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I think many of you may be right about Kira's aggression tendency.

26K views 173 replies 45 participants last post by  onyx'girl 
#1 ·
I've been keeping a close eye on my Kira. She's been with all of us for almost a year, and I've come here for every little thing, and have gotten great answers.


I think I may not be reading this correctly, and may warrant a discussion.
Her actions are escalating.

A few days ago, I shrugged off Kira going bonkers at a Chihuahua that showed up at my house unattended. That may have been more a red flag than I realized.
I may have a developing issue that needs attention.

Today, I observed a few new bouts of "what may appear as aggression". I'm not sure what's she's doing. She's charging forward, with a loud bark, and stopping at the "victim", and doing nothing at that point, but a sniff and walk away.

1) My daughter's 18 yr old male friend comes up from the basement. Kira didn't know he was the house. As soon as she saw him, she barked, tail up and curled, and barked as she moved towards him. He's a dog owner, so he stood still. She stopped barking, sniffed and walked away.

2) Kira was sitting inside my home, laying on an ottoman that overlooks the front of my house. All was quiet. My 13 yr old daughter had a male friend with her in front of my house. I was also outside with my daughter and her friend. My daughter asked for a ride to the mall.
As soon as the male friend approached my truck, and opened the door to enter, Kira started going bonkers at the window.

3) 9pm tonight. I take my 8 yr old and 13 yr for ice cream. Kira comes with us.Upon returning, I pull into my driveway, and see my 18 yr old daughter at the top of my steps with a male friend. Kira literally chased him in the house. Barking and approaching. Knowing that Kira is not known to be aggressive, and witnessing today's behavior, I commanded a stop, and down. She obeyed, and just dropped. The boy walked past her, and nothing happened.

What's going on?
 
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#45 ·
Anthony, I applaud your introspection and willingness to explore the possibility that maybe Kira's behavior needs some attention. After the "Chihuahua" post I was concerned that you took too much pride in her aggressive reaction.

In reading your posts I haven't seen information about what you have done (if anything) to try and train Kira that she should not react to people entering the house. In one of your posts you even say that you will set up a video camera so we can see what she does the next time someone comes over. Really? Will that friend know that they are going to be the guinea pig?

I suggest that you go back to basics with Kira on training her about how to react to people and dogs coming inside the house. Just like the great job you obviously did with her on her reaction to people and dogs outside, you need to put her on a leash with a choke chain, get a pocketful of treats, and drill her on how to behave. Since you evidently have a stable of young teens who like to visit and with whom she is somewhat familiar this shouldn't be a problem. Have them enter the house with treats, and you have Kira 10 feet from the door on her leash. Correct bad behavior and reward good behavior, until she gets it. Let these visitors give her treats.

Extend those lessons after a few weeks to LEASHED and steady-nerved dogs. Once she has that expand it to off leash dogs entering your home, then strangers (to her, but enlist the cooperation of people you know, co-workers, etc.) Keep her on a leash this entire time until she shows no sign of aggression.

IMHO your goal should be to get her to see someone coming into the house in a relaxed, friendly manner as a non-event, and to take her cue from how YOU react to that person. The problem now is that she is being allowed to make the decision about whether people and dogs who aren't a part of her immediate pack should be allowed inside based on pure instinct, and that is dangerous for you and your guests.
 
#47 ·
Anthony, I applaud your introspection and willingness to explore the possibility that maybe Kira's behavior needs some attention. After the "Chihuahua" post I was concerned that you took too much pride in her aggressive reaction.

Nah, not at all. It's not always easy to express one's self on the internet. I didn't know what to think about her reaction. I wouldn't have followed up with this thread, if I accepted her behavior.
Truth is... I didn't recognize it.

In reading your posts I haven't seen information about what you have done (if anything) to try and train Kira that she should not react to people entering the house. In one of your posts you even say that you will set up a video camera so we can see what she does the next time someone comes over. Really? Will that friend know that they are going to be the guinea pig?

I have a gate that separates the kitchen area and the front entrance. I can stage it with a willing participant, without safety concerns.
Isn't that how I would determine the course to cure?

I suggest that you go back to basics with Kira on training her about how to react to people and dogs coming inside the house. Just like the great job you obviously did with her on her reaction to people and dogs outside, you need to put her on a leash with a choke chain, get a pocketful of treats, and drill her on how to behave. Since you evidently have a stable of young teens who like to visit and with whom she is somewhat familiar this shouldn't be a problem. Have them enter the house with treats, and you have Kira 10 feet from the door on her leash. Correct bad behavior and reward good behavior, until she gets it. Let these visitors give her treats.

