When breeders advertise..'natural suspicion", is this a good thing or a bad thing?
There is a common thread here on the forum of "my dog is reactive, my dog barks at people standing alone, my dog hackles at an unusual object, my dog is suspicious of strange people, my dog barks when someone knocks at the door, etc."
So, in looking a some websites of what I consider reputable breeders, I see in the description of their breeding dogs.."natural suspicion". I beleive they are promoting this as a good thing.
Would it be wrong to think that this is exactly the reason the above problems are existing? But, what would a GSD be without natural suspicion?...would it be a golden retreiver? Are the problems occuring because the natural suspicion is not balanced with strong nerves? Or is it training problems or lack there-of? I feel there must be a delicate balance to allow the dog to express this element of its DNA without making it a basket case by trying to mold it into a golden retriever.
If GSD's are supposed to have "natural suspicion" then it seems like many of these "problems" are normal behavior and the handling of the dog needs modified to help it succeed. Things you might do with a lab or golden would not be appropriate for a gsd, thus the problems.
So, that is my theorizing for the day..back to the question : do you think natural suspicion is what you look for in a good example of a gsd?
No expert here, but I also think "aloof" is different than "suspicious". What I see with Masi, and I could be wrong is, she is very aloof with the majority of people outside her "circle", could care less about people, content to just "be". The suspicion comes in (and again I could be wrong), is tho she could care less about you (general you), she knows exactly what you (general you) are doing. She's a 'watcher'.
For example, walking, meeting up with someone , stop to talk, she's content to sit/be quiet, but she is 'watching' you and it's a 'serious' watch. While she may not be 'staring' at you, she knows every move your making. She has never been in a situation where she's taken it any further, so whether or not , she could discern a "threat" I honestly don't know.
She doesn't lunge/nor bark, and as she's matured I see a pretty confident dog who goes with the flow and is pretty predictable for me, anyhow .
Diane, Masi sounds like what it should be...............and i do think Watchful is a good discription. i still don't like suspucious discribed as a gsd trait even though it might have its place as long as its balanced in a stable dog.
'Watchful' is a synonym of suspicious, so in that respect I think we all do want to see 'natural suspicion' in our GSDs. 'Wary' is another one. Both of these are traits that I take for granted in a GSD. Maybe the breeders are using this in their marketing to weed out the buyers that they feel would be better off with a different breed?
The problem is, a lot of people, and especially BYBs, use "code" to describe their dogs.
"Suspicious" = Afraid of strangers
"Loyal" = Has separation anxiety
"Protective" = Fear aggressive
...and so on. It makes it difficult for most people to sort out what is really going on with the dog. This is why I like breeder websites that show a dog's actual accomplishments; performance titles or real-life jobs such as law enforcement, SAR, service, etc., or the accomplishments of the dog's offspring.
It's not just BYB, it's people, too. The GSD pup my pug was playing with... her owner was telling me how 'protective' she was because if anyone walked up to him, all of her hair went on end. I told him that was fear, and he needed to get with a trainer on that before she filled out or it could be a HUGE liability. The biggest issue is that NO ONE is understanding the meaning. My boy should have natural suspicion, but he's a happy go lucky pup right now. It's in his lines. IMO, the Czech dogs are the last 'unadulterated' GSD lines...but that's only my opinion. Suspicion doesn't mean that the dog is paranoid or that it will just up and attack someone. To me, it goes with the 'aloofness'. I agree with Cliff... what do people suppose the dog is thinking or the reason why they're aloof?
Freestep, your "code" explanation made me laugh. I guess in the *really* wrong hands, the phrase could be an oxymoron, lol!
Jag, I see that all the time too. It's so aggravating, isn't it?
Wildo... if an adult walks up to you, is your dog watching you the whole time or does your dog look at the person walking up? Maybe 'checking' to see if there would be a reason to be alarmed of if the person seems totally harmless? Not saying this means anything at all... I'm just curious.
I think it is interesting to look at other breed standards to see what they say about things like this - just for kicks.
Temperament
Keen intelligence, an independent spirit and innate dignity give the Chow an aura of aloofness. It is a Chow’s nature to be reserved and discerning with strangers. Displays of aggression or timidity are unacceptable. Because of its deep set eyes the Chow has limited peripheral vision and is best approachedfrom the front.
Temperament
The Schipperke is curious, interested in everything around him, and is an excellent and faithful little watchdog. He is reserved with strangers and ready to protect his family and property if necessary. He displays a confident and independent personality, reflecting the breed's original purpose as watchdog and hunter of vermin.
I have heard the word suspicious used with those breeds as well.
I have a BC-Chow mix who is completely indifferent to other people. It is very interesting to watch her, because she is able to be social, just doesn't want to. And she doesn't seem suspicious until something suspicious occurs!
