I'm so angry with Grom right now. My kids usually behave crazy with him like the ordinary 8 and 9 year olds would (of course I teach my kids to respect the pup and mind the boundaries) and Grom was very good with them, he just walked away when kids were too much. They play tug with him. Would pet him and hang around him, while he was chewing his bully stick, and he was just fine with it.
He didn't have any bully sticks for some time and to be honest I didn't exercise him enough this week, so he was bored. I brought him a bully stick tonight and he was very eager to have it. He laid down on my command and I let him have it, and when I reached to pet him, he growled. It was an agressive growl with his lip curled, that was the first time he growled like that. He then growled at my kids and when my son came closer, he lunged with a growl at him. I managed to grab him, I don't know if it could be a bite, if I hadn't. Yelled at him and put him in his crate.
I practice NILIF with him, took him to puppy classes and did basic obidience, which we stopped doing lately and started with Schutzhund. He is our very first dog and right now I feel like I cannot trust him anymore.
Sorry, this is long, but I need your input on what to do now. I'll put Sch training on hold for now and will work on obidience with a trainer and involve my kids into that too. Right now I don't feel safe when he is around kids, I don't know what to expect from him and what else can provoke him to behave like that.
Agree, the dominance and lack of confidence bothered me as well.
It is important too, to know what you are dealing with in regards to confidence/lack of, because it should make a difference in your approach. If you lose your mind and physically punish/harshly correct a confident dog, the dog should recover without a problem and it may even modify behavior somewhat. If you do the same to a dog lacking in confidence, it can do serious damage, as it will shatter what trust the dog desperately requires from its leader.
I wish people would stop going to town with all the dominance thought. I think it does more harm than good.
Good post.
Your Sch trainer is bandying about "dominance" so he has something to say. After all, he's the trainer!
Please be careful with this situation and this dog. It doesn't sound like dominance to me, as much as simple resource guarding, back to the beginning of the thread, dogs are hardwired to be resource guarders.
Also, if he has a lack of confidence you need to work on that before continuing with Sch training. Not all dogs are cut out to be Sch dogs. If your dog has confidence and temperament issues, I doubt Sch is for him, but then again I am no expert.
I've heard that SchH can help build confidence in dogs. So can agility and obedience. Basically any training that is consistent and positively reinforced can.
Have you talked to your breeder, or maybe had a good breeder on here look at his pedigree to see if there is anything in there that might indicate genetic sharpness or weak nerves?
We've started Sch just recently, had only 4-5 sessions, he has no confidence issues during training, he is not afraid of anything and goes right into it. So the trainer sees a very confident and strong dog and judgement of it to be dominant might be spot on, it was stated more as a hormonal and due to his age and lack of respect. I'm thinking of putting Sch training on hold, the protection part at least, and focus more on his obidience.
Shepherdmom, your opinion, as well as everybody else's, is welcome and very appreciated. The more opinions I get, the more knowledge I have on how to deal with it.
He is fine with corrections, actually I had to get harder corrections lately to get his attention, he has no problems with it. Just some situations when he bolts from some people (I walked him yesterday and he saw road workers sitting down and discussing smth, he got closer to the ground and clearly wanted to get past them as quickly as possible. I had to walk him several times past workers and ask him to sit nearby, he obeyed, but was nervous). He was afraid of the rustling branches with leaves (he had a bad episode with a branch as a pup), but we worked on it and he got through it. Still walks very fast by on ornament that looks like a branch, but much better than before. And some other episodes when he freaked out, but he seems to recover. Again, it could be normal, just a phase but after that snappy incident I started to look at that at different angle.
definitely should be first stop for any of this (including the fear reactions) because they not only can generally explain why and what to do about it (including whether or not to continue the training or take a break or if that trainer is the best for that dog) all the issues could be very valuable information to them on a specific dog combination in their breeding. I can't tell you how valuable it is having my breeder and all of her knowledge as a resource when I'm not sure about something or just want to double check if I'm doing something right. Most of the times my very first call or email on stuff sometimes tiny little thing I come here first just because I don't want to "bug" her but most things definitely go through her first.
Definitely looks like a nice working pedigree, but not dogs that I've seen a whole lot of... would be interesting to get opinions on that (though those topics always open up a whole NOTHER can of worms, "you have the dog, you need to work on it and not focus on the pedigree" type of thing..).
8 months old is a very normal time to start another fear period. He's growing up, and now is the time to step up training and being consistent. When I say step up, I don't mean physically but mentally... time to make his little brain work
Thanks for the suggestion, I'll do that. Will be interesting to hear what experts think. And I'll talk to the breeder to get her opinion on Grom's behavior.
Fear period makes sense, I definitely need to up on training with him.