Extend those lessons after a few weeks to LEASHED and steady-nerved dogs. Once she has that expand it to off leash dogs entering your home, then strangers (to her, but enlist the cooperation of people you know, co-workers, etc.) Keep her on a leash this entire time until she shows no sign of aggression.

IMHO your goal should be to get her to see someone coming into the house in a relaxed, friendly manner as a non-event, and to take her cue from how YOU react to that person. The problem now is that she is being allowed to make the decision about whether people and dogs who aren't a part of her immediate pack should be allowed inside based on pure instinct, and that is dangerous for you and your guests.
I like this advice.
Thank you
 
#46 ·
Anthony, I'm not a master trainer by any means - so if anything I write is completely off the wall I hope that someone with more knowledge will correct me. But, having said that, I'm now raising my 4th GSD, and have spent my whole decades-long life living with dogs.

If Kira has a perfect "Down" and you can command that while she's rushing up to her perceived threat, then that says ALOT. This is excellent!This is what I always train - it comes in handy in so many situations. And I don't expect my dogs to not rush and bark, not when they're young. Not that it's a pleasure to put up with, but I see it as a sign of a healthy GSD. It's been my experience that the dogs that DON'T bark are the ones to inflict a bite, so I don't want to extinguish that very important form of communication (barking) from them.

Whenever DH or I enter our backyard through the front door, my puppy will rush the back gate barking. DH thinks he's a nutcase for barking at us. I think he's listening to the sound of feet crushing on the gravel, but can't see who it is, and just starts barking at the noise first. If I agreed with DH, I'd worry about his eyesight, his nerves, all sorts of things. But at 9 months, I just see it as him growing into himself.

I guess my question is, when Kira rushes and barks at guests (not the Chi, that was silly) how do you respond?
 
#136 ·
It's been my experience that the dogs that DON'T bark are the ones to inflict a bite, so I don't want to extinguish that very important form of communication (barking) from them.
Don't know if this is always the case but my son's dog would not bother barking much if someone just came into his house. He would just bite. And my newfie mix who is DA, does not bark if a dog comes close to sniff....he just lets off a rumbly sound and bites. There is something to be said about the quote "his bark is worse than his bite." Definitely prefer the bark....
 
#49 ·
so Anthony , lol , YOU wanted to harrass your wife and the dog was your agent , lol.

the dog is not clear in her thinking , as someone mentioned there are internal conflicts. Well this doesn't help her . You send the dog to harrass your wife , you enjoy it , but your wife gets annoyed and sends that signal to the dog . So if there is an issue with the dog and you are not home , will your wife have any problems or confidence with the dog in handling her , and will the dog respect her .


I have two kids that are now adults . A girl and her brother 7 years her juniour . We had so many sleep overs , so many kid-community dinners - always room for one more. The dog would bark at the arriving car the young teens , one woof to acknowledge a change , then the kids would give a knock , open door slightly and I would holler - come on in , they're upstairs . By that time all the boys , or girls , depending on whose gathering it was , would be at the top of the stairs , giddy with laughter inviting the new friend to join in.
Sundays - a house tradition -- Sunday think-tank sessions . Brunch - and friends dropping in to hang out - for the day . When we are fine and relaxed the dog (s) are fine and relaxed.

Want to see good temperament - go to the Lynx retires thread --
 
#51 ·
so Anthony , lol , YOU wanted to harrass your wife and the dog was your agent , lol.

OK, YES!! I confess! I wanted Kira to nibble on her ankles. You're breaking me under pressure.
Myself and the kids were hiding behind a wall, and we were atching my wife do her workout. She had no idea we were there. I whispered in Kira's ear "go bite mommys' ankle"... What made it funny, is that she actually did it.

If there was a video camera on the other side, you'd see me, my three girls, and Kira hiding.
I guess you had to be there. It was one of tose funny family moments.


the dog is not clear in her thinking , as someone mentioned there are internal conflicts. Well this doesn't help her . You send the dog to harrass your wife , you enjoy it , but your wife gets annoyed and sends that signal to the dog . So if there is an issue with the dog and you are not home , will your wife have any problems or confidence with the dog in handling her , and will the dog respect her .

