Pom to Shepherd and back

[CMeredith]

Sounds reasonable, and maybe I've just been lucky, but I've never had issues like this.

[shepherdmom]

Originally Posted by CMeredith

Hmmm...Not really sure that's based on any known behavioral science. I've never heard any trainer advocate for allowing aggressive behavior to set the pecking order in the house. I've occassionally allowed a bouncy puppy to get a little lesson from a cat, but I'm not worried about the cat becoming regularly aggressive and dominant.

What I'm saying is you have to back the old dog, the one that was there first. The puppy is a puppy and just learning. If you have done your job right the older dog no matter what the breed will know house rules. Do not let the puppy bully the older dog. I would think that if you step in too often that could create problems. I'm not advocating allowing aggressive behavior to set the pecking order but you can't expect the pom to just allow the bratty newcomer access to what was once exclusively her house, her toys and her family.

[Smoktya]

I have had some bad experience with this. My mother-in-laws GSD came along after their miniature poodle (3years at the time). The same thing happened you are talking about. The mini-poodle would resource guard almost anything and one day when the GSD was all grown up, the mini-poodle went too far and let's just say it didn't end well. Believe me when i say this, my in-laws put up no sort of boundaries and this obviously didn't help the outcome, since they thought it was cute that the mini-poodle was bossing around the GSD. I tried to intervene a few times and explain to them how bad this could possibly get, but it went in one ear and out the other. Do all you can do now to stop this behavior before it ends up with a lot of negativity.

[CMeredith]

Originally Posted by shepherdmom

What I'm saying is you have to back the old dog, the one that was there first. The puppy is a puppy and just learning. If you have done your job right the older dog no matter what the breed will know house rules. Do not let the puppy bully the older dog. I would think that if you step in too often that could create problems. I'm not advocating allowing aggressive behavior to set the pecking order but you can't expect the pom to just allow the bratty newcomer access to what was once exclusively her house, her toys and her family.

I understand what you're saying but I just have a different view. I tend to place an expectation on the older dog to be the grown up Puppies are....puppies! I expect my older dog to show some restraint (because I've trained her that way) and to trust that I'm not going to let the puppy annoy her to the point that SHE has to put a stop to it. That's what I'm there for. But as dogs get older they should understand that aggression and dominance don't have any place in the family. That said, there IS sometimes some retaliatory behavior when one of the dogs has had enough. The bully gets the message but I still correct the dog that snapped. It becomes a learning point for both dogs.

As for the "bratty newcomer" getting access to everything that was once the older dog's...that's an absolutely valid concern. But there are other ways to address that other than letting the older dog smack the newcomer around. When you bring a new baby into the house, it's natural for older siblings to be jealous. You address that by creating good feelings associated with the new baby (Look! You're baby sister gave you a present!) You don't let the toddler push the baby in order to teach it to stay away from its toys.

[shepherdmom]

Originally Posted by CMeredith

I understand what you're saying but I just have a different view. I tend to place an expectation on the older dog to be the grown up Puppies are....puppies! I expect my older dog to show some restraint (because I've trained her that way) and to trust that I'm not going to let the puppy annoy her to the point that SHE has to put a stop to it.

Actually I think I understand what you are saying. I expect the older dog to show some restraint as well. But puppies being puppies I don't expect the older dog to have to put up with everything and I'm not always going to see 24/7. At some point I'm going to have to trust my older dog to do the right thing.

That's what I'm there for. But as dogs get older they should understand that aggression and dominance don't have any place in the family. That said, there IS sometimes some retaliatory behavior when one of the dogs has had enough. The bully gets the message but I still correct the dog that snapped. It becomes a learning point for both dogs.

When my 3 year old shepherd had had enough of the older dog it wasn't a snap, bite situation. He just gradually started to realize more and more that she wasn't always the boss. They were outside playing and I just happened to be outside watering the lawn. She tried to push him out of the way and he stood his ground give her a low warning growl and put his head over hers. She rolled. As I said I got lucky. It could have been bad had she decided to challange him.

As for the "bratty newcomer" getting access to everything that was once the older dog's...that's an absolutely valid concern. But there are other ways to address that other than letting the older dog smack the newcomer around. When you bring a new baby into the house, it's natural for older siblings to be jealous. You address that by creating good feelings associated with the new baby (Look! You're baby sister gave you a present!) You don't let the toddler push the baby in order to teach it to stay away from its toys.

