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Theoretical parallel discussion on dog biting from another thread

14K views 124 replies 30 participants last post by  4TheDawgies 
#1 ·
I am not an expert in dog behaviour, but I will post to offer a 'general public/dog appreciator' opinion. To me, once a dog bites a human, that dog is and should be at high risk of being put down.

If you are willing to do the work to train her, she may be able to be rehabilitated. (We had a dog who was a fear biter when I was a child, and with a behaviourist he was rehabilitated and never bit again, after biting me twice and a neighbour girl once). I know it's possible.

But. If you don't have it in you, that is fair enough. I'm surprised to see so many guilting responses here, honestly. The dog bit somebody with no objective provocation and no warning. Choosing to work with that is a risky decision. Choosing to give the dog back to the rescue, or euthanize, in everywhere but internet-land will be considered a very sane choice to make.
 
#109 ·
I think socialization and training makes a tremendous difference. No I don't think it's everything, but I don't think it's a negligible factor either. I posted on another thread, I believe, that I recently met three Australian Shepherds. Two were adopted at 11 weeks, the last at 15 weeks, from a kennel where they were kept separately from the family and had very little socialization. They were ALL afraid of my kids, the dogs we had with us, and us as adults too. But the one who was adopted at 15 weeks was by far the most terrified. These were 7 months old pups.

My dog is actually a cross, she is mostly Shepherd but has some Lab in her. I do not know what 'lines' she is from but I met the parents and the father did alert barking but both were remarkably friendly. I even approached the father in his kennel on my own, after having been introduced an hour before, and though he alert barked, he became friendly as I approached, so much so that I was able to put my hand to him through the kennel and he responded with licking. So I feel good about the likelihood that my dog genetically will be even tempered, and she demonstrates friendliness so far. She will be extremely, unbelievably well socialized... I'm not sure what that says about my life! LOL. But kids, dogs, cats, all sorts of strange and random occurrances... she has seen it all and does not bat an eye.
 
#110 ·
when my pup was 4 months my husband left himoutof crate one night. I work till 9 or so at night. i was shocked when i had key in the door to hear the pup barking at me. And when i walked in my house which was completley dark before i could find light switch he bit me through my jeans and left good bruise on my butt cheek. :) when i finaly got light on and after me screamin ouch he knew it was me.I petted him and gave him a treat. He did what he was suppose to do..and it was pretty funny.He is very socialized puppy. He goes to work with me somedays(a hair salon) is in puppy classes and we take daily walks to park and schools.
 
#122 ·
Haha that's hilarious! Territoriality will be new for me. Already she barks when people come around.

I've read the same thing about the socialization period, BUT I didn't get mine until she was 12 weeks. I have to say that she is turning out great, but I didn't waste any time when I got her either. She did wonderful in school, loves people and all other animals...working on her jumping on us when we come home..she gets so excited to see us. We are about 85% there with her. I honestly can't wait to get another one. I know that I have to wait about another year or so, but its so hard..I want a little boy:)
Ah that's great. Maybe the breeder socialized her during that time? The dogs I was mentioning who were fearful were kept away from people and very under-socialized.

I want another one too but I'm sticking to one given our living situation. We borrow the neighbour's old dog a lot - company for her and keeps our puppy busy.
 
#111 ·
Every dog I own from a breeder or myself I have access to finding out on detail about the parents and siblings of course. No matter what home these dogs are raised in they all end of with small variations in their personalities, but overall are very consistent in what they are like.
All of the puppies I sold are nearly identical in every way. They just have different names LOL.


Everytime I get in touch with someone who owns a related dog to mine or one of my puppies they always surprise me how alike they are. When I get some of my puppies back to watch them while their owners go on vacation they are just like one of my own.

Genetics have a huge role in what a dog is. It seems like the new people who are so big into socializing are convinced they can change what the genetics say a dog will be.
It can only do so much.
 
#112 ·
Last summer I got a chance to meet my golden's sister and they were as different as night and day as far as I guess it would be personality...possibly temperament. She was shy, tail down, and did not want to be petted. I stood there for 5 minutes talking to them and she completely ignored me hiding behind her owner(she would have crawled into a hole if she could have), never warmed up(she went as far as she could from me to get around me to get back to the car). I learned in the conversation that the owners had some hardships, they couldn't afford puppy classes and from what I got from the conversation they didn't do much with her. Mine on the other hand is super out going and friendly, not shy in the least, he would never hide from anyone that wanted to pet him. I don't think I have ever seen him with his tail down. He did get lots of socialization and training and I believe at the moment I met these people I decided I would always take any dog I got to school and any place else I could to get socialized. I felt sorry for my dog's sister:(
 
#113 ·
That is great! You are doing a wornderful job socializing and your puppy's temperament is a perfect fit for you. Some puppies are a handful, and some a breeze to raise.

Socialization makes a tremendous difference if the dog's nerves are not rock solid enough to start with, and he or she can use some help. Your three aussies example is a perfect illustration.
 
#114 ·
You can take any breed, with the best and not so best of nerves and see a difference between dogs if they are socialized or not socialized. If the dog has poor nerves it has poor nerves, but to say socialization only makes a tremendous difference if the dogs nerves are not rock solid is just an opinion. Even dogs with the best of nerves need socialization.
 
