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When breeders advertise..'natural suspicion", is this a good thing or a bad thing?

19K views 168 replies 32 participants last post by  cliffson1 
#1 ·
When breeders advertise..'natural suspicion", is this a good thing or a bad thing?

There is a common thread here on the forum of "my dog is reactive, my dog barks at people standing alone, my dog hackles at an unusual object, my dog is suspicious of strange people, my dog barks when someone knocks at the door, etc."

So, in looking a some websites of what I consider reputable breeders, I see in the description of their breeding dogs.."natural suspicion". I beleive they are promoting this as a good thing.

Would it be wrong to think that this is exactly the reason the above problems are existing? But, what would a GSD be without natural suspicion?...would it be a golden retreiver? Are the problems occuring because the natural suspicion is not balanced with strong nerves? Or is it training problems or lack there-of? I feel there must be a delicate balance to allow the dog to express this element of its DNA without making it a basket case by trying to mold it into a golden retriever.

If GSD's are supposed to have "natural suspicion" then it seems like many of these "problems" are normal behavior and the handling of the dog needs modified to help it succeed. Things you might do with a lab or golden would not be appropriate for a gsd, thus the problems.

So, that is my theorizing for the day..back to the question : do you think natural suspicion is what you look for in a good example of a gsd?
 
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#107 ·
And I hope it's obvious that I was using the word "monster" loosely in reference to Irmus. I don't want to be on the record calling him that. What I meant, and hope that I related, is that I think he's a LOT of dog. Easily the most intense GSD I've ever met. IN MY CARE, I don't think I would have the skill to train him to not be a monster. I'm sure he's a very nice dog for someone who wants all that intensity!
 
#119 · (Edited)
Two weeks ago I traveled to Texas, with all three of my dogs. We've spent two to three days on the road. On the way to Texas we spent one night in a Best Western Motel, outside was a big green yard which wasn't fenced in. It was right in front of the pool area.

The second they got out of the car and I walked towards that field, I could feel how fired up the girls were. They were like Monsters, chasing each other like crazy. After nearly 10 hours in the car, with only potty and water breaks, they needed to stretch their legs.

However, once I called it quits, I leashed them, got my stuff and walked into the foyer, booking a room. We went to the room, dogs settled immediately and I went to sleep.

The same happened when we finally made it to my friends place. After they inspected everything, they immediately settled. But open the door to the backyard and let them outside and the first thing they do is chasing and playing until they realize "Hey, I have to potty, maybe I should go and release myself".

WL dogs are no different to handle than any other drivey dog out there. They are not difficult in the house at all. I know for a fact that I could give you any of my dogs and you wouldn't have any issues at all handling them.

My friend who "doesn't like dogs" and has never owned any dogs, handled Indra and Yukon while I was at the Austin Schutzhund Club with Nala.

Dogs like Gildo, Olko or Satan always settled in the house without any issues. I expect a dog to settle in the house, no matter how driven they are. Granted, there are trainers who advise you to keep your dogs crated at all times, so they explode on the training field and if you let those dogs out of the crate, I fully expect them to go nuts in the house because they have never learned to settle.

When my new trainer let me stay over at his house, he allowed all three of my dogs to be outside a crate, in his house. They stayed in the room I slept in and again, they settled right away. On the training field Nala is a very intense dog but in the house she is the most easy going and most affectionate little girl you could find. You'd never guess how much of a firecracker she is on the field.

However, mine are used to a lot of traveling. They go pretty much anywhere I go. No matter where we go, give them some time to inspect the house and then they settle right away.

On the way back to NY we made a re-route to Lana's place and visited her. They made themselves at home right away.

It's a matter of training, genetics and routine. If you don't make a big deal out of it, your dogs won't make a big deal out of it either.
 
#108 ·
I have a z Diehlomov dog. While she was a monster for the first 6 months, she is a super easy dog to live with now. We call her The House Mouse because she is so quiet inside. If she has "natural suspicion" I have yet to see it.
Just an easy, social, dog with tons of "drive" when working and very trainable.
 
#110 ·
No I haven't. I've seen him taken directly out of the van, walked to go to the bathroom, and then onto the field. I've also seen him compete. But no, I have not seen him in a family or non-training situation and agree I don't have the "whole" picture.

