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When breeders advertise..'natural suspicion", is this a good thing or a bad thing?

19K views 168 replies 32 participants last post by  cliffson1 
#1 ·
When breeders advertise..'natural suspicion", is this a good thing or a bad thing?

There is a common thread here on the forum of "my dog is reactive, my dog barks at people standing alone, my dog hackles at an unusual object, my dog is suspicious of strange people, my dog barks when someone knocks at the door, etc."

So, in looking a some websites of what I consider reputable breeders, I see in the description of their breeding dogs.."natural suspicion". I beleive they are promoting this as a good thing.

Would it be wrong to think that this is exactly the reason the above problems are existing? But, what would a GSD be without natural suspicion?...would it be a golden retreiver? Are the problems occuring because the natural suspicion is not balanced with strong nerves? Or is it training problems or lack there-of? I feel there must be a delicate balance to allow the dog to express this element of its DNA without making it a basket case by trying to mold it into a golden retriever.

If GSD's are supposed to have "natural suspicion" then it seems like many of these "problems" are normal behavior and the handling of the dog needs modified to help it succeed. Things you might do with a lab or golden would not be appropriate for a gsd, thus the problems.

So, that is my theorizing for the day..back to the question : do you think natural suspicion is what you look for in a good example of a gsd?
 
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#3 ·
Are the problems occuring because the natural suspicion is not balanced with strong nerves?
Yes.

Most all GSDs have natural suspicion. But you MUST have strong nerves to go along with it, or you have the reactive, fear-aggressive temperament we see so often.

Socializing/training is a big part of it too. But if the pup doesn't have strong nerves, socializing can only go so far.

Personally, I wouldn't want to purchase a pup from someone who touts "natural suspicion" without saying something about nerve.
 
#4 ·
:thumbup: Totally agree, strong nerves are a must for a well balanced dog

But I would add, there is a difference between having a reactive dog and a aggressive dog. Nerves play a big part in how high of a threshold a dog has
 
#7 ·
True true

It is a part of the breed, so it makes sense for reputable breeders to want this in their dogs. The problem is, there are SO many breeders out there. I think it is really important for someone to see what kind of experience the breeder has in training and working their dogs to know whether or not the 'natral suspicion' is desired and true to the breed, or branched from weak nerves. Because too many breeders don't know the difference, hence the overwhelming amount of neurotic GSDs. Jackson's breeder definately didn't know the difference :mad: . It also takes some knowledge on the buyers part.
 
#8 · (Edited)
I believe the breed standard desired is "aloof around strangers" not "suspicious"? I can't see how a natural suspiciousness would be a desirable default trait, wouldn't that mean the dog is unable to make good judgements about his environment?
I adopted a rescue shepherd who is reactive and "has a natural suspicion" of anyone that approaches me or enters his territory he does not know. I have started training with a Certified Dog Behaviorist (CPDT-KA)(who describes him as "hyper-vigilant") and we are working to reduce that to a sociable level. Believe me, friends don't like it when they meet you on the street and your leashed "police dog" walks forward and eyeballs them ready to bite.
I think suspiciousness can be be all too easily learned by any dog of any breed given enough bad experiences.
 
#16 · (Edited)
Naturally suspicious and aloof are two totally different things and the naturally suspicious is a good thing because the dog is fully capable of making good judgements about the people around him. Your reactive dog isn't naturally suspicious, he's reactive and fearful. You can teach your dog to be fearful with bad experience, but, again, it's not the same thing.

Here's an example of a naturally suspicious dog: mine. I'm a night owl and regularly train in the middle of the night. Needless to say, I don't want to meet anyone else out there. On the rare occasion that someone is in the vicinity, my dogs will alert on them and watch them closely until they go away. There is no barking, no growling, no lunging, no aggression, just an alert watchfulness. They know there's no direct threat, but as it's in the middle of the night and unusual, they keep an eye on the stranger just to make sure. These same dogs are calm, cool, and collected during the day around all sorts of people, unless someone is doing something very freaky and potentially threatening, when they, again, would just watch them to make sure all is well. The ability to survey everyone around him in a calm and competent manner, watching for potential threats, but withholding any sort of aggression unless there's an immediate direct threat, is a naturally suspicious dog.

A dog without natural suspicion, like a lab, wouldn't give a weird stranger a second thought and would be more than happy to just run up to them for a good petting. It would never occur to this dog that anyone could be a potential threat and act accordingly.

A fearful, reactive dog, is inappropriately suspicious and treats everyone as a potential threat.

