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Convoluted issues; resource guarding, littermates, you name it. (long)

12K views 129 replies 31 participants last post by  Shade 
#1 ·
I've been trying to gather my thoughts for several days on how to write this post. Sorry for the length.

Dogs being discussed:

~ Bailey, male, 16 months, recently neutered, still on light duty.
~ Tucker, his brother, same age obviously, brought into household at abt 9 months and neutered soon after.
~ Suri, female, 5 yr old Shiba Inu, the "cop" of the house. Fearless.
~ Dolly, female, 9-1/2 y/o American Eskimo, very gentle personality, mostly blind.

Before, I might've said Bailey's resource guarding came on suddenly, but that's not true. As I thought about it, as I re-read my own posts, it was working up -- very slowly -- but it was escalating right under my eyes.

Tucker and Bailey, the two littermates got along very well for quite awhile. (months) Then a few tiffs. I learned as I went what the signals were. Things escalated and the tiffs became closer together. Always Bailey starting it.

It was resource guarding. It was guarding me and food.

I did recognize this and learned to change my own ways of dealing with things. There was improvement.

Then one day I was making dinner and opened the fridge and Tucker was right there... and Bailey went at him. So the food guarding had jumped a peg on seriousness level. Prior to this, I could be out in the kitchen for an hour or more, cooking, dropping things on accident and no fights or issues. The dogs might rush to pick up the thing I'd dropped, but no fights. For months we could work obedience, dogs side by side being given commands and no problem. Their one-year old birthday pic shows two dogs in a stay with birthday cake in front of them; no problem....

(Note: the food guarding is only towards dogs. Bailey has no issue with me putting my hands in his food bowl, walking by, etc. He's perfectly fine with humans being near his food. Also, this issue hadn't really come to attn because all dogs are fed seperately.)

THEN things ramped up with a bad backyard fight. First fight that seriously scared me. First fight I couldn't break up physically or by voice. I had Tucker on a tieout (he'd fence jumped recently) and Bailey free. I was walking between them when it broke out, but not paying attn to either one. I ran for the water hose, but by then time I got ready to spray, it was over. It was horribly nasty sounding and appearing. I told Bailey to go inside and crated him up. I examined each dog and strangely, neither one had a single mark? Isn't that odd?

I then went with keeping Bailey on lead indoors. This turned out to be the wrong thing to do. I was advised this was a bad idea, but didn't get that info in time... I had Bailey tethered to me and my blind girl came stumbling up and he went at her. :( Scared the crap out of her. Gave her a teeny mark below her eye, which did make the area swell and upset me tremendously. I barely interacted with Bailey for the next couple of days, I was so upset. I am quite sure the tethering was the problem there, as he doesn't pay any mind to her otherwise. I feel horrible for that.

I allowed no interaction between boys for a couple of days. I then slowly let them be around one another. Bailey would hackle almost instantly -- all the way down his back. Tucker would hackle in reaction to Bailey. Once I distracted them with our routine game of fetch, they'd focus on that and ignore each other. If Tucker got too close to Bailey, though, Bailey would hackle up. It was tense and I'm sure my tension did add to that, even if I was trying to be cool.

I was being pretty strong-handed at this point with Bailey. Watching him like a hawk and reprimanding him. I had the hose already turned on and waiting, just in case.

It was like Bailey had taken an overnight dislike to Tucker. These are dogs that have laid together, played together, licked each others ears and other parts... dogs that enjoyed one another for months.

So we had a few days of some rather high tension, but no further fights. Then Bailey was neutered, so we're on full rotate/crate now.

So now I am wondering how to "re-introduce" the boys when Bailey's neuter has healed. Start from stratch, dogs on either side of a fence? Get a behaviorist involved?

I should add -- my Shiba Inu, (Suri,) is the *bomb*. This girl puts up with absolutely nothing. Neither dog challenges Suri. I have *none* of Bailey's issues with Suri -- he doesn't dare challenge her and he knows it and doesn't try.

Is Bailey just being a bully?? Tucker is a nice dog that never instigates anything. Dolly is an even sweeter dog that never instigates anything.. and here is Bailey, going after those two -- but never the dog that will not put up with his crap - (Suri) ?? I tell you, he wouldn't even begin to get snotty with that girl. She is definitely the strongest personality in the dog end of the household. She 'controls' the blind girl by not letting her get too close to the steps when I've accidentally left the door open... she is the true "cop" of the house.... She's sure won a lot of my respect the way she bosses these big white boys around.

But anyway... I am sorry that was long and quite involved. Funny how life was pretty good for awhile with this pack and now we have this upset.

Rotate/crate will continue until I feel Bailey is completely past neuter healing and that's why I am posting now... trying to get some ideas and info for when real life resumes.

And yes, re-homing Tucker is on the table, but that's not what I want to hear at this point. I'd be very interested in hearing ideas as to management, my failures, what I should do on the re-introduction, future management, etc.. I'm not saying I won't re-home, but I'd really prefer people just pick apart what I've said and find where I've failed, so I can find where I need to work on, what I can do different, etc..

