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Theoretical parallel discussion on dog biting from another thread

14K views 124 replies 30 participants last post by  4TheDawgies 
#1 ·
I am not an expert in dog behaviour, but I will post to offer a 'general public/dog appreciator' opinion. To me, once a dog bites a human, that dog is and should be at high risk of being put down.

If you are willing to do the work to train her, she may be able to be rehabilitated. (We had a dog who was a fear biter when I was a child, and with a behaviourist he was rehabilitated and never bit again, after biting me twice and a neighbour girl once). I know it's possible.

But. If you don't have it in you, that is fair enough. I'm surprised to see so many guilting responses here, honestly. The dog bit somebody with no objective provocation and no warning. Choosing to work with that is a risky decision. Choosing to give the dog back to the rescue, or euthanize, in everywhere but internet-land will be considered a very sane choice to make.
 
#3 ·
My thoughts exactly. My mother's lab mix becomes defensive when strangers wave stuff by his head... We have always just warned people and ensured his comfort around new people by having them play fetch with a tennis ball.
 
#4 ·
Yes I understand that.

But realistically, in this world, there will be strangers walking by with sticks or hats or whatever random object scares the dog. Dogs are domestic animals and need to be able to operate safely in society.

Fear aggression is a difficult thing to work with. People here are saying you have to manage the dog for the rest of its life, most of the time. That is a huge undertaking, a lifestyle adjustment and an enormous liability, and it's okay not to want to do that.

I don't think it does dogs in general a disservice to put down those who are aggressive. In fact I think quite the opposite, because dogs that bite cause problems for dogs in general. I'm not saying a dog that bites must be put down, I think choosing to take on the big responsibility of working with that dog is a very valid choice. Sometimes an admirable one, sometimes a stupid one. I don't think it's inherently better though than saying you know what, this is too much, this is not what I signed on for and I'm not willing to take the risk of owning an animal that has shown it will bite people for unpredictable reasons.
 
#10 ·
I'm not willing to take the risk of owning an animal that has shown it will bite people for unpredictable reasons.
I seriously do not think that this dog bite was unpredictable at all. Lots of dogs might have reacted the same way, again like someone else said....only a fool would do this with any dog, much less a dog that they didn't know. I can't even guarantee what my own dogs reaction would be if someone did that to them...of course if I would have lots to say if someone attempted to do this to my dog.
 
#6 ·
I am not an expert in dog behaviour, but I will post to offer a 'general public/dog appreciator' opinion. To me, once a dog bites a human, that dog is and should be at high risk of being put down.

The dog bit somebody with no objective provocation and no warning. Choosing to work with that is a risky decision. Choosing to give the dog back to the rescue, or euthanize, in everywhere but internet-land will be considered a very sane choice to make.
First I don't think your opinion is a general public/dog appreciator opinion at all...that is my opinion. Second, there are many different situations that dogs bite everyday...some provoked, some not..still not up to anyone to decide or state that the dog should be put down. And if you read the post the man waved a stick over the dogs head and given its a rescue and no history is known, you don't think that provoked the dog? If that dog was ever abused by a man it had no idea that this particular man was any different. Suggesting that this dog is put to sleep is way over the top...I and many others seem to think this is human error(that can be fixed) if worked on...nothing in this life comes easy and this is no different. Say what you like but don't suggest euthanizing a dog that clearly needs help...that is not the general opinion in this case.
 
#7 ·
Yes, that is true. I dont know if the man deliberately taunted the dog or walked by and waved it near her.

There are a lot of fools in this world.

I think a lot depends on whether this behaviour was taunting intentionally, or whether you can reasonably expect it or something like it to happen again. If the guy was coming at the dog, that is one thing. Going by and being careless, to me it is unreasonable to expect a basic standard of dog ownership to include keeping a dog that will bite in any but the most extreme circumstance.
 
#15 ·
.my boyfriend should have never grabbed her while she was in that state...human error.
I'm sorry but this is hogwash, IMO.
I've had to move dozens of dogs, or more, when they are sick and vomiting. They are more interested in vomiting than biting someone.
No clue what was going on there, but if you can't move a dog (by collar or not), while it's vomiting, without fear of being bitten, there is a problem.
 
