8 month old snapped at my child

[chelle]

I am such a glutton for punishment, I'm gonna step into this issue again.

Dear Dog:

I've tried to raise you to trust me because I like to think I'm fair. You'll have to do something to get *whatever*, and then it is yours until it is not yours anymore or it is gone. I might come up and touch you, play with your ears, kiss you. I might reach down and hold it for you to give you a better grip. I might say OH LOOK and give you somethin' better. Or I might not. It might be time for me to remove it, because it is time for all the dogs to come into the room, and we're not risking an issue. Sure, you'll have a good amount of chew time. No, I won't bug you endlessly while you're happily chewing. I might walk by and pat your cute butt and say GOOD DOG so you get used to being touched while you have something great. BUT, when I need it back -- not because I want to torment - but because I need it back, then I do and I will take it and you won't fuss at me.

Love, Mom.

[Holmeshx2]

Originally Posted by codmaster

Just a thought if you use this method, what do you do if the dog doesn't think the exchange thing is worth him/her giving up what he already has in his mouth?

Would you then up your offer and throw in something else, say, a nice piece of cheese and 2 milk bones?

And also, if you had a 2yo child would you use the same "Exchange" method of getting something away from them? And then "negotiate" with the 2yo if he/she also doesn't think what you are offering is worth what he/she already has?

Seems like that could get to be a real problem as the dog/child became more used to "Exchange" and "negotiation". With both parties dealing from a position of power!

But to each his/her own method of dealing with your own dog!

This brings up some FANTASTIC points! I really think all of the methods should be "tricks in the training bag" I believe in well rounded methods because even as wyominggrandma (sorry if I spelled it wrong) pointed out you dont always have something to offer. The key thing is to start out from the time they come home as a young pup. I think constantly taking everything away causes an issue even when its something they can't have because they learn you approaching means ur gonna take it. I think Trading or even just giving something extra is a great thing for them to learn. Some other times taking what they have and giving it right back, teaching the "out" or "drop" command and of course teaching "leave it" are all very important. There is always going to be a time where you just need to take it from them and no there should be no fuss or gulping of the item nor should there be negotiating of a better item however using it in training is a great thing to lay the foundation.

Pup grabs a sock it shouldn't have you give it something it should have and take the sock away. Pup grabs shoe you take shoe give a toy. Later on you grab some treats and teach pup impulse control and "leave it" another time you grab a tug toy play for a few minutes stop remove toy from dogs mouth while saying "out" then "good out give tug back and start playing again. Owner was negligent and dog got something poisonous it shouldn't have had you shove hand down pups throat and take it out and they deal with the fact you didn't trade them for anything that time because it wasn't an appropriate training tactic at that moment. I just don't think that in any training it can be only one way there should always be lots of different methods for well rounded training IMO. I really do not think negotiating is the right term or method. I don't do the trading for higher value however I will trade a non dog item for a dog appropriate item when they are young so they learn I'm not always going to take stuff from them and they learn what they are allowed to have and what they aren't.

[GregK]

I'm talking about training an eight month old German Shepherd here, not a human child. I don't have to worry about a child biting my hand and/or arm, possibly doing some serious and permanent damage.

[GregK]

Originally Posted by codmaster

Just a thought if you use this method, what do you do if the dog doesn't think the exchange thing is worth him/her giving up what he already has in his mouth?

Would you then up your offer and throw in something else, say, a nice piece of cheese and 2 milk bones?

This is training - teaching a dog to give up items on request. After practicing this the dog becomes conditioned to do this without any exchange items necessary.

[wyominggrandma]

I"ve been bit by a few kids.. Hurts like the devil.
I brought kids into it because if you negotiate with a child, they learn to hold out until something better comes along. Just like a dog will do, "hey, I don't like this treat that she is trying to trade this other treat for, so I think I will growl at her until I get something better". Growls and then the person walks off to get something better, however the dog has just decided if it growls the person walks off.
Oh well, guess I will continue to browbeat and dictate how my dogs should live in my home. Must be awful the way I do it, but what the heck, works for me.
Oh yea, Holly is laying on the couch chewing on a bone. I can walk up to her, take the bone away from her and say" get off the couch". She looks at me and gets off the couch go grabs another toy and lays down on the floor. Bad mommy. I took her bone away and didn't give her something else to negotiate with her. I took it.Oh my, she is still wagging her tail at me.

[GregK]

Originally Posted by wyominggrandma

I brought kids into it because if you negotiate with a child, they learn to hold out until something better comes along. Just like a dog will do, "hey, I don't like this treat that she is trying to trade this other treat for, so I think I will growl at her until I get something better". Growls and then the person walks off to get something better, however the dog has just decided if it growls the person walks off.
.

Again,

Originally Posted by GregK

This is training - teaching a dog to give up items on request. After practicing this the dog becomes conditioned to do this without any exchange items necessary.

[codmaster]

Originally Posted by GregK

This is training - teaching a dog to give up items on request. After practicing this the dog becomes conditioned to do this without any exchange items necessary.

So WHAT would you do when the dog refused to give it up in an exchange? I didn't seem to catch your answer.

Would that mean that you would just stop trying to get the original item or would you up the offer? Which?

That is of course before your dog is "Conditioned" of course!


How about just TEACHING your dog who is boss and can just take something away from him because he/she wants to!

I have done so with all of our dogs over the years and have never had a problem with anyof them.

[codmaster]

Originally Posted by wyominggrandma

I"ve been bit by a few kids.. Hurts like the devil.
I brought kids into it because if you negotiate with a child, they learn to hold out until something better comes along. Just like a dog will do, "hey, I don't like this treat that she is trying to trade this other treat for, so I think I will growl at her until I get something better". Growls and then the person walks off to get something better, however the dog has just decided if it growls the person walks off.
Oh well, guess I will continue to browbeat and dictate how my dogs should live in my home. Must be awful the way I do it, but what the heck, works for me.
Oh yea, Holly is laying on the couch chewing on a bone. I can walk up to her, take the bone away from her and say" get off the couch". She looks at me and gets off the couch go grabs another toy and lays down on the floor. Bad mommy. I took her bone away and didn't give her something else to negotiate with her. I took it.Oh my, she is still wagging her tail at me.

Very well said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[GregK]

codmaster, I would use a higher value item, be it food or toy, to get the dog to give up the item he already has.

You can't always 'show a dog who's boss' by just taking something he's guarding away. Some dogs are very serious about their resource guarding and won't hesitate to bite when challenged in this manner.

[msvette2u]

Originally Posted by GSD07

You took the stick away (better to do the exchange like it was suggested earlier), then forced him to do obedience, no bully stick for that, then your daughter came and he had to do obedience and finally got the stick. Then your son approached and, naturally, your dog thought that the stick will be taken away and he would be forced to do obedience for your son, and so he growled. As always, not the dog's fault but the handler's.

I would give him his sticks in the crate so he can enjoy them in peace. Then teach him that your presence near his valuable sticks is even better because he gets something better in addition. Then practice exchange. Also don't entertain the idea that your dog will look up to your kids and obey them, not gonna happen.

Exactly.
Once again people think dogs should think (and reason) like people, instead of dogs.
Good post and good advice.
Dogs aren't thinking "Oh, good, if I do this right, I'll get my wonderful treat back", they are thinking "oh SH*T here we go again and I'm LOSING my treat".
Do the high value trading and once he's secure you're not going to take away the good stuff, leave him alone to eat them in peace.