggested, and if it doesn't work/help, well atleast you can say you tried your best, and go from there:)
 
#28 ·
Well... I just put up a CL ad. :mad::(

Just to test the waters, expecting nothing at all. I said I'd require an application, but I sure don't have one crafted... Guess it is something of a bluff, just to see if anything worth anything comes about.

Six weeks more of rotate/crate will test my very limits.

I want to see what is "out there."

My heart is breaking and I'm very confused on what to do. I want the "old days" back so bad it brings me to tears, but ... tonight I took Tuckies on a car ride to the store and he was so happy... and I thought... he deserves this FAR more often than he is getting it with me having these two adolescents + my two girls. I do want more for him! I want a life for him that he has no fear of another dog in the house. Bailey can play with his mom... with my parents' little terrier for doggy play outlets...

I know people will say talk to rescues, and I will if this gets more serious -- when I am SURE I want to rehome. Please don't bash me. I'm bashing myself enough for the whole board already.
 
#29 ·
chelle - would crate/rotate really be such a bad thing? If you are determined to keep both, why not just crate/rotate as you beef up training? Not ideal, but not every dog will get along. That's just the facts of it. Eventually as they are both much better trained and controlled, you can have them out together. They may be civil around each other and maintain normalcy, but you will have to keep a constant vigil. Watch them and immediately intervene when a situation escalates. I have seen multiple intact males in the same household work, but there had to be a high level of management and control. You won't be able to just let them loose and turn your back. Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that with quarreling dogs. You can certainly keep both, but you have to decide what you are willing to do. For me, crate/rotate and a system of outside runs is a great way to keep and enjoy multiple dogs (some who inevitably do not get along). However, for you, that may completely unacceptable; in which case, it is probably better for your sanity to rehome one.
 
#31 ·
chelle sometimes whats' good for us and what we 'want', isn't good for the dog ya know? You will know the right thing to do for him, it may be hard but who knows, take it day by day and see what develops..
 
#33 ·
chelle, there's nothing wrong with you per se, it's just that you seem more of an "easy pet" owner than a "tough pets" owner. You know, you've had it so good with your old gals, the Eskie and Suri, and I see this all the time in rescue. The good, easy dogs are welcome in some homes and if things get rocky with the addition of another dog (and sometimes they do!) then boom the other dog is sitting right back here and the owner's like, "I'm never doing THAT again!"

Most people think we're insane for having 9 dogs in our home at any given time, and I tend to agree :crazy:
But also I know we have them and make the best of it, through fights and tiffs and hurt feelings, fosters coming and going, etc. The worst ones are when another dog enters the home and messes everything all up LOL Which is why fosters never ever ever get the same privileges as our dogs, and people will say "Oh but that's not FAIR", well, dogs do not even have the word FAIR in their vocabulary.

My impression of this is all basically that you are a great owner but when things get rough you're in too deep.
Perhaps that's why cliffson figures it's never going to work, I don't know, he didn't expound.

Remember ages ago I wanted to call you and talk on the phone, so we could gab about this stuff and I could give you some observations, things I've noticed and learned along the way? It's too hard and time consuming to type it all!
We'll have to do that some day LOL

I agree - nobody should guard anything in that house, let alone the fridge ;)

Everyone here gets along 99% of the time but everyone has boundaries and they have to know it and stick to it of there's trouble.
 
#35 ·
Most people think we're insane for having 9 dogs in our home at any given time, and I tend to agree :crazy:
But also I know we have them and make the best of it, through fights and tiffs and hurt feelings, fosters coming and going, etc.
Would you have your same degree of success with that many dogs if most of them weren't as small as they are? I mean, if the "tiffs" in your home were happening between two 70 lb. dogs and not between two 12 lb. dogs, would your desire to "make the best of it" be as strong? To what degree does your training as an animal control officer play into you feeling like you can handle the dynamics of a large number of animals in your own home?

And yes, a 12 lb. dog can bite just as badly as a 70 lb. dog. I fully understand that. But, come on, in cases like dog-dog aggression, size informs our response.

I know whyI don't think it is workable in Chelle's home. I have that opinion because I have seen this type of thing play out over and over again over the years and experience has told me that the type of management that dealing with it requires is really, really difficult to follow through on, day in and day out, for years. Shoot, I am living the crate and rotate routine in my own home and I have for years. It is hard, and I have the help and support of a husband and an older son who know what the routine is and follow it faithfully. I can't imagine doing it on my own.
Sheilah
 
#36 ·
I agree, I'd not have 9 70+ lb. dogs in our home but we have had many larger dogs here, there is no difference in the amount of leadership needed to manage.
We have two large breed fosters in our home as well as our own right now, and they still take as much work to move around and manage. When some go outside, others come in, etc.