Thank you very much if you made it this far. :)
 
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#49 ·
No, not entirely out of the question. This could be done with a little work and $$. It actually has entered my mind. Not for him to live out there, but for a better crate/rotate situation with more room for him.

Chelle, I am not vehement against you keeping both, I am just giving you an opinion based on what you presented. I go into people's homes and provide consultations for behavioral issues. I take into consideration the dog or dogs, the owners or handlers, the environment , and use many many years of experience is coming to a conclusion. I do not look at these things lightly(people pay me good money for my services), nor do I let my feelings or likes interfere with giving a truthful assessment of their situation. Most of the times problems are the result of the lack of knowledge of the owners thus letting things grow gradually that they didn't recognize where it would go, and lack of knowledge of the way dogs think and exploit things in a relationship. From your original posts, there were many things on the part of your handling of things as you explained, the dynamics of the dogs, and the environment you were proceeding in; that screamed at me where this was going. So I gave a candid assessment based on probability.....hoping it wouldn't get there but being dishonest if I didn't say what my experiences led me to conclude. Now some people here disagree with me and maybe have better insights into your situation than I, I will be very happy for you if the end result supports their advice. I just try to be honest from my perspective, not vehement!
Thank you for elaborating.

This has been a long drama and I've posted about it ever since Tucker came here last February. Many kind people have followed that saga and I've posted a lot as things came up.

I'll admit to a lack of knowledge, but I can learn. I want to exhaust my options but need to know what they are. I am looking for insight, ideas, feedback etc on this board and that's what I am getting.

If you have a moment to tell me what things "screamed" at you initially, it may be very helpful to me.
 
#44 ·
FTR I think anyone can make it work, I honestly don't buy the "siblings will fight" thing.
Of all the dogs here ever, we have opposite sex siblings that are so bonded and non-aggressive they can be crated together.
I don't know, though, if these boys know they are siblings. I doubt they even do.
Maybe it's the age thing-- both same age?

But I do think it can work.

Even if all you ever did was crate/rotate, it can work ;)
 
#48 ·
FTR I think anyone can make it work, I honestly don't buy the "siblings will fight" thing.
You don't have to buy it, but it's true nonetheless. Just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't happen... and there is a buttload of evidence, experience from others on this forum including accomplished trainers.

Of all the dogs here ever, we have opposite sex siblings that are so bonded and non-aggressive they can be crated together.
Opposite sex siblings are very different from same-sex siblings. Often you have the opposite problem with opposite-sex siblings: they over-bond to each other and the human becomes a secondary concern, such that if the pair decides to do something you don't want them to, you will have a very tough time convincing them otherwise.

Sibling pairs CAN work very well if they are working dogs that need to cooperate with each other: sled dogs, hunting dogs, livestock guardians, herding dogs, etc. But the dynamic has to be very clear, each dog in its own role. With pet dogs that have no clear-cut job, it's more problematic.

I have never raised siblings together, but once a friend of mine got a male pup from the same litter as my female pup. As youngsters, the two would get together for play about once a week. At around 7-8 months of age, they started to fight and we could no longer let them play together.

As a groomer, I see several clients who own littermate dogs, or dogs close in age raised together. The opposite-sex pairs tend to have the "Where the Red Fern Grows" thing going on. Overbonding, separation anxiety, etc. They may be relatively well-adjusted pet dogs, but they are two halves of a whole, and tend to stress out when separated.

The same-sex pairs tend to fight if one dog is not clearly, consistently submissive. I have one client with three Jack Russells, a mother and her two sons. Those dogs are completely out of control and the owner is at his wits' end... he says it's the biggest mistake he ever made. The three of them all fight like Tasmanian devils. Granted, the owner is pretty clueless about dog training and behavior, so he let the issues slide and has at this point completely given up. He is overwhelmed, as most average pet owners would be.

To say that "anyone" can make it work is dangerous advice, IMO. Yes, it can work, with a lot of diligence on the owners' part, but it is rarely an ideal situation for pet dogs. Some breeds are easier than others, some individuals are easier than others. With some breeds, like Scottish Deerhounds, it is common practice to raise littermates together, and any issues that crop up are relatively mild if the pups are managed properly. But with GSDs it is dicey, and often way more than the average pet owner can comfortably manage.
 
#46 · (Edited)
Chelle, I am not vehement against you keeping both, I am just giving you an opinion based on what you presented. I go into people's homes and provide consultations for behavioral issues. I take into consideration the dog or dogs, the owners or handlers, the environment , and use many many years of experience is coming to a conclusion. I do not look at these things lightly(people pay me good money for my services), nor do I let my feelings or likes interfere with giving a truthful assessment of their situation. Most of the times problems are the result of the lack of knowledge of the owners thus letting things grow gradually that they didn't recognize where it would go, and lack of knowledge of the way dogs think and exploit things in a relationship. From your original posts, there were many things on the part of your handling of things as you explained, the dynamics of the dogs, and the environment you were proceeding in; that screamed at me where this was going. So I gave a candid assessment based on probability.....hoping it wouldn't get there but being dishonest if I didn't say what my experiences led me to conclude. Now some people here disagree with me and maybe have better insights into your situation than I, I will be very happy for you if the end result supports their advice. I just try to be honest from my perspective, not vehement!
 
