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Theoretical parallel discussion on dog biting from another thread

14K views 124 replies 30 participants last post by  4TheDawgies 
#1 ·
I am not an expert in dog behaviour, but I will post to offer a 'general public/dog appreciator' opinion. To me, once a dog bites a human, that dog is and should be at high risk of being put down.

If you are willing to do the work to train her, she may be able to be rehabilitated. (We had a dog who was a fear biter when I was a child, and with a behaviourist he was rehabilitated and never bit again, after biting me twice and a neighbour girl once). I know it's possible.

But. If you don't have it in you, that is fair enough. I'm surprised to see so many guilting responses here, honestly. The dog bit somebody with no objective provocation and no warning. Choosing to work with that is a risky decision. Choosing to give the dog back to the rescue, or euthanize, in everywhere but internet-land will be considered a very sane choice to make.
 
#52 ·
To be honest, and I hope I don't sound like an awful parent here, but my dog bit my son once and drew blood. It didn't need stitches or anything, and almost looked like a scratch. But my son had done something stupid to the dog, and he knew better. I totally blamed my son, and not only did he get bit but he also got in trouble from me. Didn't really ever occur to me to euthanize or rehome the dog because I would have bit Michael too if I were the dog. And nothing like that ever happened again, and I totally trust the dog.

One last thing - my son wasn't a young child or toddler. I can't remember his age, but more like early teenager.
 
#55 ·
No I agree with you, in fact I told a story in this thread about a time I did something similar. Though rehoming definitely occurred to me. I would have been devastated, I would have felt at fault (and I would have been) but if I thought the situation would re-arise and my child could be bitten worse I would have rehomed. Luckily my ex partner knew the dog and would have taken her.
 
#58 ·
Neither my kids nor my dog spend extended amounts of time in rooms, while I lay about in peace. :D

My kids are taught to be respectful to animals, and they are. (With the exception of a short stage when my oldest was 3 when she bothered the cat and dog. That was 5 years ago. My children now help with the puppy's care and do not do anything mean to her, ever).

The dog needs to not bite the children.

They all roam about the house together. I usually know pretty much everyone's every move, whether I like it or not.

If the dog bites the children, we re-evaluate seriously whether she can continue to live here. Answer is probably no. Depending on circumstances, if a mild bite and I thought I could correct the problem and it would never ever re-occur, I would do so. Would get a behaviourist. But if there was any doubt in my mind, the dog would not be staying.

My kids regularly go outside and run around with my puppy and my neighbour's retriever. Kids know how to behave respectfully. Both dogs' temperaments are such that they are very unlikely to bite aggressively (puppy very likely to nip, obviously). I wouldn't keep a dog I couldn't trust.
 
#63 ·
i would like to ask the OP a question...a neighborhood child brought her grandfathers yorkies over to my house when she came to play with my daughter...another neighbor was walking his lab and the yorkies flipped out and ran through my fence to get at the lab..i grabbed the one to stop him from running into the street and he bit me mutliple times..even after i set him back on ground. should this dog be put down? should i sue the owner? i was cut pretty bad on my arms and legs.but didnt need stitches
 
#64 ·
Are you asking me?

I'd say that's a dog with a temperament I don't like.

What should you do about it? That is entirely up to you. I wouldn't sue, I'm not a suer. Unless it's a repeated circumstance and you think the yorkie is dangerous or that it's likely to reoccur, I probably wouldn't do much but avoid that dog, myself. If the dog is growling at the whole neighbourhood or routinely gets out of the yard and encounters people it may bite, that is different.
 
#65 ·
yes was asking you your opinion..the dogs are annoying to the neighbors..they act aggressive through their fence,im afraid they will escape and get hurt one day by the dogs they try to attack...i was just wondering if you think they should be put to sleep? in this case i blame the dogs owners for not training or socailizing. i simply told the girls to take the dogs home and not to bring them back and to make sure their grangfather knew they bit me and i was bleeding from bites.but even in this case i would rather see the dogs worked with than killed
 
#66 ·
Personally, I would have called the grandfather and told him to come get the dog and let him see your hand instead of sending the little girl with the message. I would have then told him to train his dogs (yes, that is a training issue...the dog redirected at you when you picked it up when the actual intent was to attack the other dog).
 
#71 ·
I agree with this.