#116 ·
Misty, I had the dog that was socialized, trained, exposed to everything the whole nine yards, and she did tuck her tail and lunge at strangers. The quality of a breeder matters, and good breeders strive for uniformity in their litters. Sometimes even the best breeders get a weak nerved pup, and all socializing and training in the world would not fix this.

I am actually glad my current dog is not my first dog otherwise I would start believing that I am some kind of a dog guru and awesome trainer etc. He is so tuned to me, simply reads my mind, he's so easy to live with and a joy to train. I just know better to give myself credit for his temperament, he's like that because of the right genetics. I count my blessings and always remember to thank his breeder :)
 
#119 ·
I think genetics matters a lot. I just think socialization and training matter a lot too. Particularly socialization.

My parents had two Old English Sheepdogs when I was growing up. The second developed fear aggression and bit me and a neighbour (improved with re-training). My parents' discipline methods were to blame but they were the same idiots with their first Sheepdog, who had an incredible temperament and would even walk my younger brother and I to the bus, and then turn and return home on her own (suburban neighbourhood, no huge streets to cross). The same owners report dogs with widely varying temperaments, and if it were all about socialization, that would not be the case.

On the other hand though, I have read a ton about socialization and the critical 'window' of 8-12 weeks since I got my pup, and I believe in the importance of it very much. The information comes from well respected authorities, and I think it just makes sense that dogs develop a sense of what is 'safe' and what to fear during puppyhood. Their behaviour from that point out, while of course it can always be adjusted to a certain (large) extent with ongoing socialization and training, is affected forevermore by what they learned in that window of time during early puppyhood. I was initially very concerned about parvo, but found statements about how more dogs die from lack of socialization than from parvo, and a statement from I believe an association of veterinary behaviourists? (read it a few weeks ago, it's easily google-able though I'm sure) encouraging socialization in safe contexts during the period of 8-12 weeks of age.
 
#121 ·
I've read the same thing about the socialization period, BUT I didn't get mine until she was 12 weeks. I have to say that she is turning out great, but I didn't waste any time when I got her either. She did wonderful in school, loves people and all other animals...working on her jumping on us when we come home..she gets so excited to see us. We are about 85% there with her. I honestly can't wait to get another one. I know that I have to wait about another year or so, but its so hard..I want a little boy:)
 
#120 ·
I don't know as I'd place an age, or attempt to guess an age in which it all clicked.

If you're like us, you rarely have frightening events at our house, intruders, etc.
So I never worried about seeing my dog "in action", it just occurred and I never worried about it, or tried to figure out what age he'd be, etc.

So many folks get on here upset that their dogs love strangers.
It is my opinion that you want them to love strangers! Going back to "if there's ever a threat, your dog will know it", when they can understand that we let people into our homes, we, as the leader, choose to open the door to someone, that someone is generally not a threat.

So if a threat appeared at our door, they'd know we were not happy about the threat and they'd bark or whatever, they'd help deter the situation.

In fact, 10-11 yrs. ago, we rescued a younger adult GSD, our first GSD together.
That dog had neurosis up the ying yang. But was stable, too, if that makes sense? His neurosis had to do with being dumped, we feel, as he'd panic if he was off our property and we were playing with the dogs, he'd think we were going to drive away without him.

Anyway that's not the story, LOL what happened was we had someone come to do some home repairs we needed done. One of the repairs was in the master bath, off our bedroom.
And Hunter tolerated the stranger in the home just fine. Watchful but not aggressive, or anything of the sort.
However, the worker then headed off to our bedroom and Hunter just started barking and growling at this guy.

He'd accepted people in the home, because we did that, but the person did something other houseguests did not do. The guy started off towards our bedroom and Hunter "knew" that was not normal, typical behavior for a visitor to our home, so he was going to defend our home from this guy.

I just leashed him up and held the leash and told him (the dog) it was okay, and he stayed with me for the duration of the repairs.

Anyway - a dog who acts like that just because someone came over to the house, is a problem, but a dog who has learned to feed off of the human's energy and accept people coming and going, that's wonderful. Then, when someone does something out of the ordinary, makes you upset, or tries to take your TV, that's not going to fly with this dog.
 
#123 ·
He'd accepted people in the home
Anyway - a dog who acts like that just because someone came over to the house, is a problem, but a dog who has learned to feed off of the human's energy and accept people coming and going, that's wonderful. Then, when someone does something out of the ordinary, makes you upset, or tries to take your TV, that's not going to fly with this dog.

When we had the murder-suicide happen with our neighbors, the police were in and out for days. The dogs didn't bark and let them do their job. When they came to us for our statement, the dogs had no problem with them being in the house. The police officer actually played with them and they laid down next to him:)
 
#125 ·
Oh I won't deny that socialization will improve a lot of things on a dog. I am huge on doing it with my puppies. And yes if you keep a dog locked up in a house it's whole life it will be a really strange, shy, and fearful dog. If a dog has solid nerves, It will always have solid nerves. If a dog has a weak temperament it will always have a weak temperament. You can cover it up through socialization and training but if something sets it off the dog will revert back to its original state. If its a weak nerved, weak temperament, low threshold dog then the dog will appear normal to some but will be a mess a lot of the time and quickly revert back to that if the right thing sets it off. That's what I'm getting at
 
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