#76 ·
I go into people's homes and provide consultations for behavioral issues. I take into consideration the dog or dogs, the owners or handlers, the environment , and use many many years of experience is coming to a conclusion.
No mention of a "magic fix" there, just lots of different factors that all add up to a practical decision. Jeez, you're a stubborn woman chelle! :D You keep saying that it's all up to you, when even the pro says it isn't.
 
#51 ·
I don't think they remember each other after that long of a separation. Yes this does occur with littermates and that has an added caveat because they grow up together their entire lives. Then one day they'll turn on each other after living together for a year and a half with no issues for example. In this situation, it has more to do with the same age and sex.
 
#59 ·
I don't think they remember each other after that long of a separation. Yes this does occur with littermates and that has an added caveat because they grow up together their entire lives. Then one day they'll turn on each other after living together for a year and a half with no issues for example. In this situation, it has more to do with the same age and sex.
Agreed.

....So, crates, kennel, yard. It works for us. But I also have going for my that my dogs are 100% respectful of our fence, and I'm not one of those who has qualms letting my dogs spend time in the yard on nice days without me there. It's a nice, fairly secluded yard, lots of trees for shade. If I had to live in such a fashion that one had to literally be crated all the time (a true crate and rotate situation) I would probably have rehomed one years ago.
Tucker is respecting the fence now... but that's another story I'll update on the other post. He is by no means 100% trustworthy outdoors alone and I haven't left him alone out there. If he alone outside, he's on the tieout, unfortunately. When I'm out there with him, he's earned being leash-free. This helps tremendously in exercising.

Bailey is 100% trustworthy alone outside; he doesn't try to go over or under. He has no desire to leave the yard, really. But, he doesn't want to be out there without me so he whines at the door. Sigh.

When one is outside, the other is free in the house. BUT, then I have to go back inside to crate up the loose dog, let the other dog inside, crate that dog up, release the crated dog to go outside, then return inside to let the newly crated dog out... Fun times. Well, gee, on the positive side, they're sure learning the crate command very well. :crazy:

Just because you haven't had good luck with siblings doesn't mean that everyone has the same problems you have experienced not only did I have brothers their entire lives but I've had many friends over the years who have also had siblings with no problems. There is a "buttload" of proof that siblings can and do get along if managed right. I think the major problem here is all the advise has scared Chelle so bad she is jumping in to soon rather than letting them work it out. That being said I haven't actually seen the dogs fight so I could be totally wrong which is why I strongly suggest she find a local expert she trusts and have them observe the dogs.
You are right, all the gloom and doom has scared me. Made me feel hopeless. I am not a quitter and I don't want to do so until I've really exhausted all my options. No, of course I do not want it to come to a bad, bloody fight. I'm set up for another five weeks of crate/rotate so I plan to use that time wisely; reading, asking questions, learning, etc.

just be careful that their tension and fighting doesnt slip over to the other 2 female dogs... tension will start to build up and the other 2 females might start to feel the heat as well..
Thank you, good advice and I will be careful. I've already seen a certain amount of this, actually. This change in routine has upset the balance we had.

......Call me crazy, but I think that two dogs who hate each other would be happier in separate homes, and I suspect a lot of people feel the same way.
I would agree with this, but the issue is entirely Bailey. Tucker has been the little miscreant who pursues play a little overly-rambunctiously at times, but it is always Bailey who brings forth the aggression. Tucker does not hate Bailey at all. Tucker actually submits to Bailey. Bailey doesn't hate Tucker, either, but his issues with guarding seem to bring on the problems. This is where I need to learn more and get a firmer grip on guarding issues. I have weeks to do this, so must make some changes in my handling. I don't think I'm wording things right here but guarding is at the heart of this thing now I think.

Granted, the last fight and all the hackling for a couple of days was not about guarding anything... that was a brand new development. Hormones? I don't know.

I'm not arguing with you but you do also understand that coming to that realization and then actually rehoming one of the dogs is much easier said than done ;)
True. Come to find out, Petfinder no longer allows classified ads. Only rescue group ads. I contacted one inquiring about a courtesy post. I'll contact a couple more. I'm looking at this as though I'm in it for the long haul. My Craigslist ad brought exactly one response: a woman said she'd take Tucker to be her other WGSD male's buddy to live on a large farm as an outdoor dog. Really tempting. :smirk: ... NOT!

I've already given that it *can* work, given the right dogs under the right circumstances. But it very commonly *doesn't* work. I've seen it become disasterous enough times that I think it would be irresponsible of me to say "Sure, it'll be fine, don't worry!" I'm glad you've had good luck with your brothers, but because I have seen it go bad so many times, I will never recommend that people keep two siblings together unless they really know what they are doing.

I hardly think she's doing anything "too soon". She's been agonizing over this. I trust that she has her dogs' best interest at heart, and deep down she knows what is best for everyone involved. And I know she's having a tough time with these issues, which I certainly understand.