To me, if it is neighbour dogs and I think they will bite me again, I would try to do something about it, including calling Animal Control and making a bite report, to start.

If they were my dogs I would be freaking out.

Why, yes, that is what I'm suggesting. My dogs haven't been socialized around children, so it's my responsiblity to keep them safe from children and children safe from them. I'm being a grown up and taking grown up responsiblities.
So actually you aren't suggesting that dogs should never be around kids. Just your own dogs as they are not socialized with children. That is reasonable to me.

And yes, a dog bites a child or grown up for that matter, it is the fault of the owner. It's called....Responsibility.

It may be highly illogical to you, because it is putting the responsibility of my dog's actions on me. Which is totally logical to me.
Sure, I will buy that it's the fault of the owner, for allowing the situation to occur at least. And/or whoever previous to the owner caused the dog to be aggressive, if through abuse or mistreatment.

But, it's not the fault of the next person who is at risk of being bitten. They should not suffer for an owner's mistake. So you either contain, re-train, or get rid of a dog if its aggression cannot be resolved. That IS taking responsibility.
 
#68 ·
And yes, a dog bites a child or grown up for that matter, it is the fault of the owner. It's called....Responsibility.

It may be highly illogical to you, because it is putting the responsibility of my dog's actions on me. Which is totally logical to me.
Dogs just are. They cannot take responsibility for themselves, which is why they are dogs :)
Your attitude is perfect and one I love to see in our potential adopters.
Dogs are capable of no morals or decision making and when they are allowed to...or worse, expected to...make responsible judgement calls, this is when disaster strikes.
 
#77 ·
I really don't expect kids to be watching the dog and the interaction the way a responsible adult would. They may not be lying. But they also may not have registered what actually happened. The dog bit Timmy on the leg. They might not have noticed that the dog was sleeping and Timmy ran over the dog and landed on the dog's leg.

The dog bit Timmy's hand, they may not bother to say that Timmy had a stick and was playing with the dog, teasing, pretending to throw, and the dog connected.

The dog bit Timmy's face. My dad was about seven and he was playing with a German Shepherd Dog. This incident kind of prejudiced him against the breed for a long time, but he agrees that it wasn't the dog's fault. He was playing with a long stick. Throwing it, etc. And the dog was bringing it back, and going for it. Well Dad put the stick behind his back. And the top of the stick showed above my dad's head. The dog leaped and got my dad's face in his jaws. He stopped immediately, but it was still scary and painful.

I guess I would not necessarily trust kids to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, when that truth might mean life or death to a critter, and the kid might not be lying, just not aware of the total situation.
 
#81 ·
I guess I would not necessarily trust kids to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, when that truth might mean life or death to a critter, and the kid might not be lying, just not aware of the total situation.
If kids think they are in trouble, they'll withhold the truth or stretch it or whatever, but it's very typical of kids.
Then, as you say, too, kids may miss all the warning signals. Heck, average adults can't get them right half the time :crazy:
 
#83 ·
Philosophy really has no place in an argument about aggression/biting in dogs.
Because you can philosophize all day long, but a dog will still get euthanized for biting a child, or kicked out of it's house.
In other words...what's that got to do with the price of tea in China...?
 
#85 ·
She's "alerting" but has no capability to "back it up".
If she alerted to a person breaking in your home, what would she do, or be able to do, if that person came on in waving a machine gun?
She'd get the crap scared out of her and likely run and hide under your bed. She'd perhaps be traumatized for life, if you or she was injured in the process.

Your job right now is to be non-chalant about it and don't feed into the barking and carrying on. Don't praise her for it, but go about your day as usual.
 
#87 ·
I don't really know what prompted this thread but I actually agree with the OP. I personally am not willing to own or work with fear aggressive animals. I have no doubt that they can and do make fine pets in the right homes with the right training but that is something that I either cannot or am not willing to provide. There are too many risk factors considering where and how I live and how my dogs are part of my lifestyle. Owning a truly fear aggressive dog is not fair for me or the dog.
 
#88 ·
Ok coming in as a trainer here who has to rehabilitate these "fear aggressive" dogs that live secretly in society.
Humans have very unrealistic expectations about their dogs. They expect the dog to be MANHANDLED to a point where I as a human would punch, blow up, yell at and get defensive.
Yet an animal, who doesn't completely understand our language, our intentions, and certainly shouldn't be expected to have the patience a human does, is expected to lay back and let it happen?