An aloof dog is just a dog that isn't interested in anyone other than his person petting or playing with him.
 
#11 ·
That's what I mean about projecting fear onto your dog. Say you're worried because your puppy is pulling and barking. I wouldn't worry about that at all because I would expect that. I wouldn't want whoever he was barking at to be frightened of course, but then I would say, "Boy, you have a big mouth for someone who wants to get attention. That's not a polite way to ask for it" or something like that, lol. And of course I'd know that I've got a long way to go as far as training goes - impulse control, manners, etc. But I wouldn't think there was anything "wrong" per se.

Or if you're afraid of a dark city street, or if you're afraid of an impending dog fight around loose dogs, or....endless possibilities.
 
#12 ·
Natural suspicion, IMO, is an excellent trait of the breed that you see sorely lacking in the breed today. Of course it should be accompanied by good nerve. If a breeder can't distinguish the differences in genetic aggressions, should they really be breeding? Or giving advice on aggression either for that matter?
You know the problem folks?, it is there are many people breeding that don't know good nerve or are breeding dogs with marginal nerve. These people can't afford to have natural suspicion, thus creating a trend towards the Lab/ Golden type temperament that has become so prevalent, that many think it is correct.
 
#15 ·
Sure, I'm biased, but I think my male is an ideal for the breed as far as temperament & nerve goes. I think there are a number of folks on here familiar with the lines that would support that. My male will *not* allow you in the door without me home and yeah you're gonna get a full-on show of aggression at the door and I'm fine with that, and he does *not* like people who he hasn't seen me be cool with first. Yet, a random kid can stumble up and pull on his ears and he will not react. He'll wish the kid wasn't poking his eyes and pulling his ears but he will tolerate it. And yet still, if you're an adult and showing aggression at us, he won't hesitate to posture back up to and including contact/biting. This is a dog that is out in public in highly crowded areas *atleast* 2-3 times a week. He does not want affection or attention from anyone he does not know. He is purely indifferent to the affections of strangers. Cold by most peoples description. People whine about "I don't think he likes me" as they pet him because he just looks past them trying to survey who's gonna walk up next. To me, this is the ideal dog. I see tons of GSDs these days that have no clue who I am but will willfully lick my face... dogs that when I subtly posture at them, will lick my face... dogs that when I *distinctly* posture at them, the want to lick my face... thats not what I think a GSD should be.
 
#20 ·
Sure, I'm biased, but I think my male is an ideal for the breed as far as temperament & nerve goes. I think there are a number of folks on here familiar with the lines that would support that. My male will *not* allow you in the door without me home and yeah you're gonna get a full-on show of aggression at the door and I'm fine with that, and he does *not* like people who he hasn't seen me be cool with first. Yet, a random kid can stumble up and pull on his ears and he will not react. He'll wish the kid wasn't poking his eyes and pulling his ears but he will tolerate it. And yet still, if you're an adult and showing aggression at us, he won't hesitate to posture back up to and including contact/biting. This is a dog that is out in public in highly crowded areas *atleast* 2-3 times a week. He does not want affection or attention from anyone he does not know. He is purely indifferent to the affections of strangers. Cold by most peoples description. People whine about "I don't think he likes me" as they pet him because he just looks past them trying to survey who's gonna walk up next. To me, this is the ideal dog. I see tons of GSDs these days that have no clue who I am but will willfully lick my face... dogs that when I subtly posture at them, will lick my face... dogs that when I *distinctly* posture at them, the want to lick my face... thats not what I think a GSD should be.
Just curious. How does your dog distinguish between a "kid" who evidently he will allow stuff from and an "adult" who he will bite?

What if a "kid" showed aggression by whacking you?
 
#17 ·
Hunterisgreat......your description of your dog should be what is written in dictionary as explaining the breed. Elaine, your post is is also right on point. Folks, all German Shepherds will not be like this for many reasons....but these are the traits(as described by HIG) that makes the dog a good herder, service dog, and working dog. Our problem in the breed is that many breeders put these traits way down on priority list.
 
#19 ·
This is another example of why buying or trainging based on internet words never makes much sense. To one person, "natural suspicion" is barking at strangers, to another it inolves no barking or reaction at all and everything in between.

I'm on the no display necessary unless a threat is there side, but always watchful.
 
#23 ·
Figured you changed it to "Nevermind" for a reason lol.
If you see the video I posted in the IPO section from a few weeks ago, there is a visiting toddler watching. When you hear the woman say something about jager wanting to play, was because he brought her the bite wedge.
 