The thing is, it would be terrible if one or both dogs need to go to the vet for sutures after a serious fight, so rather than "letting them work it out", I'm recommending the safest course of action, that IMO is in the best interest of everyone involved.
True enough.
 
#53 ·
Yes, it can work. I've done crate and rotate with my almost 9 yr old female shepherd in regards to my other female dog for almost 8 years now. It is NOT fun, and I'm not perfect, there have been two slip ups over the years. My issue is a little different than chelles, in that one of my GSD's is likely a mix of a little something else, and is small at only 55 lbs vs the other who is standard sized at 70 lbs. The smaller one is VERY skittish and submissive, and does not fight back unless attacked. The other one will seek her out, given the chance, and lay into her. Both slip ups on my part resulted in massive vet bills and weeks of rehab for the smaller GSD who was attacked, with minimal injuries on the attacker. It is an outright attack, not a fight, or a squabble. My husband is a VERY strong big guy at 6'3" and has been a police officer working the worst areas of this city for almost 17 years and it was all he could do to get my girl off my other girl during the last fight. It was THAT bad. I would never wish this on anyone.

In our case, here's our set up. We have a decent sized house, a good sized fully fenced yard, a 30 x 18 outdoor kennel (concrete and mulch) and crates. I "crate and rotate" but in reality, unless it's crazy cold or crazy hot, one is in the yard or kennel, and one is inside. We have to be VERY careful about knowing where they are at all times. It sounds easy, but over time (years in our case) you get complacent (sp?) and slips have happened. Its's hard to forgive yourself when it does, but the alternative is rehoming one and I have had them both too long to do that.

So, crates, kennel, yard. It works for us. But I also have going for my that my dogs are 100% respectful of our fence, and I'm not one of those who has qualms letting my dogs spend time in the yard on nice days without me there. It's a nice, fairly secluded yard, lots of trees for shade. If I had to live in such a fashion that one had to literally be crated all the time (a true crate and rotate situation) I would probably have rehomed one years ago.
 
#57 ·
I think that two dogs who hate each other would be happier in separate homes, and I suspect a lot of people feel the same way.
I'm not arguing with you but you do also understand that coming to that realization and then actually rehoming one of the dogs is much easier said than done ;)
 
#61 ·
Letting this boy go will be the most painful experience I will know in many years and that is not a lighthearted statement. I'm a 42 year old woman who has known much heartbreak and this will top it all. My eyes tear up and my gut twists to even think about saying goodbye to Tuckies.
 
#63 · (Edited)
shepherdmom said:
Originally Posted by Freestep
I've already given that it *can* work, given the right dogs under the right circumstances. But it very commonly *doesn't* work.

It commonly works all over the place. It is only in your experience it doesn't work.
Haha! It's "only" in my experience that it doesn't work?? I'm the only person in the world who has seen this? Explain to me why so many others are saying the same thing that I am.

I will never recommend that people keep two siblings together unless they really know what they are doing.
and who are you? Are you a trainer? What are your qualifications?
I might ask you the same question, since you seem to "know" that I am wrong. No, I am not a professional trainer. I have worked professionally with animals for over 20 years, first as a vet tech, then as a groomer. I am in fairly close contact with most of my clients, as I see them every 6 weeks or so, and I get regular updates on how dogs are doing in their homes. I see their behavior when in my shop.

Also, in training my own dogs in obedience, Schutzhund, etc., I have been in clubs and seen many others training their dogs. I've had the pleasure to work with many good trainers (and some not so good), and I've seen the results of training over time both with my own dogs and others.

So, what are YOUR credentials?
 
#66 · (Edited)
I have not read this entire thread but just wanted to say I sold one of my dogs recently and it was the best decision. I am convinced of this (as is everyone involved including the breeder) now after seeing the dog I sold with his new owner and new pack. My dogs were not littermates but I'm not really sure that matters. I don't think dogs really give each other any more leeway because a dog is a blood relative or littermate. I had two dogs of the same sex close in age so I knew it would always be a gamble. The issues between them were not the only reason I sold the dog but what I wanted to say is that now that those issues have been removed/resolved *everyone* in the household is feeling better. The crate and rotate thing just did not work for us, not with the amount of space we did not have and with the amount of tension all of the dogs were feeling (including my other dog who had nothing to do with any of this and who is my oldest dog and thus should have the highest consideration). Yes I could have MADE it work but in our case it was not in the best interest of any of the dogs or the people. I decided before I owned any of the dogs I have now that I'm not going a crate-and-rotate lifestyle. Because of how "open" our house is (family and friends coming and going) I can't have a situation where someone could make a simple mistake and have it end in blood. I'm also not willing to alter my entire lifestyle and put strain on my marriage when a perfect solution fell into my lap (selling one dog to a very good friend who was a better fit as far as temperament and training style anyway). I saw my dog and spent some time with him this past weekend, a month and a half after selling him, and I was worried I would be really upset but honestly it just reaffirmed my decision and I was very happy to see him thriving with his new family and also the amount of stress and anxiety that has been relieved from my household. I had no idea how much stress my other dogs were under until it was gone.