I guess it depends on the situation. I never felt my older dogs behavior was overly agressive or out of line. She just wasn't going to put up with two big rambunctious puppies being the boss. She did what any good doggie mommy would have. She low growl or wack them with a paw if they got out of line. Thew would roll and behave for a little bit and then would be back up playing again. I saw no reason to stop her from doing what came natural to all of them. I was still the boss over all. She just took over doggie mom duties and was great at it. As I said from the beginning I'm not sure this would have worked had she only been 10 lbs instead of 35. I've always also tried to keep things even.. If I had a female I'd bring in a male, if I had a male I'd bring in a female so there was a lesser chance of conflict that way.

[Holmeshx2]

Originally Posted by shepherdmom

I guess it depends on the situation. I never felt my older dogs behavior was overly agressive or out of line. She just wasn't going to put up with two big rambunctious puppies being the boss. She did what any good doggie mommy would have. She low growl or wack them with a paw if they got out of line. Thew would roll and behave for a little bit and then would be back up playing again. I saw no reason to stop her from doing what came natural to all of them. I was still the boss over all. She just took over doggie mom duties and was great at it. As I said from the beginning I'm not sure this would have worked had she only been 10 lbs instead of 35. I've always also tried to keep things even.. If I had a female I'd bring in a male, if I had a male I'd bring in a female so there was a lesser chance of conflict that way.

I actually agree with all of this.. (I know shocking right? ) Just one tiny thing.. the part about her not letting the puppies be boss I'm not sure its the puppies trying to be boss as much as just puppies being puppies and as we all know they can get rather annoying as young pups and get on older dogs nerves kind of quick. As far as an older dog being dominant/aggressive to a pup I think you're setting yourself up for failure (you as a general term not specifically YOU) Trying to keep the bothersome puppy from annoying the heck out of the older dogs should be the duty of the owner however an older dog doing a little "training" to the youngster I think is perfectly acceptable so long as the older dog doesn't over do it. Right now my girl is not allowed to "correct" the puppy as far as an actual correction goes however when the pup has a shoe that I didn't see and Jinx goes and takes it from her and brings it to me I allow it. This pup is easy however in the past when i've had young pups going nuts and the older ones would do a growl or "snapped AT" but didn't touch I would allow that as well within reason. However letting the older dog do the whole "everything in the house is mine, toys are mine, treats are mine, bones are mine etc.. I do not allow AT ALL. I get the older dog was there first however they are required to share.. puppy is not allowed to take it from older dog and older dog may not take it from younger dog.. and older dog may not prevent puppy from taking something that was on the floor with no one around it either. When I posted I wasn't referring to allowing the older dog "mother" them so much as when you said:

Originally Posted by shepherdmom

Whenever we brought a puppy into the house she took dominate and rolled them right away when they were pups and I let her. She was the senior dog and had every right to be boss.

This sounds like you brought the pup in set it down and she just rushed them and pinned them to show them "whos boss" from the get go.. not that they were annoying the heck out of her and she did it as a correction. One is an adult having enough of the puppy antics and the other is just being a bully.

[shepherdmom]

Originally Posted by Holmeshx2

I actually agree with all of this.. (I know shocking right? ) Just one tiny thing.. the part about her not letting the puppies be boss I'm not sure its the puppies trying to be boss as much as just puppies being puppies and as we all know they can get rather annoying as young pups and get on older dogs nerves kind of quick. As far as an older dog being dominant/aggressive to a pup I think you're setting yourself up for failure (you as a general term not specifically YOU) Trying to keep the bothersome puppy from annoying the heck out of the older dogs should be the duty of the owner however an older dog doing a little "training" to the youngster I think is perfectly acceptable so long as the older dog doesn't over do it. Right now my girl is not allowed to "correct" the puppy as far as an actual correction goes however when the pup has a shoe that I didn't see and Jinx goes and takes it from her and brings it to me I allow it.

It is wierd agreeing but this is actually what I was talking about. The older dog knows the rules, don't chew on shoes, don't eat the furniture and either corrects or tatles on the puppy. Xena loved to tattle on them she would come tell me anytime they were into stuff they were not supposed to be.