I don't think so!

I get calls all the time "my dog bit our child please come evaluate our dog and rehab it". When you sit back, hold back your opinions, to an extent act like you are on the humans side, you get a REALLLY good picture of whats going on in that house. People are usually flabbergasted when I first begin talking, then they hear me out and realize they DO in fact have completely unrealistic ideas of what a dog should act like in a home.

I see videos all the time on youtube, funniest home videos, and in person at my clients homes, of dogs putting up with ridiculous treatment. The parents think its "cute" or adorable and take photos and videos.
The fact of the matter is, Who in their RIGHT MIND puts their child in a situation that sets both the CHILD and the DOG up for FAILURE?!

what part of letting a child rip a dogs ear around, shove things in the dogs ears and eyes, steal the dogs valuables, riding the dog, or pulling the dogs hair or tail, seems like a GOOD idea?

What part of "leaving a child and dog alone unsupervised" sounds like a good idea?!

I deal with this EVERY day in my job.

You can bet your butt I point out to those parents the VERY real danger they are putting their children in. They don't think its so funny anymore when they find out how very real this could be.

All that being said. I will say this. I have not, and don't have the time to read through all of these responses.
A dog has thresholds (obviously) and each individual dog varies (obviously). Seeing a stick waved around near a pack member, or themselves is a very real threat to a dog. Even a dog who has NEVER been abused will react in a negative manner to this.

My 3 month old puppy saw me with a stick when I was playing with it slapping it on the ground. My puppy who has never been abused alert barked on me and considered it a threat. Raising something over the top of a dog is a very real reason to get defensive.
If someone you didn't know raised a stick like object over your head or swiftly moved it past your face, as a HUMAN BEING you would still flinch, move away, even warn the person not to do that again.

A dog biting someone for raising a stick or swinging it near its head is a VERY fair reason to bite. Had the dog MAULED the person and tried to maim and kill, yes that is TOO much and the dog is probably unstable. But the ORIGINAL reason for biting is STILL a very legitimate reason.

THINK about it people!

Now I don't intend to offend anyone but if the dog already had fear of men, or any specific type of person, and then the dog was subjected to not only one stimulus that causes stress, but now two with a threatening action, the dog is again even more within its rights to bite out of fear.

It is the owners fault for allowing this circumstance to take place, and its the other persons fault for waving a stick around an unfamiliar dog.

What does this dog need? I would work on some desensitizing and increasing the dogs thresholds. Let the dog observe the type of people that make it uncomfortable in a purely positive and rewarding manner. Should you desensitize the dogs to sticks? I don't think so.
That's like trying to say we should desensitize our children to strangers talking to them on the street and handing them candy.

If this is a German Shepherd dog that did this bite, then its even more ridiculous that the dog was put into this situation. These dogs are not for the faint of heart, are not golden retrievers who love everybody, and they have a very real aggression behind them.
This is why this breed is not for everyone.

This circumstance is something that I consider to be a daily part of being a good dog owner. Don't subject your dog to absolutely ridiculous situations and expect them to handle it better than a human.

They are animals, they have teeth, and they bite. We are a very aggressive species ourselves, and we all know most of us would react in a relatively similar manner.

Be realistic.

Had the dog bitten the person completely unprovoked and out of the blue, then YES there would be a huge issue.

It all depends on the situation.
 
#89 ·
Who in their RIGHT MIND puts their child in a situation that sets both the CHILD and the DOG up for FAILURE?!
ALLLLL the freaking time.
You know, Maris, I see and hear this too - and some of the worst 'defensive' dogs we get came from homes where the kids ran wild and did all the above (pull on, poke, etc.) and even laid on the dogs. Laid on them! Or picked up and dropped, or tossed when the game was over.
Dog gave all sorts of signals off which people ignored, then by the time the dogs got here, they are defensive messes who bite for little to no "provocation".
We've rehabbed and gave them to homes where no kids would be present, ever.
People like those who let their kids maul their dogs are just idiots, overall.
I was at some folks' home doing a/c work when a child came out in the yard, and kicked the small Chi time dog there, for no reason whatsoever.
And these are the dogs we get in rescue all the time.
 