My experience does not change how I feel about any of my dogs and does not lead me to make blanket statements about which sexes of dogs can live together, whether littermates can, bla bla bla. All I will say is that some dogs just can't stand each other and there is no other explanation. None of my dogs are dog-aggressive; they all have grown up around other dogs and still live in households with multiple dogs, do training and events with tons of other dogs (like flyball where 8-12 dogs are always running around off leash at once). Sometimes your only options are permanent separation or rehoming a dog. It's up to the individual to decide which is best for the household.
 
#72 ·
......Yes I could have MADE it work but in our case it was not in the best interest of any of the dogs or the people. I decided before I owned any of the dogs I have now that I'm not going a crate-and-rotate lifestyle. Because of how "open" our house is (family and friends coming and going) I can't have a situation where someone could make a simple mistake and have it end in blood. I'm also not willing to alter my entire lifestyle and put strain on my marriage when a perfect solution fell into my lap (selling one dog to a very good friend who was a better fit as far as temperament and training style anyway). I saw my dog and spent some time with him this past weekend, a month and a half after selling him, and I was worried I would be really upset but honestly it just reaffirmed my decision and I was very happy to see him thriving with his new family and also the amount of stress and anxiety that has been relieved from my household. I had no idea how much stress my other dogs were under until it was gone.....
And this is in large part my struggle now. I can work on this, I can call in trainers. I can hope and pray, learn, read, etc.. but I still may not end up with what I want. (Dogs to get along as they once did.)

I'm one week into rotate/crate due to Bailey's neuter. It sucks. It sucks BAD. I hate living this way. It might be different if each dog didn't mind being outside alone for a time, but neither one wants to be. They cry, they bark. I am running inside and outside non-stop. This is exhausting and no way to live for any of us. I wish a wonderful home would drop into my lap, as did with you.

The house is definitely under stress. The cat probably even feels it. :crazy:

Chelle, ....you wanted to know what screamed at me? Well......all advice is not equal although it may be kind and well intended. Some of the advice you were getting and appeared to favor seemed to me to not fully understand the dynamics of what was taking place.

First, siblings of the same sex and of opposite sex can get along......but once major skirmish start taking place the dynamics change. Now rank positions enter in the equation. So if you are at the top then the aggressive brother sees himself as number two and will punish the other brother for certain scenarios. Now if you were willing to alternately crate them.....okay that would work. But you were leaning toward following the advice of those that were suggesting the ways to show them equal favor. Unfortunately, the dominant male is going to punish the submissive male for receiving favor from you(among other things he will punish him for). So your desire for these two to get along and "share" your affections was not going to happen once the fighting had started. And in fact, inadvertently, your attention to tucker is going to create some of this. This is just one of the dynamics that I read that led me to believe this will get worse, or else Bailey will make Tucker live a life of submission. ( this is all based on you trying to make them get along like old times in an open environment.....and your posts clearly showed this is what you wanted )

This doesn't even take into account the lack of knowledge and experience you have with a situation like this. It was obvious that some of the people advising you we're not factoring these elements and wanted to be " helpful".
But Chelle, dog fighting and indiscriminate aggression are two things that can cause injury to dog and person.....for those reasons sound advice and decisions carry a responsibility from my perspective.....and feelings have to take a back seat to possibilities. I hope things work out for you, Tucker, and Bailey.
This all makes sense to me and thank you for taking the time to explain it. I get it and I know it to be true, as I've seen it. I did find ignoring each kept the peace. Saving the lovey-dovey stuff for when each dog was separate and basically, behaving very dictator-like. Truth is.. I don't want that. :( When it is just the girls and one of the boys, I can behave any way I want; I can love up on any dog I want. THAT is what I want in my home. I do hate this vying for my attn and constantly being on guard so the other isn't focusing on that.

As far as knowledge... I am not to the level of a great many folks here, but I can say I have learned a lot in the past six months. A person must start somewhere, yes? Now, granted, I don't wish my 'learning experiences' to be at the cost of injury to either dog. I really am not oblivious. I am not a weak personality with these dogs, but there is a learning curve, yes.

Listen to Cliff, Chelle. He just described my household with two unrelated females. I can not show Sierra any attention or she seems to "claim" me. Then she starts attacking Jax. It builds and builds with Jax attacking her. Sierra is a Boxer with little teeth but goes straight for the throat and holds there. Jax fights defensively and always manages to send Sierra for stitches.

As long as I show her no attention, we have relative peace at my house. We went to my trainer with both dogs who gave us exercises to do to help the pack dynamics. Started them and Jax reinjured her knee. I do believe that has helped even with the little we did but we will never be able to let our guard down.

If you willing to rehome one, then you need to get a professional trainer to help you.
I assume you mean if I am "not" willing to rehome one.. but yes, you are right. I will need help if they remain. I am very curious to know about the exercises?

My opinion:

* It is the age/gender issue, not the sibling issue.
* It is NOT a given that they can never get along.
* It is OK if you decide to keep both.
* It is OK if you decide to rehome Tucker (although I know it will be HARD. I couldn't do it personally, but hats off to you if you can.)

I'd keep them separated 100% of the time for the time being. Get a behaviorist (with good recommendations) and consider keeping them separate at all times.