This is an interesting conversation - thanks for it!
Hmm- that's a good question. No, I don't believe she's fixated on me and would be looking at the oncoming person. But she doesn't seem to linger on them. She's aware of their encroachment, but not bothered or suspicious of it I don't think. She'll look at them and tend to be indifferent to it. She'll look around at other things going on, like passing cars if we were by a road, or whatever else seemed interesting. I guess I just mean that: yes- she's aware of their presence, but no- she doesn't seem fixated or bothered by it.
I will say that I've been curious to try the ATTS test to see how she'd react to an actual threat approaching. I've never been in a situation where someone has approached me in a threatening way. Pimg's never been exposed to that, and I don't actually know what she would do. That's the reason why it's hard for me to answer. She's never been in a suspicious situation... I tried to get her temp tested at a local SchH club, but once they saw her age, size, and sex (she's a pretty big female)- they were disinterested in doing much of anything with her.
I usually carry a decent length beard, have a fairly deep voice, and am far from a lightweight person. Oh, and I'm a male, if you didn't know. Not many people are really interested in approaching me in a suspicious or malicious way. I suspect the sight of a GSD even increases their lack of desire to do so. So like I said, she's never really been in such a situation. I suspect that my case is much different than some of you ladies where suspicious males may be more likely to approach you.
It is very to easy to see who works dogs and who doesnt....this is not meant derogatorily, but in comments made from lack of experience. Dogs have the ability to discern and the GS with proprer temperament is one of the best. NOTHING is absolute....so a dog with natural suspicion does not have to walk around in non threatening environments on alert. Dogs learn to recognize certain environs just like they learn to read people. Most pet owners really dont understand the degree that dogs READ people in terms of body language, voices, posture, and emotions. Correct tempered GS are able to make sound adjustments to their character presentation based on these things. A dog walking at night has a different demeanor than one walking in the day(at least it should). At night is a good example of when your dog should increase their natural suspicion. Walk the same dog the same route in middle of the day and dog walks with tail lower and less NS. Dogs that have marvelous temperament in family and in general, when they go on duty in policework, their natural suspicion becomes heightened....because of potential threat....same dog goes home to house with kids and wife or husband and is regular pet. The breed SHOULD have natural suspicion, but the discernment piece allows them to use it wisely. A dog that walks the streets at night that doesnt increase its suspicion level is poor excuse for the breed....and people are breeding these dogs and they are not all BYB. A person who works their dog is very much aware of the dog's ability to use the natural suspicion discriminately....this is what the breed should be. Of course every dog doesnt have it and many people cant nuture it, but these dogs shouldnt be bred and these people shouldnt be owners.....dont change the dog....lol!
It is very to easy to see who works dogs and who doesnt....this is not meant derogatorily, but in comments made from lack of experience.
...
Of course every dog doesnt have it and many people cant nuture it, but these dogs shouldnt be bred and these people shouldnt be owners.....dont change the dog....lol!
Gotta say Cliff, I highly respect your opinion! But I can't not read this in a derogatory way. Hopefully there's still room in the world for those of us who have no interest in police dogs, and hopefully we can still continue to be GSD owners. Have I misunderstood your intent with that last underlined sentence?
So for example....a GSD is taken outside to use the washroom on a leash...small kids walk by, the dog takes notice, but ignores them and continues with their business, but 2 minutes later a group of boys(not of the best character) walk by, the dog doesn't bark, but goes into full alert and focus's on those boys until they are out of the dogs vision....is this good behavior/bad behavior?? Suspicion or Aloofness?
you always have to understand the breed from a historic perspective. Sheep were on the move and shepherds moved with them , did not return to a home base , barn . They slept under the stars and at the time there were roaming wild animals and fellow shepherds , some who were apt to roll you at night and steal your purse , your provisions . So the suspicion is hard wired into the breed. It is a watchfullness , which has nothing to do with being aloof or neutral . Suspicion is a valuable attribute . It does not mean the dog goes into hysterics or cringes out of fear -- ALWAYS sound character is a must . The dog must discern what is a threat and then deal with it appropriately.
Thank you Codmaster....people take pieces of what I write and ignore the other parts and try to make a point. I talked about the breeds ability to discern based on threat and reading people and environments. When I talk about the great ability of this breed and nothing being absolute I mean the dog has the ability to use the reading of the situation, the threat of the people, the posture of the people, the voice of the people, the occurrences of past experiences, to make a discernment. They are not programmed robots, course it is obvious this is not understood by some of the scenarios that are presented. Secondly, I spoke about What the breed should be which includes good nerve and courage with the NS to give the dog the ability to make wide ranging discernments....of course if your dog is lacking any of these traits they can't be as reliable...but I wasn't talking about those dogs in the first place.