My wife attends obedience school with her. This video was 5 months ago, and a joke. Since then, my wife has full control and respect from Kira.

I have two kids that are now adults . A girl and her brother 7 years her juniour . We had so many sleep overs , so many kid-community dinners - always room for one more. The dog would bark at the arriving car the young teens , one woof to acknowledge a change , then the kids would give a knock , open door slightly and I would holler - come on in , they're upstairs . By that time all the boys , or girls , depending on whose gathering it was , would be at the top of the stairs , giddy with laughter inviting the new friend to join in.
Sundays - a house tradition -- Sunday think-tank sessions . Brunch - and friends dropping in to hang out - for the day . When we are fine and relaxed the dog (s) are fine and relaxed.

I'm sure this didn't happen over night. Kira is young. I'm still raising her as a pup. I see a potential issue, I come here for answers.
Is that not why we have this forum?
Or should we all just sit around and brag about our accomplishments, and pound our chest?
My dog is better than your dog nonsense.

Want to see good temperament - go to the Lynx retires thread --
I'm sure Lynx has a wonderful dog. But it took training to do that.
 
#50 ·
IMHO your goal should be to get her to see someone coming into the house in a relaxed, friendly manner as a non-event, and to take her cue from how YOU react to that person.
This is what we worked on with our GSD. I didn't analyze to see if he was afraid, nervous, shy, etc.
I simply trained him to ignore (for instance) cars going by, which triggered barking, and he was taught to rely on us and our body language for when visitors came over.
Even if Kira rushes someone, she should be able to be called off, and/or drop on command.

Can you train her for "a polite sniff"? You've been successful in training her to do many other things.

I said it already but you may have missed it - I do not think Kira's aggressive. I'm not even for sure if she's not "stable". If she isn't, she's a lot more stable than many Shepherds out there.
I'd still not train her (or encourage her) to "attack", even in play :thumbup:
 
#53 ·
This is what we worked on with our GSD. I didn't analyze to see if he was afraid, nervous, shy, etc.
I simply trained him to ignore (for instance) cars going by, which triggered barking, and he was taught to rely on us and our body language for when visitors came over.
Even if Kira rushes someone, she should be able to be called off, and/or drop on command.

She will stop dead in her tracks, if need be.

Can you train her for "a polite sniff"? You've been successful in training her to do many other things.

Yes. I mentioned earlier, that I encouraged the guest to put his hand out and offer a sniff. Kira sniffed his hand, licked it and walked away.


I said it already but you may have missed it - I do not think Kira's aggressive. I'm not even for sure if she's not "stable". If she isn't, she's a lot more stable than many Shepherds out there.
I'd still not train her (or encourage her) to "attack", even in play :thumbup:
I don't think she's aggressive either. But if you didn't know better, she'd scare the bloomers off you.
I want to work on that. Aggressive, excitement, alarmist, weak nerve, whatever you want to call it. I see a form of behavior that's not acceptable.
 
#52 ·
NO IT DID NOT TAKE TRAINING - that is the whole point , the dog is or is not . He is one sound dog. My dogs are like that and it is not training .

so do you want help or not ? then don't throw out offensive stuff like this -- when I am trying to illustrate how it can be and should be .

"Or should we all just sit around and brag about our accomplishments, and pound our chest?
My dog is better than your dog nonsense."
 
#62 ·
NO IT DID NOT TAKE TRAINING - that is the whole point , the dog is or is not . He is one sound dog. My dogs are like that and it is not training .

So you're saying that your dogs don't bark at strangers, and it's because they are simply "like that"? And you had nothing to do with that?
All of your post show nothing but a vast knowledge of dogs. Whether it's behavior, nutritional, etc...
And yet, you were gifted with perfect dogs.
Sorry, maybe you don't realize how much your knowledge comes into play here.

so do you want help or not ? then don't throw out offensive stuff like this -- when I am trying to illustrate how it can be and should be .

"Or should we all just sit around and brag about our accomplishments, and pound our chest?
My dog is better than your dog nonsense."
I see nothing wrong with this.

Carmen, you ask if I want help or not... But if you go back and read your responses, you seem more fixated on my wife's practical joke from 5 months ago, than the subject I've raised here today.

I have respect for you and your contributions here, but lately, I've picked up quite a bit of apprehension in some of your replies to me.
If you simply don't like me, or feel that I'm not a good dog owner, then I'm sorry. I can't help you.

