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Convoluted issues; resource guarding, littermates, you name it. (long)

12K views 129 replies 31 participants last post by  Shade 
#1 ·
I've been trying to gather my thoughts for several days on how to write this post. Sorry for the length.

Dogs being discussed:

~ Bailey, male, 16 months, recently neutered, still on light duty.
~ Tucker, his brother, same age obviously, brought into household at abt 9 months and neutered soon after.
~ Suri, female, 5 yr old Shiba Inu, the "cop" of the house. Fearless.
~ Dolly, female, 9-1/2 y/o American Eskimo, very gentle personality, mostly blind.

Before, I might've said Bailey's resource guarding came on suddenly, but that's not true. As I thought about it, as I re-read my own posts, it was working up -- very slowly -- but it was escalating right under my eyes.

Tucker and Bailey, the two littermates got along very well for quite awhile. (months) Then a few tiffs. I learned as I went what the signals were. Things escalated and the tiffs became closer together. Always Bailey starting it.

It was resource guarding. It was guarding me and food.

I did recognize this and learned to change my own ways of dealing with things. There was improvement.

Then one day I was making dinner and opened the fridge and Tucker was right there... and Bailey went at him. So the food guarding had jumped a peg on seriousness level. Prior to this, I could be out in the kitchen for an hour or more, cooking, dropping things on accident and no fights or issues. The dogs might rush to pick up the thing I'd dropped, but no fights. For months we could work obedience, dogs side by side being given commands and no problem. Their one-year old birthday pic shows two dogs in a stay with birthday cake in front of them; no problem....

(Note: the food guarding is only towards dogs. Bailey has no issue with me putting my hands in his food bowl, walking by, etc. He's perfectly fine with humans being near his food. Also, this issue hadn't really come to attn because all dogs are fed seperately.)

THEN things ramped up with a bad backyard fight. First fight that seriously scared me. First fight I couldn't break up physically or by voice. I had Tucker on a tieout (he'd fence jumped recently) and Bailey free. I was walking between them when it broke out, but not paying attn to either one. I ran for the water hose, but by then time I got ready to spray, it was over. It was horribly nasty sounding and appearing. I told Bailey to go inside and crated him up. I examined each dog and strangely, neither one had a single mark? Isn't that odd?

I then went with keeping Bailey on lead indoors. This turned out to be the wrong thing to do. I was advised this was a bad idea, but didn't get that info in time... I had Bailey tethered to me and my blind girl came stumbling up and he went at her. :( Scared the crap out of her. Gave her a teeny mark below her eye, which did make the area swell and upset me tremendously. I barely interacted with Bailey for the next couple of days, I was so upset. I am quite sure the tethering was the problem there, as he doesn't pay any mind to her otherwise. I feel horrible for that.

I allowed no interaction between boys for a couple of days. I then slowly let them be around one another. Bailey would hackle almost instantly -- all the way down his back. Tucker would hackle in reaction to Bailey. Once I distracted them with our routine game of fetch, they'd focus on that and ignore each other. If Tucker got too close to Bailey, though, Bailey would hackle up. It was tense and I'm sure my tension did add to that, even if I was trying to be cool.

I was being pretty strong-handed at this point with Bailey. Watching him like a hawk and reprimanding him. I had the hose already turned on and waiting, just in case.

It was like Bailey had taken an overnight dislike to Tucker. These are dogs that have laid together, played together, licked each others ears and other parts... dogs that enjoyed one another for months.

So we had a few days of some rather high tension, but no further fights. Then Bailey was neutered, so we're on full rotate/crate now.

So now I am wondering how to "re-introduce" the boys when Bailey's neuter has healed. Start from stratch, dogs on either side of a fence? Get a behaviorist involved?

I should add -- my Shiba Inu, (Suri,) is the *bomb*. This girl puts up with absolutely nothing. Neither dog challenges Suri. I have *none* of Bailey's issues with Suri -- he doesn't dare challenge her and he knows it and doesn't try.