#93 ·
I dislike people who let their kids do these things to dogs, then blame the dog if it reacts. I have had dogs and kids together for the last twenty years and never had a problem. I would have seriously reprimanded my son if he ever tried to do something that would aggravate or hurt a dog. When we were growing up we always had dogs too and my mom made it clear how they were to be treated. With all of that being said, my nieces and nephew play in the yard with the dogs all the time...most of the time I'm in and out making sure everything is okay. I lay on my dogs all the time, mostly because if they are there and I want to lay down I do and they don't move, growl, etc. Its actually quite comfortable having a dog as foot prop:) The picture I attached is of a friends baby that was visiting..she took a liking to my golden and he adored her. After this picture she did lay on him and go to sleep(so did he)...he stayed there and let her sleep...he never moved or showing any signs of being upset..I think he liked it:) The point being that I would prefer to start kids as young as this little girl to teach them how to treat an animal.



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#91 ·
so you would rehome a FA dog to someone else and let them deal with it? that is seriously messed up... no way would i ever rehome a FA dog, the dog either stays with me and is managed or euthanized. no grey area here... if you are that callous to rehome a FA dog and let new owners deal with FA that is beyond wrong.... either man up and manage the dog, or put the dog out of its misery and euth the dog.... if the FA dog you rehome bites someone the new owners can sue you for giving them a FA dog.. its not fair to the new owners or the FA dog......
 
#92 ·
I fully believe many children manhandle dogs and are permitted to do it.

I do leave my kids and dog unsupervised all the time. Not like I am completely gone, but I don't watch their every move. My kids don't manhandle the dog. I think a blanket statement about 'never unsupervised!!!' is very unrealistic for homes with children. But, if your kids dont treat the dog properly, then yes you have to supervise. Or, if the dog is not reliable, you have to supervise.

I dont think it's the end of the world to rehome a FA dog. Obviously you disclose the issues. But as can even be seen on this thread, different people have very different lifestyles and different capacities to deal with FA safely and effectively.
 
#94 ·
I received a PM in response to this thread asking what business I have owning a German Shepherd if I don't think it's acceptable for dogs to bite people. 'Strong fighting instinct' was quoted to me from the breed standard, I was told these dogs are genetically human aggressive, and asked what I will do with my puppy 'when' she begins to display these traits.

I said my puppy will be thoroughly socialized and trained, and that I think it's reasonable to expect her not to bite people. Call me crazy!
 
#96 ·
GSD Breed Standard
Energetic and fun-loving, the breed is very fond of children once a relationship is established. He is a loyal family pet and a good guard dog, the ideal choice for many families. He requires regular exercise and grooming.The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand. The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler; it should not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character. Any of the above deficiencies in character which indicate shyness must be penalized as very serious faults and any dog exhibiting pronounced indications of these must be excused from the ring. It must be possible for the judge to observe the teeth and to determine that both testicles are descended. Any dog that attempts to bite the judge must be disqualified. The ideal dog is a working animal with an incorruptible character combined with body and gait suitable for the arduous work that constitutes its primary purpose.

I would just ignore the PM:)
 
#95 ·
Where do people get these ideas about German Shepherds. Apart from our current dog who does have a medical problem I think they're very gentle, family dogs - or we've just been very lucky. I'd like to think it's because they've all been treated and trained well.

When I met my partner he had an 11 year GSD bitch (Gemma) who doted on him. She had very little contact with children or other animals, apart from the ones she met on walks. Within a year she was living with me, my partner, 3 cats, 2 young dogs and numerous children ranging in age from new born to 12 years. And Gemma loved it all.
________
Sue
 
#97 ·
The SV standard is worded a little differently. There's a few translations online, most of them say this. (below) I've seen some that mention fight drive but can find them at the moment.

The German Shepherd Dog must be, in its essential image, well-balanced, firm in nerves, self-confident, absolutely calm and impartial, and (except in tempting situations) amiable. He must possess courage, willingness to fight, and hardness, in order to be suitable as companion, watchdog, protector, service dog, and guardian.

Willingness to fight isn't the same as being aggressive towards humans. No idea why anyone would send you a PM like that but they're wrong.
 
#99 ·
The one that was quoted to me was: " Furthermore the dog must be courageous, have a strong fighting instinct and possess firm nerves."