I come here to learn to be a better owner.
 
#54 ·
Sunflowers, I really like your post....I see it the same way. Her behavior seems no different to me than many many toy breed dogs I have seen over the years. When they first come into contact with someone new they rush forward barking, and then usually walk away if you stand there or go back to starting point. Maybe giving another bark, maybe not. If your dog was aggressive you have she has had plenty of opportunities to be truly aggressive. She is a GS,(which is aloof by standard), she has less than optimum nerves,(which makes her reactive), but overall a nice dog. I think the main problem is your expectations, she is not going to be the type of dog in certain situations that a dog with better nerve would be. Dogs like Kira have to be managed in certain situations, otherwise they are fine. They can't be compared to other GS, some things can't be fixed when distractions or new elements are introduced. Accept her for what she is and don't over analyze her behaviors, unless she does something irrational. Right now what you are describing makes plenty sense considering the circumstances.jmo
EXACTLY! :thumbup:
 
#55 ·
This isn't about whose dog is better. Not at all.
Some dogs are more stable, others aren't.
We can't control those things, even as purchasers, although stacking the odds with genetically sound parents helps.

Rescuers and adopters, even less so. Our current dog is extremely stable, nerves-wise. I'm very pleased. But his elbows are crap. He'll have a shortened life due to that.
But his nerves? 100% :)
Not sure I'd take good elbows over good nerves.
 
#56 · (Edited)
What bugs me a bit is that the sole attention is kept on Kira.

Kira does this, Kira does that, she has this issue she has that issue, it's Kira that is the problem.

We all know that 95% of the time the issue lies on the other end of the leash.

Her behavior is not really surprising to me. Right now the problem is that he's over-analyzing everything she does and expects a problem to arise because he's made BONKERS about her "fear aggression".

You can't do this, you shouldn't do that, you need to be on top of that.

We put FEAR into this man and if he fears her acting out every time, he tenses up, his body language changes and he's no longer free. He may not even realize he's doing it. It's mainly happening subconscious.

However, what I'm trying to say is by trying to help him "manage" his "oh so fear aggressive" dog we might have changed the relationship of him to the dog and that is something he has to get under control.

If he starts and continues and microanalyses everything she does and literally looks for aggression in anything and everything it's just as dangerous as not taking it seriously at all. Because she will no longer able to rely on him and will take charge over the situation which makes things worse than they actually are.
 
#66 ·
What bugs me a bit is that the sole attention is kept on Kira.

Kira does this, Kira does that, she has this issue she has that issue, it's Kira that is the problem.

We all know that 95% of the time the issue lies on the other end of the leash.

Her behavior is not really surprising to me. Right now the problem is that he's over-analyzing everything she does and expects a problem to arise because he's made BONKERS about her "fear aggression".

You can't do this, you shouldn't do that, you need to be on top of that.

We put FEAR into this man and if he fears her acting out every time, he tenses up, his body language changes and he's no longer free. He may not even realize he's doing it. It's mainly happening subconscious.

However, what I'm trying to say is by trying to help him "manage" his "oh so fear aggressive" dog we might have changed the relationship of him to the dog and that is something he has to get under control.

If he starts and continues and microanalyses everything she does and literally looks for aggression in anything and everything it's just as dangerous as not taking it seriously at all. Because she will no longer able to rely on him and will take charge over the situation which makes things worse than they actually are.
If Kira is displaying normal GSD behavior, what do you want to change?
What ARE you doing? I'm not being snarky, but you don't like her behavior, so how are you correcting it?

I don't think barking at teenage kids should be tolerated. That's my opinion. Whether or not we want to determine WHY she's doing it, I guess that's up to us.
As far as correcting it, I can easily call her back.
Here's the problem... I'm not always there to do this. I could be sitting in my back yard, or relaxing in my easy chair, and she would bolt up at the first sight of a stranger.
I'm not quick enough, and not always on guard for this. It happens in a flash.
When she does do this, I get up, tell her to "knock it off", and put myself between her and what she's barking at.

In some cases, the gate might be open, and she would bolt towards the stranger, barking. She would scare the bejeezus out of someone, before I can get there to correct it.

Last night (when she scared the teen into the house), I was positioned to stop and drop her.
I think this is what's going to determine how she reacts in the long run, and if you want to discuss it and get feedback on what would work best for you, you'll have to describe your actions too.
Another thing, how old is Kira now?
Kira is now 13 months

Agreed. Which basically is the same thing I'm saying. She feels that she is in charge and needs to make that decision to discriminate between friend and foe if that is what is really happening.