#18 ·
They lost my response to this:confused: What I said is...I don't see it as a problem. I was not there to witness it, but I'm sure that he grabbed her in a not so nice way(he doesn't know much about dogs). I move her all the time if she is vomiting or if she is on the bed vomiting versus the floor, etc. She has never gone after me and I'm not afraid to move her. She loves all people and all animals without a doubt. The boyfriend handle it completely wrong.
 
#16 ·
... I love this dog with all my heart, she really is an awesome dog. All of my friends LOVE her and she's never had an issue with anyone...
....I am very attached to her already as is my girlfriend. She started to cry at the thought of giving Zoey back up as did I....
....I love this dog.....
I love this dog to death...
I truly just want the best for Zoey....
... I don't know if i can give her up now...
... I read the email and started to cry.... I'm a 24 y/o male @ work reading this, thought I was a lot stronger than this....
What do I think? :) Put up or shut up. :D Honestly I say that in all sweet sincerity. You love this dog. You want the best for this dog. This dog is perhaps "over your head," but I took on such a dog a few months back, too. Not the same issues, but you learn as you go. :) I'm 4+ months in with my "challenge," and I don't regret it for a single second. Now, if you had talked to me 2 or 3 months ago? :eek: Different answers probably. Is it "easy" now? NO! But we've had enough time now to bond, to develop routines, to work on basic training, etc.

You've put lots of money into this. Now you need management, training, time, dedication and bond building. You can do this thing if you want to do this thing. You know her triggers. (Men, it sounds like.) Sure, a trainer to come in would be invaluable, but you can work this with LAT, NILIF and be much farther along than where you were! When you see success with such things, it will boost your confidence.

Did I cry at times? YEAH! He was a nutjob! He bashed me into walls! :rofl: I would lay in my bed thinking oh my goodness, WHAT have I done taking in this crazy dog??? I do NOT know what I'm doing here! (And I didn't.) I asked questions and slooowly, but surely, he wormed himself into my heart and as I tried various suggestions, they began to work... and life slowly became easier.

There are no overnight cures. No easy answers and no one size fits all solutions.

The answer is in your own heart and you'll find it. Just do your best to get off the fence and go one direction or another.
 
#17 ·
#19 ·
chelle - that thread is in another forum. This thread is a discussion that went off from the original topic and is now moved.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...4344-my-dog-bit-my-friends-father-helppp.html

When people kept posting after I said create a new thread, you may have lost some of your posts.
Agh! :) I took a long time to make that post, so I guess in the meantime it moved around... I don't want it on this thread. I don't think I even want to engage on this thread. :laugh: I just wanted to reply to the OP. I'll try to cut and paste?

Thanks!
 
#21 ·
I want to say I didn't make a red frowny face with the original post of this thread.

I also didn't post to have a theoretical discussion, but because the original poster in the other thread was being guilted to keep the dog as the only reasonable choice. That was why I posted as I did.
 
#22 ·
Just because a dog bites a person does mean the dog is a "Biter" and needs to be put down.

Depends entirly upon the circumstances in my mind. OTOH, waving a stick toward a dog is certainly no justification for the dog to bite - hitting the dog with a stick is another matter but I don't believe that we really know what actually happened (I don't, at any rate) so cannot make a judgement call.

I have had GSD's who have bitten - no thought ever to get rid of or put them down. The circumstances were entirely justified to me and others around us. The one with the most bites (3) was an entirely trustworthy dog who I would and did trust entirely around little kids and other dogs and even strange cats.

Only the owners know what really happened that day.
 
#23 ·
Just because a dog bites a person does mean the dog is a "Biter" and needs to be put down.

Depends entirly upon the circumstances in my mind. OTOH, waving a stick toward a dog is certainly no justification for the dog to bite - hitting the dog with a stick is another matter but I don't believe that we really know what actually happened (I don't, at any rate) so cannot make a judgement call.

I have had GSD's who have bitten - no thought ever to get rid of or put them down. The circumstances were entirely justified to me and others around us. The one with the most bites (3) was an entirely trustworthy dog who I would and did trust entirely around little kids and other dogs and even strange cats.