That being said, has there been problems with the "cop" present? If not, would it be worth trying to keep her in the mix at all times to keep everyone in their place?
There has been a bit of nonsense with her present, but she rushes in afterwards, as if to say, hey you idiots, what were you thinking? She's certainly bright enough to steer clear when it is amped up.

I must have missed that "advice"... I'd have jumped all over that if I'd seen it! That sounds more like advice on how to START fights.

Chelle, both Liesje's and Cliff's posts are spot-on. I hope reading them creates a "light bulb" experience, so that you can learn from this situation, and stop beating yourself up.
Nah, no lightbulb, as I've understood much of this.. but I am gaining knowledge for sure. Stop beating myself? Maybe a little. I want a good life for Tucker. Him always submitting to Bailey is not a good life. I want better for him.

I've found that when a dog I know is sold or rehomed, it ends up being for the better *for the dog* (at least among people I know, who are not people that get dogs on a whim or rehome them over trivial issues). The guilt is generally from other people who are not even involved in the situation, usually have never even met the dog or people involved. I realized any guilt I felt over selling Pan was because of how I thought I'd be perceived by others. After actually seeing Pan with his new owner all of that was erased and people who think they know everything without ever having met me or my dogs can just shove it :)
I guess I'm the type of person who is afraid to give in too soon. What if there is a magical fix and I didn't find it? What if I didn't try hard enough, work hard enough?
 
#67 ·
Chelle, ....you wanted to know what screamed at me? Well......all advice is not equal although it may be kind and well intended. Some of the advice you were getting and appeared to favor seemed to me to not fully understand the dynamics of what was taking place.
First, siblings of the same sex and of opposite sex can get along......but once major skirmish start taking place the dynamics change. Now rank positions enter in the equation. So if you are at the top then the aggressive brother sees himself as number two and will punish the other brother for certain scenarios. Now if you were willing to alternately crate them.....okay that would work. But you were leaning toward following the advice of those that were suggesting the ways to show them equal favor. Unfortunately, the dominant male is going to punish the submissive male for receiving favor from you(among other things he will punish him for). So your desire for these two to get along and "share" your affections was not going to happen once the fighting had started. And in fact, inadvertently, your attention to tucker is going to create some of this. This is just one of the dynamics that I read that led me to believe this will get worse, or else Bailey will make Tucker live a life of submission. ( this is all based on you trying to make them get along like old times in an open environment.....and your posts clearly showed this is what you wanted )
This doesn't even take into account the lack of knowledge and experience you have with a situation like this. It was obvious that some of the people advising you we're not factoring these elements and wanted to be " helpful".
But Chelle, dog fighting and indiscriminate aggression are two things that can cause injury to dog and person.....for those reasons sound advice and decisions carry a responsibility from my perspective.....and feelings have to take a back seat to possibilities. I hope things work out for you, Tucker, and Bailey.
 
#70 ·
But you were leaning toward following the advice of those that were suggesting the ways to show them equal favor.
I must have missed that "advice"... I'd have jumped all over that if I'd seen it! That sounds more like advice on how to START fights.

Chelle, both Liesje's and Cliff's posts are spot-on. I hope reading them creates a "light bulb" experience, so that you can learn from this situation, and stop beating yourself up.
 
#68 ·
Listen to Cliff, Chelle. He just described my household with two unrelated females. I can not show Sierra any attention or she seems to "claim" me. Then she starts attacking Jax. It builds and builds with Jax attacking her. Sierra is a Boxer with little teeth but goes straight for the throat and holds there. Jax fights defensively and always manages to send Sierra for stitches.

As long as I show her no attention, we have relative peace at my house. We went to my trainer with both dogs who gave us exercises to do to help the pack dynamics. Started them and Jax reinjured her knee. I do believe that has helped even with the little we did but we will never be able to let our guard down.

If you willing to rehome one, then you need to get a professional trainer to help you.
 
#69 ·
My opinion:

* It is the age/gender issue, not the sibling issue.
* It is NOT a given that they can never get along.
* It is OK if you decide to keep both.
* It is OK if you decide to rehome Tucker (although I know it will be HARD. I couldn't do it personally, but hats off to you if you can.)

I'd keep them separated 100% of the time for the time being. Get a behaviorist (with good recommendations) and consider keeping them separate at all times.

That being said, has there been problems with the "cop" present? If not, would it be worth trying to keep her in the mix at all times to keep everyone in their place?
 
#71 ·
I've found that when a dog I know is sold or rehomed, it ends up being for the better *for the dog* (at least among people I know, who are not people that get dogs on a whim or rehome them over trivial issues). The guilt is generally from other people who are not even involved in the situation, usually have never even met the dog or people involved. I realized any guilt I felt over selling Pan was because of how I thought I'd be perceived by others. After actually seeing Pan with his new owner all of that was erased and people who think they know everything without ever having met me or my dogs can just shove it :)
 
#73 ·
Unfortunately, the dominant male is going to punish the submissive male for receiving favor from you(among other things he will punish him for). So your desire for these two to get along and "share" your affections was not going to happen once the fighting had started.
This is great.
You know, I've seen this here, even on this board, people saying, when one dog steals something, take it from the dog who stole it and give it back to the dog they stole it from.
I think that is bad advice, personally. That's how we THINK it ought to work. If it was, say, human children, that's what would work.