#26 ·
A growl can mean many things. From a confident dog with solid nerves, the growl will be a beautiful deep throaty sound, and it means that the dog is keeping his eye on you, so don't pull anything stupid. If the dog is lacking confidence or has weak nerves, the sound has more of a nasal sound and it means that the dog is nervous so look out or you might get bitten. This is what I've observed.
 
#27 ·
Hunter it is difficult to adequately describe the type of dog you have. I have seen many dogs like yours in the past....it is not possible for you to answer every hypothetical that is raised, nor should you try. I think reasonable people can understand the type of dog you have. Congrats!
 
#29 ·
Yeah I agree its very difficult to describe him. Fortunately when I try to explain how he is to people either they don't believe me and never interact, or they do trust I have an idea what I'm talking about and interact with him and come to adore him. I have two good friends who are/were horrified of dogs, particularly GSDs because of bad experiences, and both love him now. I've had helpers scared to slip the sleeve or turn their back on him despite me saying he's fine, and yet I've had almost every club member hold a wedge or sleeve for me to do procedure stuff, guarding, etc (like in the video I posted yesterday)
 
#34 ·
I have a GSD that is serious, aloof, and naturally more suspicious than outgoing (though does not possess social aggression to the level that some would insist is appropriate or desire) and have had one I sold very recently that so far as a young dog was none of the above. Guess which one walks in parades with elementary school kids, visits the school for obedience demos, comes to work with me and does "office therapy dog" visits, and is now coming to work with me to walk with a colleague that has always been terrified of GSDs? The naturally more serious, suspicious dog. The best thing about him, I think, is that he's very easy to read. He's easy for me to read and easy for a stranger walking up to read. He's never once lunged or snapped at anyone outside of his protection training/trial. He lives free in the house and often people from my extended family who are more like "strangers" to him will come over and enter my house when I'm not there. He takes treats from the hand of the mail carrier. He walks with me on public sidewalks crowded with pedestrians and stops to get his dog sundae at the ice cream shop where there are always groups of little kids and usually other dogs hanging around.
 
#36 ·
My nervy female does a deep growl and would probably bite if provoked. Her noise doesn't decipher her nervebase and you may be surprised because she is not "nasaly" in her vocals.
I would think any dog that growls is warning and best to heed it or expect to get bitten.
My male seldom if ever growls. I am confident that he is the one I'd want by my side in any situation we are placed in. My female would be considered a liability.
 
#37 ·
I have heard my 4.5yo male GSD seriously growl ONCE in his life. When we were pursuadinghim that he was not the boss when he could decide to be aggressive with another male GSD. Had to flip him on his back and hold him there till he looked away from the pro trainer. He was very fortunately muzzled securely (trainer insisted on the muzzle after working with him a little and seeing him near this other dog before).

NEVER had i ever heard a growl like he gave the trainer as he took him down! VERY LOW and gutteral and yet very loud "Wild animal" like is the best description. Hair on the back of MY neck went straight up and wiggled around! Snapping as well!

But, to show the temperament he has - once he learned that, he was fine afterward with the trainer and also with the other dog.

And to show he doesn't hold a grudge he is MOST friendly with the trainer (unmuzzled!) every time he sees him - a "best friend!".
 
#40 ·
if nyou have natural suspicion, fear and insecurity mixed in, thats a big time bomb. balance is so important, and solid nerves. again, i think the breed standard should be watchful, but solid enough to know the difference between threat and non threat. i know that breeders breed for different things. i think the biggest problem is that some of these high suspicion working dogs are sold as family pets, or to people who are not working these dogs, and or do not have the tools or time to handle this type of dog. not that working dogs can't make great pets. although i am not excusing poor breeding and producing fear and insercurity issues. which also happens Way to much!
 
#41 ·
I was with you in the beginning of this post, then you lost me. Suspicion is supposed to be part of the breed, is it not? So then, naturally, a good deal of them are going to be in homes as family pets. I don't see an issue with this...unless, as you noted, they have issues with nerves or not having a clear head. However, that part is NOT breed standard. So as long as they all-around meet the standard, I don't see any issues with the natural suspicion. In fact, I expect it. It's one of the things that sets this breed apart. With my first GSD, my mother became quite unnerved because she already feared them, and when my youngest (who was a toddler at the time) climbed into her lap, my dog sat next to her chair. He didn't bark, growl, or show ANY sign of aggression or being uncomfortable. He simply didn't know her, and she had "his" child. She even said "what if he starts to cry and then your dog attacks me?" I said "Don't you think he's smart enough to tell the difference between a fussing toddler and someone harming him?" :rolleyes: My last male lacked that natural suspicion. While he was protective of us and our home (went into 'watch' mode at night, etc) he would walk up to strangers I was talking to and ask to be petted. I'd rather he ignored them, but he was an attention seeker and just couldn't help himself. I think the bigger problem is unbalanced dogs being sold into "family pet homes"... not dogs with natural suspicion.
 
