All these aggression threads.... Genetics vs owner vs lack of training?

chelle · 12-30-2011, 10:24 PM

I can't help but notice just *how many* aggression related threads pop up. Daily. Makes my head spin a bit.!

I'm new to GSD's... actually got "drug in" when my son appeared with his WGSD a few years back. She was never aggressive with me, but I saw some of it appear when she tried to live in the same house with my bitchy Shiba. I saw some of it appear with random people. That's about the extent of it, as I had my own dogs to take care of ... (She and I spent A LOT of time together, mostly hanging out and playing a lot of frisbee, but I didn't take her many places, I didn't take her for training, etc. My own dogs had to take that priority.)

ANYWAY, I see ALL these threads about HA, DA and I think wow! What do you attribute it to? Poor nerves/breeding, lack of training, owner weakness, all of the former? It *seems like* people only come to the forums once the behavior has totally escalated, has become unmanageable and then want a magic pill. I'm glad people do attempt to reach out for help, but seriously, are GSD's JUST THIS AGGRESSIVE OF A BREED????????? ~OR~ are these wonderful GSD's just finding themselves, too often, with too weak of an owner?

Honestly, I'm perplexed. I'm particularly interested in hearing from the highly experienced GSD owners who just could not train their dog out of HA and / or DA -- especially if those dogs came from good, solid nerved dogs.

Again, just perplexed and trying to learn.

BR870 · 12-30-2011, 10:30 PM

IMO genetics is by far the biggest cause of aggression, and is at the root of almost all aggression cases. However, I also checked socialization and handler weakness as IMO those can also be big contributing factors in how severe it is...

DanielleOttoMom · 12-30-2011, 10:33 PM

I think gentics and nevers can be a major factor. However I chosen all the above. All can be contrilbutors to causing aggression in dogs.

BR870 · 12-30-2011, 10:35 PM

BTW, the traits that define a GSD: Aloof, alert, protective, strength and willingness to fight can very easily turn into shy, suspicious, and aggressive if breeders are not vigilant... Aggression is in the very core of the breeder, and a GSD that has no aggression is not a GSD IMO...

**JeanKBBMMMAAN** · 12-30-2011, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR870

BTW, the traits that define a GSD: Aloof, alert, protective, strength and willingness to fight can very easily turn into shy, suspicious, and aggressive if breeders are not vigilant... Aggression is in the very core of the breeder, and a GSD that has no aggression is not a GSD IMO...

I really agree with this. I hope you're right!

onyx'girl · 12-30-2011, 10:37 PM

I chanced it and voted for every choice. I agree, genetics trump everything else, but you need the others to help the dog manage.
There is a recent thread of a handler with a 4 month old pup and he is setting this pup up to be FA with his methods. If the pup is sound in genetics it still may turn out to be a fearful dog that lacks confidence due to his handling/foundation.
I have a FA dog that I wish I knew then what I know now....she may be different at maturity if I'd handled her issues in the right way early on.
But at least now I do know how to manage her.
I don't think handler weakness is always an issue, it could be "over" handling that causes some dogs to become reactive, because that handler has taken away the dogs confidence and ability to decipher situations .

Emoore · 12-30-2011, 11:02 PM

Well, lack of socialization, lack of training, and handler weakness are all tied in together. It's usually the inexperienced owner who fails to adequately socialize, who fails to do enough training, and who is too weak with his/her handling. Come to think of it, it's the inexperienced owner who is most likely to purchase a weak-nerved dog from an unskilled breeder. So they kind of all go together.

onyx'girl · 12-30-2011, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emoore

Well, lack of socialization, lack of training, and handler weakness are all tied in together. It's usually the inexperienced owner who fails to adequately socialize, who fails to do enough training, and who is too weak with his/her handling. Come to think of it, it's the inexperienced owner who is most likely to purchase a weak-nerved dog from an unskilled breeder. So they kind of all go together.

There is that, but also a dog from a shelter or unknown pedigree that has to be managed. Too many dogs are weak nerved and too many un-skilled breeders to support the overflow at the shelters. That said, there are many shelter dogs that are so stable with what they've been dealt, it is amazing! It is genetics that trump everything, I believe.

chelle · 12-30-2011, 11:40 PM

Well, I can't lie, there is something in this feedback for me.

I have a dog with still questionable nerves, as the weaknesses do show here and there. I've socialized pretty extensively. It's been the focus of my life for the past six months, literally.