But in the dog world, my experience is, the "top dog" who stole the whatever, will get back with the underdog, who you just showed favor to.
And they'll wait until your back is turned, to do it!

I think the better way to handle it, is to take the item and remove it totally. No hard feelings between the dogs, peace is kept, and above all, you're "powerful" because you removed said object completely from the situation.

In your case, chelle, the object is you... I think I posted this a while back? Did you see it?
Can We Help You Keep Your Pet? Other Animals

And in checking - http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/archives/many.txt
 
#77 ·
....In your case, chelle, the object is you... I think I posted this a while back? Did you see it?
Can We Help You Keep Your Pet? Other Animals

And in checking - http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/archives/many.txt
No, I hadn't seen that but just read both. Very interesting, especially the Shirley Chong one. Gives me some things to think about.

So what if you DID try and work hard enough? How much is enough? What about YOU??

You know there is no "magical" fix, only hard work and dedication. But your first two quotes emphasize that you want to live a normal life, able to relax and be yourself, be comfortable in your own household. Who wouldn't want that?? I know I do! The idea that you should have to "try" and "work" so hard just to keep these two dogs together defeats its own purpose. So maybe those two are able to live in the same household without bloody battles, but where does that leave YOU? Frazzled, stressed, at your wits' end, playing a role you don't like and you don't want to play, never letting your guard down.

As much as you want it to be, I doubt there will ever be a time in the future when the two brothers play and love on each other like they did in the good old days. I think the best you can expect at this point is for them to ignore or tolerate each other--and only if you change your whole lifestyle to a thing you do not like.

As much as others may try to lay a guilt trip on you about rehoming a dog... unless they have walked in your shoes, they have absolutely nothing constructive to say and you should not waste a moment of your time with them.
I can't lie; I long for a normal life again. Nothing's been normal since Tuckie came here. We had some really good times, granted. Sure started VERY rocky, but then was so good.... so good. Watching and playing and working with them both was a major highlight in my life. Taking that first birthday pic with their cakes.. was very joyous. And I do mean 'joyous' -- deeply satisfying. Not many things bring that level of joy, but that did. All those nights spent in the yard with them without any issues, watching them play... deeply joyous. Watching them roll around and kiss each other on the living room floor... deeply joyous. It is hard to accept it is over.

This hurts.

I am sorry to blather, but I am so appreciative that I can do so here. Bailey is definitely ready to be loose in the house during the workday, but due to Tuckie being here and that they clearly cannot be loose in the house together, I am *still* coming home at lunch twice per week and this is tiring and expensive. Been doing this for about ? 14 months now. I work 20 minutes away and have an hour lunch break. Yeah, I gotta fly! I am tired of it!!!!!! When I took Bails in as a pup, I knew I was in for the long haul, all those days driving home at lunch, but I thought that'd be over by now - and it would be without Tuckie. God I feel like an a-hole for saying that! I am a very loyal person who doesn't just give up... but maybe I'm just up against too much. I can't do this alone anymore. The roommate helps some, but it really takes more than that. I paid a friend $25 just tonight to spend 25 minutes with each dog out in the yard so I could have some peace. I was just too tired to do the run back and forth thing.

I feel so defeated.
 
#92 · (Edited)
Muzzling is a very short term solution at best.

chelle, did they actually cause each other damage? Bleeding wounds?
I should've waited to post that about the muzzling since I couldn't explain why I was asking. I did mean for short term. Just so I don't have to keep doing this in the house, out of the house thing non stop... Last night Tuckie got frustrated on his tieout and broke free. I don't know how, the line was not broken, nor were the clips... but there he was...

I am looking around at possibilities for rehoming. My CL ad yielded one nutjob and one maybe. A friend of a friend is interested and we're talking. I've given them the links to his pics and the webpage I made talking about everything from the start. The one rescue I contacted about a courtesy post said no, that without knowing the dog they can't "represent" him. Petfinder no longer does classifieds.

Clearly, this could take some time.

In the past there were a couple of scratches. Never a puncture wound of any kind. Even the couple of scratches were superficial and no blood. The last altercation left no marks whatsoever on either of them.

...I sure do wish you the best. You have gone above and beyond already.
Thank you.

... If you rehome Tucker, then he gets more attention, and your dogs get more attention, and things get less stressful for them and for you.
Thanks for your post and ideas. Tucker deserves to be the center of someone's universe. He does deserve a better life than here. This maybe wasn't so true before, when things were good and the boys were buddies, but it is true now. This crate/rotate actually is making each dog spend more time alone and/or crated. When I spend time with one, the other is crying. I'm goin a little nutty here. Ok, totally nutty. No one is getting proper exercise, either.

Chelle, is there any truth to the idea that you would rather keep Tucker but want to keep both because giving up Bailey would make you feel as I'd you've done something bad?
No. :) Bailey is my buddy in a way no dog has been. I love my girls, but Suri is independent, like a cat. Dolly is a sweet old girl and I adore her personality (sweet!) but she is getting older, doesn't care to be too active and is mostly blind and likes to just chill out.