I still think, please correct me if I'm wrong, that a dog's drive on the field could still outweigh their ability to settle. Even if the dog can settle and be social and happy and all that-- it's almost as if you saying that the concept of "too much dog" (which let's be honest- is usually in reference to the dog at work) doesn't really exist. Surely you don't mean that, right?
 
#112 ·
Lol wildo, havoc IS a monster. He is exactly what you would not want in a working line dog. It is not due to natural suspicion though... I do think that a gsd should have natural suspicion and I think most do. It's all about thresholds, with a low threshold the dog thinks that most things require suspicion. With a higher threshold the dig thinks very little requires suspicion. Havoc is pretty low threshold. Even still that is not why I say he is a monster, yes he has natural suspicion (which is fine with me) but he also has a giant chip on his shoulder and is always kinda looking for a fight. He also has WAY over the top territorialism (which would be a discussion for another thread.) dogs like him do exist in the working line world, but from what I have seen he really is not te norm. My other gsd (also west working line) is pretty much the ideal dog, he can be suspicious but only when he needs to be, he settles well but has enough drive to do whatever I ask him to. He to me is the definition of aloof, he doesn't pay much attention to anything, people, dogs, places, loud noises etc....That being said if the situation ever arose that he had to seriously protect me or my property, I think he would do the best he could....but he would never fight like havoc would. I know that havoc would fight to the death to protect himself, his pack and his territory. Is that necessary? I honestly don't think so, but there are jobs out there where dogs like him are needed and incredibly useful.

Guess who was the better schutzhund dog? Havoc by leaps and bounds and this is the problem with breeding with just sch in mind, the sport DOES in a lot of ways favor the over the top dog IMO. Wildo I think you have actually met havoc's sire (you have a you tube video of him on your channel chuck Von dorneburger bach) I am curious as to what your opinion was of him? I love working line GSDs and will own another one, but I will NEVER AGAIN seek out a dog like havoc.
 
#113 ·
Wildo have a look at hard core working line dogs , who did not go into "official" work - Badger and Fedor , could have - Aza , in spite of his wild retrieval - we pulled from consideration because he did not have that determination , the persistence , would do the work and look forward to doing something else - was a goofy pup in his mind , slow to mature-- he is PERFECT as family member . This is sort of a learning experience for me when I introduce new genetics , which his sire was -- All Things "Dog": September 2012
 
#114 ·
No Wildo, I mean that you seem to have strong opinions and I wanted to see if it was an informed opinion or not. Countless people have given you examples of WL dogs that settle down nicely....I'm curious if you have some inside information that Irmus is one of the "too much" dogs, or is it something you are projecting to support your reluctance about WL. When I see people with strong opinions, I like to know the strong evidence to support that opinion so I can learn more;).....Thanks
 
#123 ·
It's true- countless people have given me examples of WL dogs that settle. I don't begin to deny that. And I'm not sure i ever claimed that WL dogs can't settle. I don't have the time right now to go back and read all my posts in this thread- but I'd like to think that my main point was that there does exist the concept of "too much dog." Whether the dog can settle or not, too much dog is still just that- too much dog. I completely agree with you Cliff that a good breeder, breeding for BALANCE will be 100% able to meet my needs. I'm in complete agreement.

No, I absolutely have no insider info on Irmus! LOL!! I only have my eyes and my inexperience. ;)

If he settles fine in the house- that's great. It doesn't change the fact that I don't think I would have the right stuff to handle him on the field. But Mike Diehl obviously has way more experience than me!! As Chris pointed out a couple posts ago- no question Mike has trained and nurtured that kind of intensity. That's wonderful, really! I don't have a problem with it- and I don't think I have the experience to say that I have a problem with it even if I did, lol! All that I know is that dog scares me because I don't have the skill, experience, or balls to handle something as intense as him. And don't forget, Irmus actually was the first working line German Shepherd that I've gotten to watch in person. Talk about a crazy introduction to working lines!