Received a package from BestBullySticks yesterday with goodies, Grom got his first knuckle bone, he wasn't guarding it in any way, was wagging his tail and happy whenever anybody approached. He had diarrhea and puked pieces of bones at night though.
Try elk antlers instead of bully sticks, they are easy to digest because dog doesn't ingest much in a chew session
I personally don' think your trainer is seeing your dog correctly. You say he's confident/dominant, yet slinks past unfamiliar things to get by quickly? That is not a confident dog in my opinion.
Maybe consistency and lack of discipline lately and a bratty butthead teenage working GSD that is checking the boundaries on top of that is what escalated that situation. I've contacted our Sch trainer who thinks it's pure dominance and hormones issue.
Another problem is that it seems that Grom is not as confident as GSD pup should be, there were situations when his reaction was not very adequate and I'm not sure whether it's just a phase or a temperament issue
Just some situations when he bolts from some people (I walked him yesterday and he saw road workers sitting down and discussing smth, he got closer to the ground and clearly wanted to get past them as quickly as possible. I had to walk him several times past workers and ask him to sit nearby, he obeyed, but was nervous). He was afraid of the rustling branches with leaves (he had a bad episode with a branch as a pup), but we worked on it and he got through it. Still walks very fast by on ornament that looks like a branch, but much better than before. And some other episodes when he freaked out, but he seems to recover
Seems or does, what does he do to 'recover'?
I think it is a great idea to stop with any protection work, and work on obedience, tracking and confidence building/balanced so he knows you are his leader.
Is he biddable, pack driven? Or more independent/on his own type dog?
Yes, he was definitely reading as today he tried to do an exchange game with me. He brought me his favorite ball and after dropping it in my lap looked very meaningfully at a peace of prosciutto in my hands ))
Was Grom a singleton pup?
I saw the progeny from his dam and he's the only one listed on the pedigree. If so, this may play into some of his shenanigans.
He bolts at first but then goes to investigate and sniff around, with my encouragement, I make sure we pass the object several times to see if he still reacts, the only thing I see he still reacts to is this stupid ornament that looks and sounds like a branch (he was chased by big mean branch stuck in his long line when he was a young pup, he was very scared by that)
Is he biddable, pack driven? Or more independent/on his own type dog?
He was in his crate and I reached to praise him for having a bully stick in crate (as usually he is in the middle of room with it I didn't like that and was teaching him to eat it in his crate). That's when he growled.
So he's in a crate, can't back away because there is a wall behind him, a wall to the right and the left. The only opening is the door-way of the crate. YOU LEAN INTO THAT SPACE an he feels that you are threatening his resource.
Tell me, if you have a delicious desert and your husband or one of your kids would make a gesture that you mistake over them stealing your desert, would you sit there quietly or say "HEY! That is mine, go get your own!"
And how would you like it if somebody came, every time you have food or something delicious and would take that away. Pet you on the head and when you had enough and got upset, that person tells you to do the dishes before you get your dinner.
While I agree with you, Mrs. K. I also agree with Codmaster. The dog shouldn't feel the need to resource guard against their family. What if he had something that was poisonous and instead of just reaching in to pet him, they were reaching in to save his life.
So, while I think the short term solution is don't reach into his cage which we've all beaten to death in this thread, he also needs some behavior modification to permanently fix this issue.
In the words of Ducky from "land before time"... "yup, yup, yuuuup" lol It is definitely 2 fold don't can not resource guard you just can't have dogs running around guarding stuff and going after humans HOWEVER at some point you also have to learn to just leave them alone because while they should never growl at you they also should have to always endure being messed with.. just like us they want their downtime too. Also crate is a safe place he chose to go into his safe place with it for a reason. A simple "good boy good crate" would have been sufficient in this situation not the need to reach in the crate over the head over the treat in order to pet (assuming he was fully in crate and facing outwards) then of course the reaction was a bit over kill as well. However no one came out of the womb knowing to train dogs we have all made mistakes its just a matter of learning from them and moving on (I'm positive the dog no longer cares about what happened from any angle lol)
Mrs. K, Yeah, I should apologize before my pup for invading his privacy. How dare I reach into his space! And back off as soon as I upset him so that he can do it again.
codmaster Absolutely NOT! Growling at any family member is NEVER acceptable! (other than extreme pain if course)!
Mrs. K, Yeah, I should apologize before my pup for invading his privacy. How dare I reach into his space! And back off as soon as I upset him so that he can do it again.
Your dog growled at you because you leaned into the crate. There was no backing out for the dog. A dog feels threatened when he's backed into a corner. Now add the highly valuable resource. You back him into a corner, threaten to take that resource away, he gives you a warning and says: Stop!