This pup is easy however in the past when i've had young pups going nuts and the older ones would do a growl or "snapped AT" but didn't touch I would allow that as well within reason. However letting the older dog do the whole "everything in the house is mine, toys are mine, treats are mine, bones are mine etc.. I do not allow AT ALL. I get the older dog was there first however they are required to share.. puppy is not allowed to take it from older dog and older dog may not take it from younger dog.. and older dog may not prevent puppy from taking something that was on the floor with no one around it either. When I posted I wasn't referring to allowing the older dog "mother" them so much as when you said:

This sounds like you brought the pup in set it down and she just rushed them and pinned them to show them "whos boss" from the get go.. not that they were annoying the heck out of her and she did it as a correction. One is an adult having enough of the puppy antics and the other is just being a bully.

We just don't communicate very well, I think. I would never bring a puppy in and set it down and let an older dog go at it. I'm talking about once the puppy and the older dog are used to each other. Unless you want to be babysitter 24/7 at some point (when it is safe) the dogs are going to have to work it out. If you (general you) get uptight or always have to be the one to correct them both then there are going to be problems. I don't want to be constantly rotating crates and babysitting dogs. I've done that when my dad passed away and mom and her cat moved in. It's not fun to always have to worry if someone will get hurt and with that cat I was never certain if the dogs would win or if it would.

[Holmeshx2]

Originally Posted by shepherdmom

We just don't communicate very well, I think. I would never bring a puppy in and set it down and let an older dog go at it. I'm talking about once the puppy and the older dog are used to each other. Unless you want to be babysitter 24/7 at some point (when it is safe) the dogs are going to have to work it out. If you (general you) get uptight or always have to be the one to correct them both then there are going to be problems. I don't want to be constantly rotating crates and babysitting dogs. I've done that when my dad passed away and mom and her cat moved in. It's not fun to always have to worry if someone will get hurt and with that cat I was never certain if the dogs would win or if it would.

Very true it can be a pain and the constant watching isn't the same with aggressiveness as it is with being a referee because after they learn the rules then its a matter of just making sure they play fair and stepping in when one decides to play dirty or things just get too rough.

I'm still not sure I would ever leave a 10 lb dog out alone with a full grown GSD just too many risks involved maybe for a bit while you are outside or whatever but not while your at work or something.. it only takes once with that size difference.

[gewaltiger Sturm]

Thanks for all the replies. I do want to make 1 thing clear. The Pom and puppy are NEVER left alone unsupervised. The puppy has an ex-pen in the kitchen and a crate in the bed room. I would say 90% of the time the puppy is in one of them. He goes in his crate when we go to bed and pretty much stays in his ex-pen the rest of the time. He is let out for training. Well he thinks its just him getting hand fed one bite at a time so I dont tell him any different. He is also let out of his pen when I have a chance to get in the floor and play with him. There are times that he is aloud out just to hang. NOW. the Pom will accualy play with him sometimes and other times its like the devil comes out. The Pom will lay beside the crate or pen when the puppy is in it. I dont let the puppy get to rough. If I see it happening I will step in. The Pom will also jump in the pen or crate and steal him a bone. The puppy doesnt even pay attention because we are his focus. The Pom does gaurd his bone and toys though. After reading some of the post, I will now take the item and put it away. My guess is I have a teenage Pom that will just need to get used to there being another brother in the house. The Pom does tolarate the puppy. Just seems like sometime he wants to flex his little bitty muscle.
Tuesday of this week I will be installing a nice privacy fence around the back yard so it will take some of the pressure off all of use. Plus once the weather gets a tad warmer we will have plenty of beach time to run off all that energy and some swim time in the lake beside the house.

[shepherdmom]

Originally Posted by Holmeshx2

Very true it can be a pain and the constant watching isn't the same with aggressiveness as it is with being a referee because after they learn the rules then its a matter of just making sure they play fair and stepping in when one decides to play dirty or things just get too rough.

I'm still not sure I would ever leave a 10 lb dog out alone with a full grown GSD just too many risks involved maybe for a bit while you are outside or whatever but not while your at work or something.. it only takes once with that size difference.

It really would depend on the dogs involved. Our first GSD was so good we could leave her home with the cats and she was fine but she was raised with them. The would curl up on her and cuddle together all the time. Our other shepherds not so much. I think Buddy might be ok. He ignores the neighbor cat but if it was in his house.... ummm not sure, so I wouldn't put him in that situation.