There's just a difference in the amount of space.

As to ACO vs. regular folk, no, I don't think there's a huge difference in how to manage, except I learned a ton of things about dog body language and what makes them tick, to have so many different experiences with them. Maybe...more in tune with their body language and what they are saying.

Management is key, and it's draining at times.
 
#38 ·
Bailey is totally focused when he knows what you want and expect from him, because that's what leadership is. Doing OB and retrieving is easy. It's the rest that's hard, because it's up to us to communicate what we want. And we have to know where we want to end up, in order to ask for the steps along the way to end up at that point. Wordy, lol - I hope that makes some kind of sense!

For example, yesterday I was the big joke because at a family gathering some food dropped to the floor and I scooped it up. Everyone said for me to leave it and let my puppy get it. Like heck, lol! I said that he's trained that if he wants something in the kitchen when I'm preparing something, he has to go into his crate and wait for me to share. So everyone called me mean, made jokes about how their dogs are supposed to pick up the food that falls, etc...whatever... I don't care if they think I'm mean, and I think it's stupid that they all said "poor puppy" but I want a well behaved dog and so I have to anticipate what that means to me. I don't like dogs that hover in the kitchen, so not only do I not give them any reason to, but I reward them for not doing it. I love that my puppy will sit in his crate while I make a sandwich, hoping for some cheese. And when I go to their houses, they end up frustrated because they're tripping over their dogs, and then they're yelling at the dogs to get lost. After they've trained them to do the exact opposite, lol!

What did you do when Bailey guarded the fridge? I would have banished him from the kitchen. Or at least I think I would have, not being there to actually know what was going on, lol.
 
#40 ·
Bailey is totally focused when he knows what you want and expect from him, because that's what leadership is. Doing OB and retrieving is easy. It's the rest that's hard, because it's up to us to communicate what we want. And we have to know where we want to end up, in order to ask for the steps along the way to end up at that point. Wordy, lol - I hope that makes some kind of sense!

For example, yesterday I was the big joke because at a family gathering some food dropped to the floor and I scooped it up. Everyone said for me to leave it and let my puppy get it. Like heck, lol! I said that he's trained that if he wants something in the kitchen when I'm preparing something, he has to go into his crate and wait for me to share. So everyone called me mean, made jokes about how their dogs are supposed to pick up the food that falls, etc...whatever... I don't care if they think I'm mean, and I think it's stupid that they all said "poor puppy" but I want a well behaved dog and so I have to anticipate what that means to me. I don't like dogs that hover in the kitchen, so not only do I not give them any reason to, but I reward them for not doing it. I love that my puppy will sit in his crate while I make a sandwich, hoping for some cheese. And when I go to their houses, they end up frustrated because they're tripping over their dogs, and then they're yelling at the dogs to get lost. After they've trained them to do the exact opposite, lol!

What did you do when Bailey guarded the fridge? I would have banished him from the kitchen. Or at least I think I would have, not being there to actually know what was going on, lol.
You do make sense. I get it. I am also that "joke" like you explain. That's me. Heck, my family members feed dogs right from the table. I have never done that, nor will I ever do that -- cannot stand that.

As far as the fridge thing... I am quite used to having dogs underfoot. There are four of them always milling about and they're always where I am, whether kitchen or whatever. As well as a cat in the midst.

He wasn't guarding the fridge, so to speak... he was just there, like there are always dogs close to me. Tucker was just closer to the fridge, sniffing and that's all it took. I told Bailey NO, grabbed him by the collar and crated him. I'm not thrilled with the crating, as I don't want him to see the crate as punishment since he likes his crate, but that's what I did. Didn't know what else to do really. I had to get him out of the mix to calm things down.

Im no expert. Lived w/ Dodger and Lucky and Dodger was D/A. Did not know a thing about what I was doing.Never worked w/ a trainer and didnt know about this place. It was difficult.Ive got nothing behind my name for this to have any expert slant. Jean's ideas sound like a place to start and if Tuck needs rehomed you can work to get hime ready and make sure its a home you feel comfortable w/. Hormones do take awhile to settle and having a fresh eye thats neutral as in a trainer might just help.Chelle hang in there. I think you handle alot more then most folks could.I would just say that our living w/ seperate eating,out in the yard play time was a long 3 years .
I'll hang in there because I have no other choice for now. :) I will call in the same trainer that I called before when I'm ready. She is cool as a cucumber: Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers®

Thanks for the encouragement. :) Sadly, I'm not doing this for three years.
 
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