Only the owners know what really happened that day.
Stop the presses. NOW. I agree with Cod. I even want to give him the thumbs up emoticon. :eek:

Seriously, though. Who knows what that dog had been thru.? Had it been beaten with a stick? Clearly something had happened with that dog and a stick -- and considering its reaction to males with sticks -- it isn't that far off the mark to presume the dog had been hit by a male with a stick.

No one will ever know. Only time will tell. Should this dog continue to be aggressive, or become more aggressive? Perhaps harder decisions would need to be made.

I know I talk about Tucker a lot -- sorry -- but when he first got here and I touched his neck, he'd put teeth on me and become agitated. Very light, didn't hurt, but he didn't like it. It came from his past. No, he never bit or broke my skin, but that's not the point. Point being, I suppose, is that he had history there and if I would've pushed it too hard? He likely may have bitten me. Minerva, had I done that -- overwhelmed him - he may have been the type of dog you're talking about. Then where would he be?

Not alive.
 
#26 ·
, but I will post to offer a 'general public/dog appreciator' opinion. To me, once a dog bites a human, that dog is and should be at high risk of being put down. QUOTE]

I don't agree either that this is the general dog appreciator opinion. Dogs have teeth. Depending on the context they might be end up biting a human. I have been bitten several times by cats. Yet, no one ever suggests putting a cat down because it bit a person. People seem to know that cats bite and that's part of nature.

I grew up in a different era and in the countryside. Back then, people assumed that if you did something stupid or in some set of circumstances a dog might end up biting you. People never leapt to the conclusion that it is a bad dog that should be put down or even that it needed special management necessarily. People grew up respecting dogs and knew how to deal with a variety of them. Sadly, as most people spend all their lives in the city and never interact with all sorts of dogs on a daily basis anymore basic dog sense seems to have left the general population.

More than half of people who own a GSD should probably own a diffferent breed or no dog at all. These days you have to protect your dog from people who don't have dog sense including many dog owners.
 
#30 ·
To me, once a dog bites a human, that dog is and should be at high risk of being put down.

Preposterous!!!

I think it's reasonable to want a dog that can be trusted to deal with the people it is likely to come across, idiots and all.
I have one. Then she bit someone.

Any dog given the right set of circumstances can bite!

My girl is still an extremely trustworthy dog - except for that one particular set of circumstances.

She was never at any level of risk to be put down!!
 
#33 ·
haha..I always like it when they spilt up 2 threads....chaos :D

I really just wanted to ask everybody's 2 cents on this.......what would a dog have to do...to be considered unfixable or untrainable? How would you know a dog has a screw loose? I get that biting a kid would rank pretty high on most peoples list......but what else would you consider to be a red flag and give up??
 
#34 ·
Every situation is unique and has to be analyzed. A bite is not always a vicious unprovoked attack.

I miss the old days. Animals were animals. Crazy wasn't ever good but did not occur often. Dogs bite sometimes. Horses buck. Cows kick. Cats scratch. I have been on the receiving end of those things.

I had a dog bite a kid. Not a dangerous dog at all who continued to live, love and be loved the rest of his life. I was able to tell the kid "I told you so" and I hope he learned something.

I am not cavalier with dogs though. I see people put animals in situations and expect so much more of animal brains than should be expected of animal brains. These are animals and I love them for that but I don't have an unrealistic expectation of them. I think much of our culture is not on that page though.
 
#40 ·
Every situation is unique and has to be analyzed. A bite is not always a vicious unprovoked attack.

I miss the old days. Animals were animals. Crazy wasn't ever good but did not occur often. Dogs bite sometimes. Horses buck. Cows kick. Cats scratch. I have been on the receiving end of those things.

I had a dog bite a kid. Not a dangerous dog at all who continued to live, love and be loved the rest of his life. I was able to tell the kid "I told you so" and I hope he learned something.