Just take her out of the picture, don't let her make the decision, YOU make it for her.
Understood. Not always possible. I need to catch her before she bolts.
 
#57 ·
I'm sure this didn't happen over night. Kira is young. I'm still raising her as a pup. I see a potential issue, I come here for answers.
Is that not why we have this forum?

Or should we all just sit around and brag about our accomplishments, and pound our chest?
My dog is better than your dog nonsense.


I can't believe I just read that. You are looking for help, yes? Best not to snark at those who are trying to help you.

The dog is not a toy. I know the "attack" video was a joke, and it happened a while ago, but this bears repeating: if you don't want her to be aggressive, don't encourage aggression. I know it is just play, pretty harmless in this case, but this kind of *thinking* will confuse the dog. Do you want her to be aggressive or not?

You have done a really good job socializing Kira and getting her past her fears. She has come a long way, and she is still young, and has a way to go yet. You have come a long way also, in your thinking and training. But the whole way I sense a common thread--from the time where you were proud of her because she "grew a pair" and barked at a bigger dog that had rolled her as pup--to asking her to "harass" your wife. I sense that, somewhere deep down, you want a tough, bad-arse GSD, and Kira isn't one. There's nothing wrong with that.

I know you realize that cognitively, but it will help if you truly "get it" at all levels. I think she is picking up on your unconscious thoughts and desires, and trying very hard to please you, but she gets confused when under stress, as she isn't quite sure what you want her to do.

I think both of you will eventually figure it all out and get past these issues, but in the meantime, you need to be open to what others are telling you, especially if you ASK for help and advice.
 
#58 · (Edited)
If he starts and continues to microanalyses everything she does and literally looks for aggression in anything and everything it's just as dangerous as not taking it seriously at all.
I think many owners are this way anyway.

I'm the opposite. I live with my dogs and know them so well, I know they are never a danger so forget to watch. We take it for granted they won't bite anyone.

But if you didn't know better, she'd scare the bloomers off you.
A lot of people like that about their Shepherds.
Isn't that why we got them? Besides beauty and intelligence, anyway, a lot of us, well, we anyway, wanted a dog to "scare the bloomers off" people so they don't try any funny business around our home.
A dog to just look intimidating is enough. If they bark, all the better!
If we didn't care about the intimidation factor we'd have gotten another Dachshund!
 
#61 ·
All the canine psychoanalysis aside..............I think Bill Sharp gives very simple, easy to follow, and sound advice.

In my mind, her doggy mind should not ever be asked or allowed to discriminate friend or foe
 
#64 ·
Agreed. Which basically is the same thing I'm saying. She feels that she is in charge and needs to make that decision to discriminate between friend and foe if that is what is really happening.

Just take her out of the picture, don't let her make the decision, YOU make it for her.
 
#63 · (Edited)
Anthony this is not directly related to your dog.
When reading the responses here and on other threads I realize that I raised a bunch of dogs both GSD and other over the years and never concerned myself with whether they were afraid or not.

I had nice family dogs who were happy and never bit anyone or even came close. Except for one rescue dog I have mentioned before.

Now all of my dogs, GSD or not barked at strange people and strange dogs that entered the property or house unannounced. Personally I think it is normal and I would wonder about any dog who pretended everything was just fine with some stranger wandering around the house.

The only one of those scenarios your girl did that would concern me is where she chased the guy on the porch.

I am starting to wonder why so many people think that if a dog barks at strangers or strange dogs that somehow translates into fear. If that is the criteria for fearful dogs then we have millions of them floating around.

Your dog may not have the greatest nerve base but if she obeys your commands then you are ahead of the game.

Anyone ever walk up to or near a K9 dog in the car barking it's fool head off. Is he/she afraid?
 
#65 ·
I am starting to wonder why so many people think that if a dog barks at strangers or strange dogs that somehow translates into fear. If that is the criteria for fearful dogs then we have millions of them floating around.
I keep hearing the term "strangers" but then the "strangers" are kids who are regulars at the house as well as the mother in law who we would presume is also known to the dog. Dogs remember folks for a looooong time. My dogs even would know my parents after months of not seeing them..................
 