No, please don't think I have insider info. Nope- just a newbie with no experience. :cool:

@ Wildo....not trying to be contrary my friend, but sometimes I hear opinions that though it may have a grain of truth, is not really representative of the complete picture in my travels. Because many people who are very new to the breed or are reading to maybe get their first dog; will take as gospel things they read here from either learned posters, or frequent posters. Therefore, I sometimes try to flush out the solidness of some opinions so that either we all can learn or that people don't pick something up to guide them that is more myth than fact.
Perfectly fine with me. As I said a post or two ago- I'm here to learn. I am an opinionated person, no question. But my opinion is easily modified as I discover facts and am presented with factual information. My opinion most definitely has been shaped by many posters here. Some of it I may have taken as gospel when I shouldn't have.


--Carmen--
I know you've given me a number of dogs to look into. I promise I will eventually get to it. I'm really more focused on Pimg's medical issues right now and just can't go much further than casual chat like in this thread. Once all this medical stuff is figured out, I'll sit down and dig into what you've sent. Promise.
 
#115 ·
@ Wildo....not trying to be contrary my friend, but sometimes I hear opinions that though it may have a grain of truth, is not really representative of the complete picture in my travels. Because many people who are very new to the breed or are reading to maybe get their first dog; will take as gospel things they read here from either learned posters, or frequent posters. Therefore, I sometimes try to flush out the solidness of some opinions so that either we all can learn or that people don't pick something up to guide them that is more myth than fact.
 
#117 ·
I agree with Chris Wild, my "monster" can and does settle in the house, he is not "on" all the time. But I do still think that he is challenging to work because of how intense and high drive he is. I think of it this way, my one gsd is like a Toyota, reliable, easy to work, does what I ask of him and does it well. Havoc is like driving a Ferrari, incredible performance and speed but pretty easy to get out of control and crash. I think dogs can be great house dogs but still be "too much" for some people to handle in training. This (like anything) does have a lot to do with conditioning. I have to admit that a lot havoc's intensity was likely created by me. I also try to remind myself that he is young and he improving with age.
 
#120 ·
Sorry for a third post but I forgot to add something.

After we left Lana's place (dogs and I) we went through Louisianna and spent the night at a days in, in Lafayette. (scary place by the way)
It was around midnight when we checked in and we were ten minutes in the room when somebody pushed down the handle and tried to enter the room and I was very glad that Indra was watching. She was alert and went into a frenzy, so did the other two. From that point on she spent the next hour in front of the window, looking outside "guarding" the door, when she finally decided everything was "clear" and came to bed.

To this day I don't know whether or not somebody tried to break into our room or if they just had the wrong door. The next morning, when we got ready to hit the road and I looked around where I actually stranded, it didn't look like the best neighborhood or a place where you'd like to live as a single woman.
 
#124 · (Edited)
@Wildo, the German SV has an Agility Section and they even have their own Nationals alongside the Schutzhund Nationals where the 75 best German Shepherds competed in Agility against each other.

This is Gerlie vom Kirschental's run. Enjoy :)



Here is a run from another dog
http://youtu.be/AnfJ3Qa2uIo

Amy vom Fasanenbrunnen
http://youtu.be/Ocb19bowp5I
 
#125 · (Edited)
Wow- those sure are some interesting courses, and interesting handling too! Very different from most anything I've seen. Thanks!

[EDIT]- the black dog in the second video was much nicer, in my opinion, than Gerlie vom Kirschental. Gerlie had such a bazaar handler with such strange lines. The black dog seemed more driven, was faster, and seemed more agile. The courses are very odd- very compressed with not much space between jumps. I doubt you'll see anything even close to that in the states. In fact, best I know is that USDAA "pushes the limits" with courses having a 17' space between jumps. The courses in these videos you posted have much shorter jump spacing- some looked as short as perhaps 12'. Still, I'd LOVE to see something like this a SchH shows here! :)
 
#126 ·
It's the nationals and not supposed to be easy. The black dogs handler admitted that the dog was doing great and that she messed up the handling. It was the first time she qualified for it.

I agree, the handler of Gerlie looks awkward and reminds me of a certain Trainer and Judge out here in my area. :D
The second run I liked much better but I am not agility buff so you are definitely more versed in that field.

Wow- those sure are some interesting courses, and interesting handling too! Very Idifferent from most anything I've seen. Thanks!