@ Wildo....a good police dog is nothing more than a GS that possesses all the attributes listed in the STANDARD. Police dogs by and large make excellent pets, in times past many police and military dogs were donated from families. There are many people who cannot handle a good German Shepherd, why?....because they don't have the time to put the structure in the dog, or they don't put the discipline in the dog, or they don't put the time into the dog, and they create something they can't handle. Nothing wrong with the dog....bad ownership is problem whether it is lack of knowledge or lack of opportunity. The PC people then want the breed watered down so everybody can own one even if they do the above things I mentioned....this is destroying a great breed built for service to man. A seeing eye dog is not what it is because of its golden temperament....a seeing eye dog is what it is because of training and solid nerve base. Are seeing eye dogs family dogs? People try to make police dogs these extreme type of GS, they shouldn't be. A special forces person that hasn't been trained is just a regular person in society that is maybe more assertive than average and fits into society everyday. Some people shouldn't have this breed that do....IMO.....but because the PC people have basically altered the temperament and perception of the breed in many cases, their are many who think the new creation is correct and have not a clue of the abilities or capabilities of the breed. These people think that police dogs can't be pets and this is so sad!
So in "my kinda terms"...a GSD is suppose to have a solid nerve base and then training for ANYTHING is based on that. I have to agree and I do think that police dogs can be pets...I would not hesitate to get a retired police dog. I actually think they would make great pets
Thanks Cliff for elaborating on your comments! I guess I'm still nervous about taking that leap into leap into the working lines, but maybe I shouldn't be. I'm either going to have what it takes or I'm not...
Wildo! You have what it takes. You can read a dog! You love to train and learn.
Max is developing into a really neat dog! If I can do it..you can do it too!!
And I have to add..thanks to all the thoughtfull responses to this thread. The breeders that I was referring to that advertise "suspicion" are those that participate at high levels in schh and win. They are breeding dogs with good nerve..making good, overall dogs! The discussion was very informative and very thought provoking!
I think I get where Willy is coming from, now having met him at a big dog event. I think it's fair to say we look for a lot of same things in a dog and he is right to have concerns about some dogs and compatibility issues. But Willy I think even if you don't know how to find exactly what you are looking for you know how to find a breeder or people that know, if that makes sense? There *are* a lot of really great working line dogs that would not be suitable for me but are definitely "correct" as far as GSD temperament and nerve. Some of what we are asking for and expecting goes a bit above and beyond. For me the biggest part of it has been learning to read my dog and learning how to be confident and in control no matter what. It might sound like hard work and anxious work but after a while it just becomes second nature and it's almost a gut reaction. If I am walking down the sidewalk and someone asks if they can pet my dog the answer might be yes or might be no and there's not like this mental checklist I'm going through but at this point I can just feel out the situation and make an instant judgment and be totally confident with myself and my dog.
people training for urban search and rescue are having a hard time getting candidates from this breed....(as are seeing-eye programs) because many are washing out in training or evaluations. Now there is no bitework in either of these endeavors....so I am asking why is the breed not making the cut. Many people who breed to stay away from aggression are not supplying these venues with dogs either.....so what is the problem????
I need some help on this, if you have a breeding program and the dogs are not candidates for Law Enforcement, they are not candidates for Search and Rescue, they are not candidates for seeing-eye programs.....are these people breeding dogs fitting the standard???
I need some help on this, if you have a breeding program and the dogs are not candidates for Law Enforcement, they are not candidates for Search and Rescue, they are not candidates for seeing-eye programs.....are these people breeding dogs fitting the standard???
that is one of the reasons I am putting the development of Nickolas out there - to show a totally sane , sociable dog , with coping skills and all the proper aloof to strangers -- yet social -- and levels of suspicion , which was already shown on one of the blogs where he is watching someone move around in the far distance , yet totally relaxed and composed - till the man came to a point and the dog volunteered to move out and forward , give a woof, give him a body bump (oh its you) and then go back to Mike. Let's see him develop and do the bite work and then lets see where he ends up as an adult . This is a dog I picked for service.
I am sick and tired of people using the words German Shepherd , riding on the good things , when they are not even close to making any effort whatsoever to stay somewhat within the standards - going totally rogue .
Well you can knock yourself out and produce what ever kind of dog you want , but if you use German Shepherd then that has to stand for something. Kennel clubs should not allow those dogs to be recognized. German Shepherd is more than dna from another gsd .
I'm sick and tired of people acting like a properly bred working Labrador is all giggles and kisses. They're not. A serious working dog is exactly that: serious. My Labrador could've easily been the dog liesje was describing instead of Nikon.
Also Wildo, I feel much as you do. My first shepherd years ago was much more serious and mature and as described. I thought I'd done research but hoo boy obviously I did not. I didn't realize how much had changed, and sometimes I feel very bad and guilty for occasionally, to be blunt, wishing I'd waited instead of getting Rocket, good as he is. I can only hope as he continues to mature he becomes more aloof, but in the end, he will be what he will be.