#67 ·
So you're saying that your dogs don't bark at strangers, and it's because they are simply "like that"? And you had nothing to do with that?

how to get rid of this red --- pretend it is in black ---

yes . when I am here and with the people the dogs read my acceptance and relaxed state --- if I were in the house and people got out of their car I would know long before you hit the front door . If the dog was in the house and one of the kids opened the door to let a friend in the dog would look to see , be a nosy parker , but would be neutral -- I used to be a block parent and we would have a 6 foot sofa lined with kids "boat people" arriving in our neighbourhood and the dogs would love them up , especially fond of children -- not just one dog , years and decades of them. Something to do with it. Yeah . Selection process in breeding . Not training them to be like that .

So I share what knowledge I have gained and continue to gain . Don't have to . Love to , though.
 
#73 ·
So you're saying that your dogs don't bark at strangers, and it's because they are simply "like that"? And you had nothing to do with that?

how to get rid of this red --- pretend it is in black ---

yes . when I am here and with the people the dogs read my acceptance and relaxed state --- if I were in the house and people got out of their car I would know long before you hit the front door . If the dog was in the house and one of the kids opened the door to let a friend in the dog would look to see , be a nosy parker , but would be neutral -- I used to be a block parent and we would have a 6 foot sofa lined with kids "boat people" arriving in our neighbourhood and the dogs would love them up , especially fond of children -- not just one dog , years and decades of them. Something to do with it. Yeah . Selection process in breeding . Not training them to be like that .

So I share what knowledge I have gained and continue to gain . Don't have to . Love to , though.
I think you give your dogs too much credit. You're a very intuitive owner, and your dogs are trained to understand you.
You may not realize it, but you did train them.
 
#70 ·
Like a bad bank balance I had to get out of the RED.

Anthony your words
"All of a sudden, Kira goes bonkers!!
Her hackles are up from head to tail, her teeth are chomping at the gate that separates the kitchen and where the dog entered.
She was livid, and very imposing."

The dog was SCARED , not livid .
The person that "walked in" was an invited guest . Your daughter opened the door and invited her in "My 8 year old daughter was over her house for a playdate.
About 6 pm, my daughter simply opens the front door to my house, and the neighbor walks in my house with her dog OFF LEASH, and FREE on my floor."
Maybe you were livid that the chi dog was free on your floor. Not the brightest idea -- but when the daughter was at the door , you could have been welcoming yourself - give the dog an indication of your being okay, and asked the visitor to carry the chi dog .
That is why I used the example of my home being the hub of young teen life , coming and going , in drifts and waves , always made welcome .


"Kira is the most mild mannered, quite dog I've seen. Never barks at anyone, and I've trained her to respect people coming into my home"

totally opposite of the scenario you are presenting in this thread -- quotes pulled from recent "neighbour took some risky chances"

that is the point of the harrassing wife -- the dog is confused -- this will not help her sort things out .
 
#71 · (Edited)
I don't think barking at teenage kids should be tolerated. That's my opinion. Whether or not we want to determine WHY she's doing it, I guess that's up to us.
As far as correcting it, I can easily call her back.
Here's the problem... I'm not always there to do this. I could be sitting in my back yard, or relaxing in my easy chair, and she would bolt up at the first sight of a stranger.
I'm not quick enough, and not always on guard for this. It happens in a flash.
When she does do this, I get up, tell her to "knock it off", and put myself between her and what she's barking at.

In some cases, the gate might be open, and she would bolt towards the stranger, barking. She would scare the bejeezus out of someone, before I can get there to correct it.

DO NOT LEAVE THE GATE OPEN! You KNOW the problem. Your kids are old enough to understand, why the heck would the gate be open if you know what the issue is?

Last night (when she scared the teen into the house), I was positioned to stop and drop her.
First of all, barking at the door when a stranger is knocking or ringing, is not a big issue. It's absolutely normal for a dog to alert "Hey, there is a stranger at the door."

If you know that there is a guest coming, you can control the situation. Why wouldn't you control the situation? When I know I have guests coming that bring another dog, I formally introduce the dog to the pack. That doesn't mean that I throw the dog into the house. No, I control the situation and how they are introduced to another dog.