Is Bailey just being a bully?? Tucker is a nice dog that never instigates anything. Dolly is an even sweeter dog that never instigates anything.. and here is Bailey, going after those two -- but never the dog that will not put up with his crap - (Suri) ?? I tell you, he wouldn't even begin to get snotty with that girl. She is definitely the strongest personality in the dog end of the household. She 'controls' the blind girl by not letting her get too close to the steps when I've accidentally left the door open... she is the true "cop" of the house.... She's sure won a lot of my respect the way she bosses these big white boys around.

But anyway... I am sorry that was long and quite involved. Funny how life was pretty good for awhile with this pack and now we have this upset.

Rotate/crate will continue until I feel Bailey is completely past neuter healing and that's why I am posting now... trying to get some ideas and info for when real life resumes.

And yes, re-homing Tucker is on the table, but that's not what I want to hear at this point. I'd be very interested in hearing ideas as to management, my failures, what I should do on the re-introduction, future management, etc.. I'm not saying I won't re-home, but I'd really prefer people just pick apart what I've said and find where I've failed, so I can find where I need to work on, what I can do different, etc..

Thank you very much if you made it this far. :)
 
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#93 ·
Tucker loves Bailey. It is just Bailey that has been a buttwad to Tucker.

Thought I'd add this little snippet.... (I was so trying to be sneaky and point the camcorder backwards..:))

Outside time is over, it is getting late, they've had all the exercise they're going to get for today.

Bailey is not happy in his crate. Normally he is fine in his crate. No seperation anxiety or any of that. Tonight,,,, not thrilled.... (granted, his exercise level is down after the neuter, but we're at 9 days and about ready to start rockin...)

So here comes Tuckie to lay near him. Note Tucker does not get "very" near him, but he comes the length of the house to be close to him. He could lay down 100 places, but he wants to get close to Bails. (but not too close)



An hour or so later, we've rotated, so Bails is out and Tucker in.. and now Bailey goes to lay close to Tucker's crate.

These nutty, crazy, insane dogs! There has been no growling, no nothing.. they just go lay fairly close to each other. Not saying it means a thing, but is interesting to me.
 
#102 ·
These nutty, crazy, insane dogs! There has been no growling, no nothing.. they just go lay fairly close to each other. Not saying it means a thing, but is interesting to me.
Chelle,

My GSD and my Golden got along like best buds for the first 3 years of my GSD's life. Then out of nowhere, they had ONE squabble - started by the Golden - and my GSD made every attempt to take him out. Including having the Golden by the neck and thrashing him.

For the rest of the Golden's life, I'll have to crate and rotate. No doubts about it. They always lay by each other. If one is in the back yard, the other is by the window. If one is in the large run in the yard, the other is laying by the fence. Make so mistake, this is NOT done out of love. As with your two, they aren't growling either. But watch very closely for the stink eye. Watch the stiffness in the body as the other approaches. Just slight, but it's there. Watch where the other boy marks. Watch closely, you'll see it.

It brings to mind the saying, "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer."
 
#95 ·
It's a dog conspiracy. :eek: They are trying to drive their human mama into insanity. It may work. Errr, actually, I think I'm already there.

But seriously, SOMEONE, please tell me what this is about. Why are they attempting to be close to one anther?
 
#97 · (Edited)
Keep in mind... I am NOT a professional trainer, nor am I a behavioralist. What I take from this short video is that one brother is hearing crying from another. He's wanting to know 'why' the crying is going on... maybe even wondering why his brother is crated. However, he's stressed. He doesn't get up to go near the crate to 'check him out' with tail wagging, ears up..which I would expect from a confident dog. IMO, he's conflicted. His past experience has shown him that getting too close could cause a totally different reaction...so he keeps his distance. To me, this isn't 'brotherly love' you're seeing. I know you want to see it, and I don't blame you. My Pug runs right up to Grim's kennel to 'see' him even if he's not making any noise. We've had to crate dogs after surgeries, and they were all over each other checking out the 'sick one' in the crate. IMO, the dog that isn't crated is stressed. Maybe even worried about whether the crated dog is going to remain in the crate.