I remember how my son's dog, Lexus (Bailey's mom) was so velcro to him and thought, wow, I like that. Now I have it. (And I don't mean in a resource guarding sort of way.) He rarely disobeys me and is actually pretty easy to handle. Could I have that level of bond with Tucker? Maybe, but I could never give up a dog I *already* have that bond with for a dog that only *maybe* I could have that bond with. Will Tucker always be an escape risk? Yes. As compared to Bailey, who will not leave the yard, it is definitely preferable!

I have put my heart, soul, oodles of $$ and tons of time into Bailey, his training, socialization, etc from an early age ... I can't do that with Tucker; I can't rewind the clock and raise him. Is he trainable? Sure. But do I want to, in large part, "start over" ? Honestly, no. Cruel, but honest. I love the results of the work with Bailey. I love telling him go upstairs, go downstairs, go to your room, to your crate, sit here, come here, blah... and he does it. I'm not fond of his love of eating Ivory soap, but I guess you can't have it all.

Tucker has some deficits (tendency to still jump up on occasion, when very excited, needing a very secure yard and some neck sensitivities...) BUT I think he is going to acclimate to a new home far, far better than Bailey ever could. And Tucker is genuinely friendly to everything. Bailey is standoffish to most strangers. He prefers to check 'em out at a distance and approach them, if at all, on his own time. Tucker is just right there -- hey! hey! look at me! pet me! I wuv you! I seriously believe Bailey got many more of the Shepherd genes than Tucker, who got mixed in with a Lab somehow.

Or at least that's the stuff my brain has come up with as I lay in bed at night and think about it all.
 
#87 ·
Muzzling will probably make it worse - for them. I've noticed muzzled dogs seem more likely to be on edge, they know they can't defend themselves, but still feel threatened, which as you can imagine is very stressful.

I didn't read the whole thread, but you can do all the training in the world, if these two are determined to dislike each other, you can't change it.

I had friends who had female siblings they had to separate. What they did instead of crate and rotate - which I really don't like - is they fenced off the area outside of the back door so the dog could have the kitchen and half on the yard to herself. And they put a tall gate in the kitchen door leading to the dining room, and rotated the dogs a couple times a week, so one got run of the rest of the house at a time, they did perfectly fine, no fence-fighting at all after they got used to the system. They were happy dogs.

It sucks when this happens, but I wish you the best of luck.
 
#88 ·
Many moons ago, I believe it was Carmen who said something to the effect that ( our dogs or pets should add to our lives not detract from them) or something to that effect.

It really opened my eyes to what extent people will go to trying to force something to work.

Jean and some like her have that ability to take difficult situations and work with dogs others wouldn't. I believe helping difficult dogs adds something to those individuals lives.

To most people though I believe all that stress and concern detracts from having anything that resembles a normal happy home. It's probably not good for your mental or physical health either.

I can't tell you what to do that would be best for you but it sure doesn't sound like having these dogs together is adding to your overall quality of life.

I sure do wish you the best. You have gone above and beyond already.
 
#89 ·
Many moons ago, I believe it was Carmen who said something to the effect that ( our dogs or pets should add to our lives not detract from them) or something to that effect.

.....

To most people though I believe all that stress and concern detracts from having anything that resembles a normal happy home. It's probably not good for your mental or physical health either.
This is dead on.
 
#90 ·
Dogs are supposed to lower your blood pressure, if they are raising it, then well, that isn't good.

The problem is that you have a vested interest in both dogs, or all four of your dogs. You like the dogs. You even love the dogs, and giving one up just feels like failing the dog.

This simply isn't the case. Some dogs are just not meant to be in the packs they are in. Some do best as an only. Some would be fine with a dog of the opposite sex.

You can do a better job than a LOT of people with each of four dogs than they do with just one. But, sometimes we do a disservice to the dog, to deny them with the opportunity to be the center of the universe, when, while we have them, they are one of many.

If you choose to keep and separate these dogs, what I do is I have some indoor/outdoor kennels, where they can go from and outdoor area, to a an area within the sun room separated by tall or covered x-pens, and then separated from the main part of the house by extra-tall baby gates that they cannot scale.

Then I swing a shower-board panel between the lower half of the house, and the upper half of the house, so I can keep a dog indoors, but away from the baby gates where the in/out dogs are. I have learned to swing gates shut behind me, and ensure that the board is up. And for the most part this is just a preventative, for while I have had some fights -- most of those girls are gone now, mostly I just prevent from the git-go. It is my pre-vent defense. But then all my girls are intact, and there is always someone in, going in, or coming out of heat.

In the last 5 years, there has been only the one scrimmage between Ninja and Jenna, and a quick chase down between Heidi and Gretta. One was a crate-failure, the other was a failure on my part to be sure the gate was shut before letting another out. But it is all training and management -- training me not to forget to change something, and managing the fencing.

But I signed up for this.

If you rehome Tucker, then he gets more attention, and your dogs get more attention, and things get less stressful for them and for you.
 
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