When the dog warden came to see how our dogs live (remember the accident between my friend and Nala, he picked up a stick and she went for it and got his pinky in the process and he ended up going to the ER and lied about what happened?). I controlled the situation. The third one was out with my husband, the two girls at home. When the car rolled into the drive way, I went to the door, the girls had to make room and respect my space. I let the dog warden in, I BROUGHT her into the house and the dogs were calm, did not jump up or suck up to her, no butt wiggling or concerned/worried at all.
No stranger should be allowed to simply walk in and out of the house. I hate when people do that anyways. It's disrespectful. Even if I am your best friend, I'd still walk up to the door, knock and step back down until YOU open the door and invite me in. It's MANNERS!

You know how much traffic is going in and out of YOUR house. You know how it is, your kids have to be in this as well.
It's not that hard, your kids can take responsibility. We did it back then. Five males in the house, kids coming in and out on a daily basis. It was normal procedure. If we were alone, the dogs went into the trailer, period, or they were in the backyard, in the house whatever...

If you can't control the situation, it's YOU that is the problem, NOT the dog!
 
#72 · (Edited)
Andy, re general statement

This is true...I was actually trying to figure out what IS appropriate. Beau (12 months) just wants anybody that comes near his crate in the truck to pet him and really does not alarm bark at all. . Actually quite aloof to strangers all the way around and does not really seem to bark much at all. Works for me.

Grim is 9 and does alarm bark and you would think he would remove your arm if you touch his truck. Before I got him he was trained in bitework and had a bark and hold etc., the irony is I think a total stranger who ignores his barking could take him right out of the truck and he would be fine (which also is not appropriate) not sure why the barking.......other than to "notify".....

I am certain an appropriate GSD should not let folks come in and rob you blind and would be safe for all, but I would not lay that claim on my guys..........
 
#74 ·
nonsense -- because they are the SAME animal if they leave my house at 8 weeks and live with another family, or trainer , or leave my house, or Mike Clays place when they are 12 - 18 months to join a police dept with another handler , never ever ever seeing me, or us again for their entire lives. I have had so many police dogs do public relations, metro Toronto got community support because of the public relations that Tell and Keno did with their respective handlers, same for Kawartha Lakes, Baltimore Maryland, Kingston , Rochester ............

Look to Jynx. Till you understand this you won't understand the dynamics going on between you and your dog.
 
#78 ·
Carmen, with all due respect, a good puppy can seriously get ****ed up by the wrong person and turned into an anti-social maniac.

The owners make or break the dog. If it was that easy, saying that the owner doesn't play a role in how a dog turns out... come on Carmen...
 
#79 ·
ahhhh , on a note before I get to work ..... what then is the point in examining pedigrees and trying to understand what the potentials and limitations may be ?

If all, including , temperament, is trained into the dog?

If that were 100% true, then my Kira's strong pedigree should've solved all her problems.

Her father is Remo, who happens to be World Seiger 2011, and her mom is a 2009 National Seiger winner. I'd say they have decent credentials.

Feel free:

IKira Von Wilhendorf - German Shepherd Dog
 
#76 ·
So if I'm interpreting this correctly, you have 3 different ways of dealing with the rushing/barking:
1) "Down" and Kira drops in place
2) "Knock it off" and you move to block
3) "Spot" and she goes to her bed

As Msvette2u mentioned, muscle memory. If you picked one way to deal with this, and you were consistant with it, it would be easier for you both.
For instance, my last GSD was trained to "Down" whenever one of the many free-roaming dogs in our neighborhood walked past our property. After a while, he just automatically lay down whenever he saw another dog walk down the road, leashed or not, without me saying a word.

There seems to be alot of activity going on at you house, and to have any success with this, you may have to keep Kira on a long line with you for a while to get anywhere. Decide on the 1 behavior you'd like from her, instead of 3. She's still very very young and needs your direction.
 
#80 ·
Yah, those "issues" can easily be fixed.

Of course a dog is running to the gate when a stranger approaches. Nothing new. It's the dogs territory, so don't leave the gate open. If it is the kids that leave it open, have a talk with them and put a sign on the gate to ALWAYS close the gate. There, problem fixed!

If you know that you get a guest, control the situation. Either take the dog out of the picture or when you hear the car pull up in the drive way, be at the door already.

Another thing you can do is to get a mannersminder and condition the dog that anytime the bell rings, she has to go to her place. The mannersminder is actually a perfect tool to do that with.
 
#81 ·
Anthony,

I did not watch the vid. I saw the thread and looked and when I read that you wanted the dog to harass your wife, I just skipped it, figuring it was either a joke, or something that would tick me off, and figured I'd pass.