A behaviorist to step in is going to be your best shot. I fear that one day, they are REALLY going to have a knock down, drag out fight. IMO, a behaviorist needs to be found, hired, and in for a consult before both dogs are 100% from their surgeries. I am with the crowd that believes it would be both beneficial to ALL your dogs and you to re-home Tucker. I KNOW that's not what you want to hear. However, I believe I'm seeing stress even though one dog is safely crated.
 
#104 · (Edited)
I assume you're being sarcastic? The dogs slept together for years, often just like that. I didn't make an effort to pull them apart because up until recently, there was never a fight or even a snark.

Sometimes things just change, even over night. My point was that there's nothing we can do about it. We can try to analyze every photo or behavior but it doesn't change the fact that if the dogs are going for blood then they either need to be managed or one re-homed.
 
#109 ·
If you have no way to use two crates, then always crate Tucker. Situation solved.

I say this because apparently Tucker has no issue being the "underdog" so treat him like one, thereby enforcing Bailey's assumed role as top dog.

**Is that where all this started, btw??? With Bailey being crated while Tucker ran the house?
See my note in HEALTH about my Dachshund to get an idea how stressful it is for some dogs to be crated!!
 
#110 ·
If you have no way to use two crates, then always crate Tucker. Situation solved.

I say this because apparently Tucker has no issue being the "underdog" so treat him like one, thereby enforcing Bailey's assumed role as top dog.

**Is that where all this started, btw??? With Bailey being crated while Tucker ran the house?
See my note in HEALTH about my Dachshund to get an idea how stressful it is for some dogs to be crated!!
No, I DO have two crates. When one dog is inside, the other is crated or outside. I hate to crate them both at the same time because I would literally have them in crates 12 hours a day. So... I take one outside and play, etc... let one roam in the house. Come inside, crate the loose one up, bring in the exercised one, crate him up. Remove other dog from crate, go outside with that dog. Come inside, let crated dog have house roam. Go back outside, play.

Repeat.

Later in the evenings, when I'm just plain tired, I have crated them both for a while, especially after eating, to just chill and let me chill. That's about the only time both are crated.

Dang made me tired just to type that.

Prior to the skirmishes starting, both dogs crates were left out and open and they went in and out as they pleased. No one had to be in while the other was out, except for meals.

On a positive note, it looks as though I may be doing an initial visit to someone interested in Tucker. A friend of a friend. She has a nine year old son, though, so I hope Tucker isn't too rambunctious for him. She has a big yard and 6 foot privacy fence. She lost her Lab 18 months ago and doesn't want to raise a puppy again.... so we will see. I don't want to get my hopes up too high for a perfect home. No such thing as perfect, I'm sure. Even if they hit it off like gangbusters, I wouldn't let him go without a couple visits. I want Tucker to get to know them first.

What might be a good plan there? (I'm going off topic, sorry, but I'll take that liberty on my own thread, lol.) Let him meet them. Hang out, talk to them, watch the interactions, see their yard, spend a little time, etc. Maybe set up another meet Saturday for a bit. Then maybe let him stay with them alone for a time on Sunday, an hour or so? Granted, I'm putting the cart before the horse that all will be ideal, but .... I don't want to just "dump" him off at the first or even second meeting. I couldn't. I want him to look forward to going to this place, so if it is going to work out, at the final drop off, he would be happy to go there. Does that make sense?

Yes, I'm overthinking and I don't care. I have to do this in a way that my heart only shatters and doesn't explode.
 
#111 ·
sounds like a plan, I would do some visits as well, and let him stay longer/alone when you think he's comfortable and your comfortable with the situation.

This could be GOOD, you would know where he was, could probably visit, let them do a trial time with him after the visits..

You'll know if it's right..
 
#115 ·
If they have another dog don't do intros on their property.
Take the dogs to a neutral location and walk but no nose touching for a while until you observe how they're doing together.
 
#116 ·
That lead on a home for Tucker sounds great - the young boy sure will be ecstatic! My first 2 GSDs were adopted as adults, and they both meant the world to me. They bonded with me without any troubles at all. In fact, my first one saw his old owner every now and then, but he didn't give him any special attention. I just wanted to let you know how much us "new" owners appreciate the unselfishness of you "old" owners. I know it hurts real bad though. More hugs!
 