[EDIT]- the black dog in the second video was much nicer, in my opinion, than Gerlie vom Kirschental. Gerlie had such a bazaar handler with such strange lines. The black dog seemed more driven, was faster, and seemed more agile. The courses are very odd- very compressed with not much space between jumps. I doubt you'll see anything even close to that in the states. In fact, best I know is that USDAA "pushes the limits" with courses having a 17' space between jumps. The courses in these videos you posted have much shorter jump spacing- some looked as short as perhaps 12'. Still, I'd LOVE to see something like this a SchH shows here! :)
 
#127 ·
I didn't mean it should be easy. I meant that, at least for USDAA (which has the shortest obstacle spacing that I know of [around 17']) many would say that much less distance is unsafe. That's why I find it interesting to see such compact jump spacing.
 
#128 ·
It looked crazy tight to me too. Especially on a course FOR GSDs who definitely have a greater stride length than a lot of other popular agility breeds.
 
#132 ·
Honestly, he doesn't need a hardcore working dog. All he needs is a working-line dog with moderate drives for what he wants to do. You can find that kind of dog in pretty much every litter.

Isn't one of the Wildhaus dogs doing Agility? I think her name is Bretta?

Correct me if I'm wrong, Wildo. You want a driven dog that has enough drive and speed to get you further in Agility but you don't need over the top hard-core drive or pedigrees like many here suggest.
 
#134 ·
Honestly, he doesn't need a hardcore working dog. All he needs is a working-line dog with moderate drives for what he wants to do. You can find that kind of dog in pretty much every litter.
Well, I am fairly confident that I am no where near close to getting another dog, but I am ready to start doing research for one. I'm not sure I subscribe to the statement that a WL of "moderate drive"would suit my needs. I think Pimg has moderate drive. I'm looking for my next dog to go beyond the next level, not just get me to the next level. It's kind of like saying that you want to go from local SchH competition only to world level (or at least national level) competition. It takes a special kind of dog to get you there, and moderate drive is probably not it.

Isn't one of the Wildhaus dogs doing Agility? I think her name is Bretta?
Yep- there are many Wildhaus dogs doing agility. MRL has Bretta Lee and Glory B who are nice dogs. There's a number of others as well.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Wildo. You want a driven dog that has enough drive and speed to get you further in Agility but you don't need over the top hard-core drive or pedigrees like many here suggest.
I'm not sure. I have to learn more about drives in general to be able to answer that. I need to do research on how "drive" relates to agility anyway.
 
#141 ·
good points Freestep -- I have stated , Cliff has stated , that a well bred balanced GSD can be suitable for just about any calling - Badger for example - hard as nails in bite work , police evaluated, awesome tracking dog , outstanding pet , handled in agility by a child . I can provide so many other examples --
Working line and breeding for working , we are beginning to see distinctions in this , and for sport breeding . When a dog is described have that description match the STANDARD . When you get adjectives in the ozone , that is when you have to question the balance of the dog.
 
#146 ·
Wildo you are missing the point "But I want more than a solid working dog- I want that "edge" that "something" that pushes the boundaries of what GSDs typically accomplish in agility" all these SOLID stable adaptable dogs that I have been talking about can and are high levels - regionals and nationals schutzhund , are working police dogs in some active areas , bomb dogs , working farm dogs , and look to the Swedish dogs and some of the KNPV -- super power yet sociable . Personally Jean Dominique-DeBords german shepherd Espoir du val des Hurles Vent still hard to beat, a top French ring GSD , could hit the top of the 8 foot palisade more easily than many of the competing Mals -- fly over the pit -- .
The thing about balance is that when one thing is out of position you no longer have balance .
 
#147 ·
Carmspack. I think I know exactly what he means. There are solid working dogs and there are solid tworking dogs with that special something. Not all dogs have it. It's that something everyone wants, that type of dog that is out on the field and all of a sudden everybody stops talking and just watches because it's that impressive.

Is that a solid working dog? Yes, it is, but it's not just a solid working dog. It's what is generally called a "Kracher" (cracker) in Germany. That's what he wants. He wants one of 'those' dogs. Not something that is solid but mediocre and you and me know well enough that the majority of dogs are "mediocre" and that sometimes, once you had that special match, you'll never find another one like that ever again.
 