I am not cavalier with dogs though. I see people put animals in situations and expect so much more of animal brains than should be expected of animal brains. These are animals and I love them for that but I don't have an unrealistic expectation of them. I think much of our culture is not on that page though.
I agree

I had an unfornunate event happen in our family. If they had this attitude, the dog would have lived a long healthy life. My sister adopted an adult Irish Setter and had just brought her home. My sister's child (can't remember age, but under 4 and was a visitor to the house) was petting the dog, pulling on her ears, and the dog growled and air snapped, no contact. I had told them not to let the dog and child be together unitl we knew more about the dog. Nope, child got right in the dogs face, with an adult (mother) right beside the child. Their attitude was a dog should be good with children not matter what yap yap yap.

My brother shot the dog. This was 35+ years ago and I still cannot forgive him for this, nor my parents allowing this to happen. My sister and my brother did not have a good relationship after that for the longest time. I tell you that I do not like it when my brother is around me and my dog.

I'm in the "it depends" group. Every situation in unique and the conclusions you reach are something that you have to live with the rest of your life, or the dog's life. It depend, on the handler, the dog, the situation.
 
#36 ·
This world has really gotten out of hand. People expect animals to behave better than people and we will kill then if they don't but we let our children behave like wild animals and do nothing when they misbehave, mistreat, bully or torment animals, other kids or even old people.

Makes no sense to me.
 
#39 ·
I hope it's clear that I am also in the 'it depends' group.

And I agree about unruly children today.

As I said in the other thread, I was bitten twice by our family dog as a child. Once on the face (four stitches, looks like a dimple now), and once on the hand. A neighbour girl was also bitten by him.

It was my family's fault (bad training methods), and he was (really we were) re-trained by a police dog trainer who happened to live at the end of our street. He went on to live another ten years and never bit anyone again.

I'm just saying that if you have a dog that bites, particularly a large powerful dog who bites in unpredictable circumstances, that is a lot to take on. We need dogs who can be trusted. I'm not saying this dog can't be trusted, that she wont' be able to be trusted in the future. She might. But it's a lot.

When my daughter was 3 she pulled my sleeping pit bull off the sofa. Dog snapped at her, scared the crap out of her, teeth came together millimetres from my child's temple. Do I think the miss was an accident? No I do not and I attribute it to the excellent temperament of my pit bull. The situation was clearly my fault, but if I had a dog that would bite my child on the face and draw blood? I would not have kept the dog.

There are many dogs who need loving homes who do not bite. This dog is breathtakingly beautiful, she seems to have wonderful qualities and I'm not saying she shouldn't be worked with. But if it's too much, that is fair enough. We can't pressure people that every biting dog must be saved, because we will have more dog bites that way IMO. And the last thing dogs in general need are more dog bites.
 
#49 ·
Adult decisions about animals and children really do matter. A dog can not make the "right" deision in human terms and children have limited understanding.

I in no way make excuses for instability. But, people should never expect normal dogs not to bite!
:thumbup:

It's all about bite threshold. Just because you haven't found your own dogs' yet, doesn't mean it does not exist.



I find comments like this to be inflammatory and useless at best in discussions involving dogs.
 
#43 ·
I agree that people are idiots about dogs, and assume all kinds of human traits. Even the 'my baby' stuff here is off, in my opinion. It's a dog!

To me though, this is the society we live in. Yes people need to be a lot better educated. Owners particularly, though if society in general wasn't so ridiculously stupid about dogs that would be great.

But given the circumstances, we need reliable dogs that don't bite except in the most extreme situations. And we have a lot of those, sitting in shelters and rescues.
 
#44 ·
I seriously don't get it.

*Note: "You" is the collective you, not anybody in particular.*

I have horses, I'd never allow your children to go play hopscotch in the stall with one of my horses. Nor would I allow your children in my barn without adult supervision. I wouldn't allow you in my barn with out my supervision. And my horses have NEVER kicked /bit / attacked/ ran over etc. anybody.

I have dogs. I wouldn't allow your children to play near my dogs. Nor would allow your children to go into my backyard, house, kennel area, front yard etc. with out my supervision. Nor would I allow you.

I have cats...well, they won't allow you near them, so I really don't have to safe guard the human population agaisnt them.