A growl is a warning! Some dogs don't give warnings, they go right at you.
You know what he does, now you can work with it.
However, teach your kids to let the dog alone when he's in a crate with his resource. Teach them to not pester him, to not take anything away from him, it's HIS space. His safe haven and he needs that. The crate is his place and that shouldn't be messed with. It's his retreat.
We learned to not mess with the dogs when we were five or six years old and we understood the concept so eight and nine year olds are capable of understanding that too and the dog is still a puppy. He is not mentally matured yet. He does need a break from the kids, and it is your job to ensure that he gets his break when he's in the crate.
I am not saying to back away whenever the dog is growling. I'm saying to work at the issue but at the same time respect the dogs need of a break from the crazyness of young kids.
K - you raise your dogs the way you want and i will raise mine the way I want. But please don't try to tell the OP that they should just accept their own dog threatening to bite her and her kids. No owner should ever put up with this nonsense from their family pet - it is not necessary as it can be trained out of a dog very quickly with a variety of methods.
And with the pet mentality... I am really not surprised at the many bite accidents out there. Seriously... and an American Teenager is not that different from a German Teenager. Eight and Nine years old are NOT teenagers anyways.
Simply because there are impossible things expected from a dog....treat them like dogs, NOT like humans.
And with the pet mentality... I am really not surprised at the many bite accidents out there. Seriously... and an American Teenager is not that different from a German Teenager. Eight and Nine years old are NOT teenagers anyways.
Simply because there are impossible things expected from a dog....treat them like dogs, NOT like humans.
You are absolutely correct, as I know that I certainly expect my dogs to do impossible things like not biting family members and kids when they try to pet him (even if he has a Bully Stick in his mouth)! That must be very difficult for your dogs, from what you say.
I guess my 90+lb male unaltered ScH in-training male GSD must be terribly abused as I take stuff out of his mouth all the time, and even have the chutzpah to grab him and hug him when he has his nose buried in his food bowl. And believe me - he does react (that darn dog just starts wagging his tail like crazy and licking my face whenever he can reach it!). So I guess that one could say that he does react when I do something to him when he has a "High value" resource.
I do think that his reaction is a LOT better than the poor OP with her dog growling.
Hang in there, OP, as you CAN train your dog NOT to react aggressively when you or your family tries to pet him when he has a good resource.
So codmaster, what would you do, please advise the OP instead of commenting on what you wouldn't do. Actually give some advice???
Not many GSDs will act so submissive like yours, and and when they are pups will test instead. What would you do if your dog growled at you when you entered the crate to mess with the bullystick?
Growls don't scare me, they are the dogs way of communicating!!
So codmaster, what would you do, please advise the OP instead of commenting on what you wouldn't do. Actually give some advice??? Sure. See below!
Not many GSDs will act so submissive like yours, and and when they are pups will test instead. What would you do if your dog growled at you when you entered the crate to mess with the bullystick? I would use the dogs scruff if he were my dog! Of course some pups will test their owners as they start to mature, normal and to be expected BUT you cvannot let them think that they won (by backing off if they growl at you - if you do then you have just given them a lesson on how tough they are as they made you back off and they were able to keep their "High Value" object. Nice lesson to teach a maturing puppy, isn't it?
Growls don't scare me, they are the dogs way of communicating!!
I would do exactly what I DID do when I had a 9mo male GSD from imported parents growl at me when i also reached down to take a real bone (High Value?) away from him as we were going out in the car. I grabbed him by the scruff of the neck, shook him a couple of times and growled "NO" to him.
OTOH, I would not advise anyone to try this approach unless they were sure of themselves and their relationship with their dog and their ability to handle him/her. Could prove to be a risky thing BUT no worse than living with a dog who did not respect their owner and family at all.
And I would not think it would be a good idea to diagnosis and recommend exactly what someone else should do without seeing the dog and person in action in person. It is very hard for me to diagnose a dog over the Internet, unlike some folks who can do it very easily evidently.
BTW, onyx, if you think my dog is submissive, it is a pity that you can't come and meet him. I really do think that you might change your mind. His breeder calls him a "Bully", and that he thinks he is in charge of the entire group of GSD's that meet every week for training, and his behaviorist says that he is "the most self confident dog that she has ever seen in all her years of practice".
So you must be really great with dogs to be able to contradict all these folks without ever even seeing the dog. A great Internet dog expert.
Speaking of growls - what do you think the next step for a dog generally is after a growl? They should scare you, or at least make you stop and think about what the dog might do next. At least in person I would think so.
I've been curious about that too.
Or why the breeder let the dog go without some explanations of typical behavior to expect from the dog as it matured.
ETC.
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