If constant kid traffic is the norm in the house from puppy on up, then a dog with decent nerves is not going to react to kid traffic. However, if an owner has the dog on lead and is grabbing a tight hold of the lead when kids come over, ready to react to any reaction by the dog, then I think even a dog with good nerve might respond in some way if he suddenly is face to face with someone that does not live there.

I agree with Mrs.K that a lot of time the problem is on the other end of the leash. Someone who has had dogs most of their lives is going to be more relaxed and have expectations for the dog that are specific to what they understand about that dog. Someone who has not had dogs, working dogs, GSD dogs cannot possibly be as relaxed and understand enough about that dog to have expectations for that dog specific to who that dog is.

Your dog is who she is. I do not know if what I have read in this thread indicates weak nerves, or if it indicates a young, maturing dog with a not so experienced set of owners. Be that as it may. For all of us, the dogs are who they are, and we their owners, to be truly responsible for them, have to learn them. People preach socialization, but when people socialize a puppy giving the puppy mixed signals, and responding inappropriately to a pup's reactions, even that can backfire. It sounds like you have socialized her, and she has experiences to draw upon.

At this point, I think it cannot hurt to build her confidence. Whatever her temperament truly is, this cannot hurt, and for a less confident dog, it can really help the owners and the dog gain confidence in each other. A lot of people suggest agility training. Agility training has obstacles and a full body workout for the dog, but it is also VERY treat/praise oriented. No corrections. Lots of treat, lots of praise, fast moving, excitement in the air. Dogs love it, generally. I think you can get similar results with training tricks, or training fly ball, or training many other things, if you keep it fun and light, lots of praise/treats, good things for doing what is wanted. When the dog figures out how to get the goodies from you, it boosts their confidence.

The dog is who she is, yes. This is true. But it is not true too. The dog is born with a certain amount of potential. There are things we can do to help them reach their potential. There are things that we owners can do that will reduce our dogs' ability to function properly in a variety of situations.

I think a lot of times we have expectations for our new dog, we want a dog that will be and obedience champion, or a dog that will be a good protection dog, we want a dog that will run six miles every day with us, or a dog that will decorate our living room, and be a couch potato. I think that sometimes we try to shove a square peg into a round hole. That is just not comfortable for us and certainly not comfortable for the dog. The point is to find where your pup's strengths lie, and to run with it. Set her up to succeed and then praise her for it. Keep it light, fast paced, fun, and quit with her wanting more.

I am hearing people say over and over she is what she is, but that is not a pass to give up on her or to excuse her behavior. It just means that for this dog, you need to be that much more conscious of her confidence levels in all situations, try to build her confidence, and at the same time reduce the opportunity for her to get to the place where she might react. Learn her.

Good luck.
 
#88 ·
Anthony, you might need to be a little more proactive. :)

One example. Last night Kira chased someone from your yard into the house. First you let her do what she wanted to do, and then you reacted. Even if it all transpired in a few seconds, Kira was calling the shots to begin with. Do you see that?
You need to reverse that process and take control from the get go in any situation that Kira might overreact to. If you aren't sure, error on the side of safety. If Kira had been on a leash in the truck she couldn't have chased your daughter's friend. The down from a dead run is good to have but you can't continue to use it for control, you're playing with fire. :(

Have you had Kira evaluated in person by someone who knows GSD's or works with reactive dogs?
 
#90 · (Edited)
Anthony, you might need to be a little more proactive. :)

One example. Last night Kira chased someone from your yard into the house. First you let her do what she wanted to do, and then you reacted. Even if it all transpired in a few seconds, Kira was calling the shots to begin with. Do you see that?
You need to reverse that process and take control from the get go in any situation that Kira might overreact to. If you aren't sure, error on the side of safety. If Kira had been on a leash in the truck she couldn't have chased your daughter's friend. The down from a dead run is good to have but you can't continue to use it for control, you're playing with fire. :(

Have you had Kira evaluated in person by someone who knows GSD's or works with reactive dogs?


Her obedience trainer loves her, and is amazed at her temperament, and ability to follow instruction. She routinely works her around other dogs, and never an issue. Loads of people there too. No issues.
Only gets a little nutty at home.

I've been letting Kira out of our truck (off leash) for months. She would routinely get out, and wait for me at the bottom of my front steps. In this case, there was someone on my top steps (first time that's happened, and I didn't see them either. I'm old, and it was dark). I honestly didn't see this coming.
As soon as I saw what happened I reacted.
 
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