#118 ·
I started a new thread about the actual re-homing. Please use it to talk to me about that aspect so everything doesn't get all mixed in together: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...a-cont-search-begins-how-properly-rehome.html

If anyone has further info/advice, etc about the boys and issues between them, pls do post here. I really appreciate everything I can get on that. Even if I am looking to rehoming, it isn't as though it'll happen tomorrow and we still need help/guidance with management until the day comes.

Thank you everyone.
 
#120 ·
Its interesting...I believe these dogs come from a husky/GSD breeding. Kind of crazy that one is so much GSD (Bailey) and the other is so much husky (Tucker). I just keep thinking of all the issues going on and they're exactly the stuff you'd expect from the two breeds.

Kind of cool and interesting...and what scares me about mixed breeds that are so different. Like people that want a lab/GSD mix. I just go...you won't know what dog you have until 18 months old!!! Sound familiar? All observations though and absolutely nothing wrong with giving a mixed breed a home when it needs one!!! It's just another reason not to mix breeds so that you can have "the best of both worlds."

And with all we have learned about these two dogs over the last year + its interesting to think about their development and how cool of a real life experiment this was. There was so much involved in this whole thing! Littermates...two breeds...different upbringings...neutering/not neutering...I could go on and on. And it just shows how even someone that is so dedicated has a hard time dealing with a situation like this. Makes me think of the majority of dog owners out there that wouldn't go nearly as far for their dogs as chelle has and what would happen to those dogs if they were seeing these kinds of issues.

Chelle...take your experience and write a book!!!
 
#121 ·
Its interesting...I believe these dogs come from a husky/GSD breeding. Kind of crazy that one is so much GSD (Bailey) and the other is so much husky (Tucker). I just keep thinking of all the issues going on and they're exactly the stuff you'd expect from the two breeds.

Kind of cool and interesting...and what scares me about mixed breeds that are so different. Like people that want a lab/GSD mix. I just go...you won't know what dog you have until 18 months old!!! Sound familiar? All observations though and absolutely nothing wrong with giving a mixed breed a home when it needs one!!! It's just another reason not to mix breeds so that you can have "the best of both worlds."

And with all we have learned about these two dogs over the last year + its interesting to think about their development and how cool of a real life experiment this was. There was so much involved in this whole thing! Littermates...two breeds...different upbringings...neutering/not neutering...I could go on and on. And it just shows how even someone that is so dedicated has a hard time dealing with a situation like this. Makes me think of the majority of dog owners out there that wouldn't go nearly as far for their dogs as chelle has and what would happen to those dogs if they were seeing these kinds of issues.

Chelle...take your experience and write a book!!!
It is very interesting! These two have taught me A LOT and more every day. I agree with your other comments; you don't know what you'll get in a mixed pairing. You don't even 100% know in a purebred pairing, but this is to another extreme.

Tucker is somewhat the oddball of the litter. The only one with light brown eyes. The only one with one ear down. (Though that could've been an unaddressed medical thing, no way to know.) He is the biggest and heavy boned more so than the others. Whatever Husky is in him has shown thru some stubborness (could also be due to no training when young and not as much as he should be getting now,) and his recent desire to fence jump. His personality is very Lab like, though.

Here is his dad: (Clearly not purebred Husky)





One of the sons, interesting mix --

 
#123 ·
The ears make you think that for sure! At one time I thought maybe Husky/GSD cross, but that doesn't explain the coat. Coat is all wrong for either one.

He's also fairly small, about 45 pounds. All of his offspring outweigh him.

So clearly his parents were mixes as well. I have come to believe some mix of GSD, Husky and Lab. I've always wondered about this and am always curious as to people's opinions on what they see in him. I keep saying Lab partly due to coat, partly due to Tucker's looks & size and much based on behavior. (Bailey very dog friendly, except to his brother, grrrrr, Tucker being friendly to everything,) Who knows!!!!! :)
 
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