#149 ·
Yeah- maybe that's why everyone thinks I keep questioning them. I get it. I agree that a solid working dog is a solid working dog. And I agree that if anything is out of balance- then balance doesn't exist. I get it.

But like Mrs.K stated- I don't buy for a second that every one of the "solid working dogs" posted in this thread have that "something" that would trip my fancy. That's the thing about an opinion. What really "does it" for me might not be the same as what "does it" for Carmen. If I start from a foundation of "solid working dog" and then find that "something" to put on top- that's what I'm looking for.

A perfect example (since we've already strayed SO far off topic) is one that I've brought up before. Take Chuck vom Dorneburger Bach and Furious von Wolfstraum. Both are very nice dogs. Both are solid working dogs. I imagine most people looking for a "solid working dog" couldn't go wrong with either.

Now Chuck is significantly more titled than Furious. Chuck has proven he's got what it takes a number of times. In fact, his own owner even states, "He has a power in protection that I have not seen from many dogs and it is something very special." (emphasis mine) But when I watched them both, Furious is the one that had that "something" for me. What is it? Happiness. Joy. Energy. A spark for life. I spotted it a mile away and I loved it. I believe this comes from her grandmother- Babsi vom Hexenforst. I don't know where Babsi gets it- maybe she supplies it herself.

The point is that both those dogs are excellent, balanced, solid working dogs, both can be described as having that something-- but only one of the two "does it" for me. I'm not sure why wanting that extra "something" makes you think I'm not getting it. We all want that extra something in our dogs. I'm pretty sure.
 
#153 ·
The point is that both those dogs are excellent, balanced, solid working dogs, both can be described as having that something-- but only one of the two "does it" for me. I'm not sure why wanting that extra "something" makes you think I'm not getting it. We all want that extra something in our dogs. I'm pretty sure.
I think you're talking about something other than ability, drive and balance. I think there has to be some chemistry--some dogs immediately strike you as pleasing, others don't. Attitude? Spark? It's a gut thing and varies from person to person, so it's hard to put a name to. As long as you recognize what you want when you see it, that's all that matters.

I haven't seen either of the dogs you mentioned, so can't comment on what "it" might be.
 
#151 ·
may be a problem in the breed is that people think solid is mediocre -- and crazy is high drive -- " Not something that is solid but mediocre and you and me know well enough that the majority of dogs are "mediocre" and that sometimes, once you had that special match, you'll never find another one like that ever again. "

I wouldn't say the majority of dogs are mediocre - I see many who sure could have had better , more interesting, more respect-the-dog's-intelligence - training , more socratic , less didactic . If anything I see far too many nervy reactive dogs .
 
#156 ·
Line up 30 of the best working males and I guarantee you, there is one dog in there that stands out. Not only looks wise but personality, traits, everything, the whole package makes him stand out, and even though the others are of the same quality that one dog that stands out, is even better.

Please tell me you know what I'm talking about
 
#154 ·
Just thought I would add... Wildo my dog is out of Chuck and a half sister to furious. If you want to know more about him let me know:) My main focus with him is agility.
 
#155 ·
Man, KristiM- I saw you say that earlier, and completely spaced it. I'll send you a PM for sure...
 
#160 ·
I agree that it comes down to a matter of opinion as to what is "extreme," what "has what it takes" and what is a "dud." I do think that in order to do extremely well in dog sports, you have to have a dog that is a little extreme:) The dog sport world is so competitive these days that in order to have that edge against the competition you need a dog that out does the rest. (Not to mention the trainer.)
 
#161 ·
I think some of this is foolish.....any decent working dog is going to be as much as the trainer makes it....I can see Dean or Mike wanting special because they would make the special be seen....but give that same dog to me and he will be a good dog, because the specialness is in the hands of the handler more times than not.
 
#162 ·
No Cliffson, there are dogs that stand out because they've got something that other dogs. It's the same with humans, or horses.

BUT just because that dog has that special something doesn't mean you'll ever make it to the national because you as the handler might not be good enough. However, everyone can see that special something.

An excellent handler can take any dog and make something but if a sporting handler had the choice between a dog that "has it" or doesn't have it. Which one, do you think they'd go with?
 
#164 ·
I think of this daily....my dog could have done so much better with a handler that knew what s/he was doing. Thankfully he doesn't hold a grudge!
 
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