I think a dog with proper nerve, drive, suspicion,'letc..... Should be a good pet. I don't spend hours exercising or training my dogs every day.
Most well bred GSDs just need basic training, an owner with common sense, and a way to exercise. Sure young dogs and puppies are more work.... And yes there are some pretty intense dogs at the end of the spectrum.
But a committed, sensible owner with a stable home should not have that awfully much trouble.
I think a dog with proper nerve, drive, suspicion,'letc..... Should be a good pet. I don't spend hours exercising or training my dogs every day.
Most well bred GSDs just need basic training, an owner with common sense, and a way to exercise. Sure young dogs and puppies are more work.... And yes there are some pretty intense dogs at the end of the spectrum. But a committed, sensible owner with a stable home should not have that awfully much trouble.
I find myself rolling my eyes sometimes when I hear people talking about owning a WL.....like you have to be some big shot professional to handle them. We have a very good dog and he is from some pretty strong lines....Cliff has seen his pedigree....and he is a complete joy to own. I would not have done nearly the amount of stuff you have done Willy in the dog world.....but I have "coped" he is just a dog....not some "unknown" beast to tame.
I think it can be an ego thing sometimes...."I own a big tough GSD so don't mess with me" type thing. We are just an ordinary family with kids who live on a farm with a beautiful pet who just fits in with everyone.
Willy, I think as Lies pointed out, you would do fine with a WL providing you find the right breeder that can peg their puppies and match one up to fit your lifestyle and "wants" as well as "dont wants".
The last 3 gsd's I've had/ have all been czech/ddr lines and no they aren't golden retrievers, and yes I've heard alot say ddr's can be stubborn buttheads, but I just haven't seen that with the ones I've had.
While I don't think they would have/had done well in a home where one expects the dog to lounge around all day, they shouldn't "be" loungers. Settle when appropriate yes, but get up and go with the flow when asked of them.
That's what I've always had, and will continue to go for, a dog that can settle when the time comes, and one that will go all day if I ask it to.
I think you would be fine with ANY dog you got willy, so don't be afraid to take that plunge, there are so many great breeders out there I'm sure a few of them would be happy to match you up with what you desire
Willy, I think as Lies pointed out, you would do fine with a WL providing you find the right breeder that can peg their puppies and match one up to fit your lifestyle and "wants" as well as "dont wants".
That's the key. If WL dogs can go on to be guide dogs for the blind, service dogs for the disabled, etc., they can certainly go into a normal home as well. The key is pup selection. Yes, some WL dogs can be a handful (so can some WGSL, ASL, BYB, etc.) but if you choose the right temperament, energy level, and drive level for your needs, you should be just fine. Just find a breeder you trust, and go from there.
Thanks thanks thanks everyone!! I certainly didn't mean to derail this thread. We can go back to talking about suspicion! I know I'll have to take a read through Carmen's thread. Perhaps specifically the video she's mentioned...
Most definitely, just like with what a GSD "should be," everyone has a differing opinion of what "natural suspicion" is. It will be good to see Carmen's video as at least some tangible thing we could discuss.
Wildo your opinion of WL dogs may also be the problem.....like you have to build up your courage to get one....what do you think they are..... monsters?
Read carefully the post from Mary.....it is based in truth moreso than the opinions of many people of WL that have heard stuff from other people. There are thousands and thousands of regular families and people that own WL and many of them are their first dog. Just like Ive tried to relate that many police dogs are not super badazz dogs off duty....but it just doesnt seem to take.
I find myself rolling my eyes sometimes when I hear people talking about owning a WL.....like you have to be some big shot professional to handle them. We have a very good dog and he is from some pretty strong lines....Cliff has seen his pedigree....and he is a complete joy to own. I would not have done nearly the amount of stuff you have done Willy in the dog world.....but I have "coped" he is just a dog....not some "unknown" beast to tame.
I think it can be an ego thing sometimes...."I own a big tough GSD so don't mess with me" type thing. We are just an ordinary family with kids who live on a farm with a beautiful pet who just fits in with everyone.
there are lots of working line breeders who use hyperbolic descriptions for marketing -- Leerburg when they had pups comes to mind, recent pedigrees presented to me for examination - you would barely recognize them to be GSD for some of the descriptions -- which is not normal , if the description is correct , or desireable for gsd.
Look at the Beretta the 5 week old herding dog -- very brave, full of natural drive, good looking dogs -- you don't think you can't do your agility with any of them. Wildo look for the correct GSD and then do agility with them.
Genetics is what it comes down to. are these breeders researching and testing what they are breeding? a stabl;e working dog can be a good pet, an unstable dog lacking in balance of drives and mental componants is a time bomb pet or not.
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