#46 ·
I do not think aloof and suspicious are the same. There should be some level of suspicion in the GSD and definitely aloofness. A dog can be aloof and *not* suspicious. I can agree with "watchful" if we like that word better, but again to me that is not the same as aloof.
 
#47 ·
I also agree that aloof and suspicion are not the same! Suspiscion is seeing a threat everywhere, kinda of like my oldest son when introduced to his little sisters new boyfriend :) Aloofness can be just leave me alone.

I like the word watchful or the word "vigilant" or "discerning", "discriminating" better. To me it is just "a watchful making sure everything is ok" ,

A GSD should have the discernment to not have the same response to the behavior a child as to an adult man, but be always confidently vigilant or watchful of their surroundings
 
#48 · (Edited)
My opinion is that 'natural suspicion' is a bad thing for most owners. I'm not in law enforcement, I don't care much about schutzhund (where the constantly scripted exercises make me question the need for suspicion anyway), and I have no reason to put my dog in charge of my own protection. I still strongly believe that the mere presence of a GSD is enough to scare most would be attackers away. Unless you're training your dog for actual personal protection, I just don't see the need for such unending suspicion of everyone.

Some of the comments in the thread just have me baffled. Why would I want a dog that I constantly have to wonder how far his suspicion will go? I don't like humans that are constantly acting suspicious of others, and I certainly don't want a dog like that. Balance, in my opinion, is the ability for a dog to walk off the schutzhund field at the Working Dog Championships (where they most certainly were pushed hard), and greet a stocky, bearded guy like myself for the first time and want to play. Dogs that can be very serious when needed, but able to turn it off and be a wonderful, happy, playful family companion otherwise is what I'm looking for. Stability of nerve does not necessitate suspicion to me, and I would have no desire for such a suspicious dog.
 
#50 ·
Balance, in my opinion, is the ability for a dog to walk off the schutzhund field at the Working Dog Championships (where they most certainly were pushed hard), and greet a stocky, bearded guy like myself for the first time and want to play. Dogs that can be very serious when needed, but able to turn it off and be a wonderful, happy, playful family companion otherwise is what I'm looking for. Stability of nerve does not necessitate suspicion to me, and I would have no desire for such a suspicious dog.
That dog that greeted you at the championships might have natural suspicion, too. He just doesn't suspect you of anything.

I think that, to a point, a degree of suspicion is necessary for survival; in people as well as dogs, too much naivete can be the difference between life and death.

However, in a balanced dog with strong nerves, the "suspicion" does not consume his entire being. He is watchful, but not worried. He is alert, but not aggressive (unless warranted). He is not paranoid, he is using judgment. I'd bet that a lot of dogs have natural suspicion and their owners don't even know it, because they've never been in a situation that should arouse suspicion.
 
#52 ·
Yeah, I often wonder exactly what breeders mean when they tout "natural suspicion" in their dogs... what is it they are actually seeing? Without saying something about nerves, I tend to be suspicious (see, it can be a good trait!) about any breeder who brags about "natural suspicion". Of course the GSD should have it, but it should not necessarily be evident in normal, everyday situations where there is no threat. Ideally you would rarely see a dog act suspicious, and only in a situation where it is well warranted--ie, a shifty looking character coming toward you in a dark alley.
 
#53 ·
suspicious, reminds me of like a border patrol dog, or a dog gotten purposly for protecting a property etc.not really a family pet. i don't even like suspicious in SchH or protection training, it can be in the mix of a stable balance, but not soley what the dog is made up of. training a dog in SchH with over the top suspicion to me would mean huge liability.
 
#56 ·
Over the top anything is bad. You can train a high drive dog with zero aloofness or suspicion to be excellent at schh, but not real protection. SchH is not protection training. DDR/former soviet states produced such amazing dogs because they were bred for border patrol. This is the ideal gsd in my mind. No one wants a dog that lunges at anyone who approaches, but I for one don't want one that will readily befriend strangers either, nor is that inline with the spec
 
#58 ·
Lunging and biting at everything goes beyond suspicion. Suspicion implies distrust without action on that distrust, IMO. Other issues are at work in a dog like that. My male is highly suspicious, but in 5 years has never lunged or bitten anyone
 
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