Anyway yeah, I would hope they are wrong! This is not an attack breed, wow.
I don't really disagree with the above quote, but I don't know why someone would feel a need to go to PM with that.

Strong fighting instinct in the right scenario, anyway.

Some people do like to take it to PM to avoid getting in trouble posting things publicly. :D

Don't worry abbbbouut it :) Or, do as I do, and when they attack via PM, keep buggin' them back.

Hi 3toys.
 
#102 ·
Haha good strategy! I basically did that, the bugging back, because I was kind of offended.

I don't disagree wiht the description quoted, but I hardly think it means I can expect human aggression from my dog!
"Expect" might be strong, but be ready might be better.

Not to get all serious on you, but it can be a thing with this breed. Just spend time on the Aggression forum and you'll see it.

These dogs are protective and often very territorial. Mine are only half-breeds, but they display these things. It takes work. They do love humans, but at first, when a strange human approaches the yard, they're not wanting to lick their faces off. Not until that person gets inside and the dogs are told all is well. Until then, they're on high alert and will scare people.

As far as the bugging back, I did so because I was called a bunch of names and such. :)
 
#101 ·
I was told these dogs are genetically human aggressive, and asked what I will do with my puppy 'when' she begins to display these traits.
Someone's seriously messed up. They are not "genetically human aggressive" so ignore the comment.
There's a difference between "aloof" and "human aggressive by genetics" :rolleyes:
 
#103 ·
My landlord actually did not want me to get a GSD for that reason. He had GSDs and they were very territorial, apparently.

So I got a 3/4 GSD and told him it's a GSD/Lab cross. Which, it is. :D He is fine with the pup.

But yeah to be honest territoriality kind of freaks me a little. Honestly part of the reason I got the dog was to have a felt sense of security, so in a way it's a good thing. But I definitely dont want territorial aggression beyond alert barking.

We also live in a very shared living space - we have a townhouse, there are only a few other townhouses, and a shared yard. So far the puppy is getting very used to lots of neighbours being in the yard, and another dog as well (they play together a lot which is nice).

I will be doing training and reading my face off, but I definitely expect that she is not going to be biting anyone!!!
 
#104 ·
My landlord actually did not want me to get a GSD for that reason. He had GSDs and they were very territorial, apparently.

So I got a 3/4 GSD and told him it's a GSD/Lab cross. Which, it is. :D He is fine with the pup.

But yeah to be honest territoriality kind of freaks me a little. Honestly part of the reason I got the dog was to have a felt sense of security, so in a way it's a good thing. But I definitely dont want territorial aggression beyond alert barking.

We also live in a very shared living space - we have a townhouse, there are only a few other townhouses, and a shared yard. So far the puppy is getting very used to lots of neighbours being in the yard, and another dog as well (they play together a lot which is nice).

I will be doing training and reading my face off, but I definitely expect that she is not going to be biting anyone!!!
I don't automatically see territorialism as a bad thing. It is only bad when it is not controlled. The dog should be able to be called off. The dog doesn't have to love the person entering, but should be able to calm down and leave them alone. If the person enters the property (whether yard or home) and the dog continues to show any aggressive behaviors, that's where I think a person has a problem that'll require more work. From what I've read here, some are able to train/work that out fine. Others must just isolate the dog.

I've been lucky. I don't crate my dogs away with visitors. I don't have a lot of visitors, but the ones I do have are dog savvy types and/or willing to help me with the initial nutball reactions of the boys. That's been a real Godsend.

Time will tell, you'll learn your puppy, but knowing the possibilities just puts you in a better place to address any questionable issues nice and quick. I do believe the key is in addressing things early. You're in the right place in the case things do come up. :)
 
#105 ·
What I've always liked about GSDs, or at least the ones we've owned is that they have discernment.
Maybe we just trained them that way - to not be afraid of people at the door, to welcome them and not bite them. I don't mean they fawn all over the visitors, but they sure don't bark/growl. Why should they? The mail person or UPS guy didn't bring us a bomb or attempt to stab us!

So I've come to know and rely on this breed for home protection, they are a great deterrent, and I'll likely always have one here at our home.

But they do need to be raised or trained to accept visitors politely and without aggression.
That can be taught...and if your dog isn't able to be taught, at least be managed.
 
#106 ·
At what age do you think the level of discernment will remain the same(or start to give an idea what the level of their discernment is or will be)?
 
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