I have one dog that has bitten. He has bitten me. He has medical issues. I can keep him from the general public. I can keep him safe from you and you from him. If I lived in an apartment or had neighbors who lived right next to me, he would have been PTS years ago. If I couldn't manage him then I wouldn't expect anybody else to.

I had a GSD as a youth that bit someone in the face. She saved me from being raped and drowned. She never bit before, or after. She was also around my daughter as an infant. She was a great dog.
 
#45 ·
That is great for you.

I need dogs who can be around playing children, who can deal with my own and other children in the backyard, in the playroom, in the house in general.

If you can keep your dogs contained from things even though you feel they might bite in those circumstances, as long as you are successful in your containment you will not have a problem.

But overall, dogs are going to be around many things in this society, including playing children, and they need to not bite them.

I wonder how many people here eat meat? I find it odd that the 'rights' of dogs who may bite are being so vigorously defended, and I'm assuming I'm not talking to a bunch of vegans here.

Dogs are animals. If they are going to coexist in our towns and cities, they need to not do violence to people.

This conversation surprises me greatly, to be honest.
 
#47 ·
Oh crud. My friend left her dog outside with playing children. This is something I never do and advise strongly against. These are animals and children, after all. My friend's dog is dead. She has been unable emotionally to pick up her pup's ashes. We can not put the toddler down, of course. Adult decisions about animals and children really do matter. A dog can not make the "right" deision in human terms and children have limited understanding.

I in no way make excuses for instability. But, people should never expect normal dogs not to bite!
 
#48 ·
Personally, the only time I can remember anyone recommending a dog be euthanized on this board was when a dog almost killed a child. However, 99% of the time we on this board in "Internet Land" do not have the appropriate information to advise someone to euthanize their dog. That would be highly irresponsible for any of us to advise that given that we have never seen the animal and that 99.9% of us on here are not trainers or behaviorist.

We do have a HA dog. We manage her, she has never in her almost 13 years bitten anyone. We know what caused the HA and we limit her exposure to strangers. If someone comes to the house, she is leashed and not allowed to go near them unless she settles down and then they treat her. It's a choice we made and we don't regret it. Given our experience, I think your notion that HA should be an automatic death sentence ridiculous and your comment above regarding dogs in shelters offensive. So, in your thinking, I should have killed Banshee and adopted a different dog? That is how your statements reads, I'm sure to more than just me.
 
#50 ·
I did state very clearly that I am in the 'it depends' camp, over and over again. If you can manage your dog effectively, that is wonderful. Truly. You can't have it as an expectation for all people.

Oh crud. My friend left her dog outside with playing children. This is something I never do and advise strongly against. These are animals and children, after all. My friend's dog is dead. She has been unable emotionally to pick up her pup's ashes. We can not put the toddler down, of course. Adult decisions about animals and children really do matter. A dog can not make the "right" deision in human terms and children have limited understanding.

I in no way make excuses for instability. But, people should never expect normal dogs not to bite!
I do very much expect my dogs to be able to be around playing children and not bite. I would not keep a dog that threatened children for just being children. The warning snap my dog gave my child years ago was because the child was manhandling her disrespectfully. Had that same dog snapped at my child's face for regular child behaviour, she would have been gone. And had she broken skin near my child's eye even in the circumstances she was in? She also would have been gone.

"Oh that scar next to my daughter's left eye? That's from the pit bull, yes the one sleeping over there on her dog bed." Not in a million years.
 
#51 ·
with all my own dogs and my fosters ived had(too many to count) everytime a kid runs up and asks..can i pet your dog does he bite? my reply is always the same ALL dogs bite. if we humans would get that thru our heads that all dogs are capable of biting it might be better. Just like all snakes hiss,cats meows and scratches,cows go moo..im not saying that all dogs should bite and allow to bite..but what im saying is sometimes its a natural reaction..kinda like when i stub my toe on the couch i can not control the first few bad words that escape my mouth
 
#53 ·
I think that's a great answer that you are giving strange kids.

I think it's a matter of when. If the dog bites while you are torturing it, that's one thing.

If the dog bites in circumstances that are likely to occur in the course of normal life, in my opinion it is not a safe dog to have. If you can train or contain it, good. If not, fair enough.
 
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