I am a very confident person, but I lack on training methods/experience with these stronger-willed dogs. It is pretty easy to deal with a dog in your home, quite another story to make that dog maneageable in other settings.

The "other settings" are what I care about most. I don't want a dog I have to crate up because visitors are coming. I don't want a dog that I have to worry about lunging, going nutty or attacking another dog. I want a WELL ROUNDED DOG. I'm literally killing myself to make this so. I've seen some really drastic, impressive improvements. It makes me very happy. It is very rewarding to see the results of hard work.

Maybe I'm fishing for encouragement

that my somewhat weaker nerved dog won't become the crazy, aggressive, biting monster I keep reading other posts about.

I've come to learn you can't train-out the nerves, as they are what they are. I took on this dog with full knowledge that I might get a hot-mess of a dog. I think perhaps he might have been a hot mess without all the work put into him, but as such a novice, I don't want to make that claim. Who knows, maybe he'd be what he is without all that work. Who knows. That's kind of the whole basis for this thread.

shepherdmom · 12-30-2011, 11:45 PM

@chelle.

In my case I'm going to say its my, her handlers fault. We raised our little girl's great uncles and great aunt from puppies. They were all wonderful loving dogs. No agression ever! However, rescuing this one I expected too much too fast and blew it. We just assumed she would immediately love us all and didn't give her time to adjust to all the changes. We are now trying to fix that. I'm not dominate but by the time I got her home she had decided I was her person and she had to protect me from everything. Including my husband and my old boy her one surviving great uncle. I know the lines are good, these are awesome search and rescue dogs. I am a nurturer by heart, the ones the dogs come to for love and cuddles while my husband is the protector. I have to learn how to be her protector so that she doesn't feel the need to protect me.

View Poll Results: What do you blame for dogs with aggression issues?
Lack of socialization	44	53.66%
Lack of training	36	43.90%
Nerves / Genetics	58	70.73%
Handler weakness	40	48.78%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 82. You may not vote on this poll

12-30-2011, 10:24 PM	#1 (permalink)
chelle Knighted Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Des Moines, IA Posts: 2,829	All these aggression threads.... Genetics vs owner vs lack of training? I can't help but notice just how many aggression related threads pop up. Daily. Makes my head spin a bit.! I'm new to GSD's... actually got "drug in" when my son appeared with his WGSD a few years back. She was never aggressive with me, but I saw some of it appear when she tried to live in the same house with my bitchy Shiba. I saw some of it appear with random people. That's about the extent of it, as I had my own dogs to take care of ... (She and I spent A LOT of time together, mostly hanging out and playing a lot of frisbee, but I didn't take her many places, I didn't take her for training, etc. My own dogs had to take that priority.) ANYWAY, I see ALL these threads about HA, DA and I think wow! What do you attribute it to? Poor nerves/breeding, lack of training, owner weakness, all of the former? It seems like people only come to the forums once the behavior has totally escalated, has become unmanageable and then want a magic pill. I'm glad people do attempt to reach out for help, but seriously, are GSD's JUST THIS AGGRESSIVE OF A BREED????????? ~OR~ are these wonderful GSD's just finding themselves, too often, with too weak of an owner? Honestly, I'm perplexed. I'm particularly interested in hearing from the highly experienced GSD owners who just could not train their dog out of HA and / or DA -- especially if those dogs came from good, solid nerved dogs. Again, just perplexed and trying to learn. __________________ Dolly Eskie 6/03 Suri Shiba 10/07 Bailey WGSD/Husky x 5/11 Bailey's brother Tucker (rescue/foster dude) Tiger kitty '96 Information is power

12-30-2011, 10:30 PM	#2 (permalink)
BR870 Master Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 828	IMO genetics is by far the biggest cause of aggression, and is at the root of almost all aggression cases. However, I also checked socialization and handler weakness as IMO those can also be big contributing factors in how severe it is... __________________ Rob Ezra von der Rennbahn Princess Abigail "Abbie" Kai (RIP) Loki (RIP)

12-30-2011, 10:33 PM	#3 (permalink)
DanielleOttoMom Elite Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 1,951	I think gentics and nevers can be a major factor. However I chosen all the above. All can be contrilbutors to causing aggression in dogs. __________________ Otto Blk GSD 02/23/10 Circe Blk Sable GSD 06/22/08 My fur babies!!

12-30-2011, 10:35 PM	#4 (permalink)
BR870 Master Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 828	BTW, the traits that define a GSD: Aloof, alert, protective, strength and willingness to fight can very easily turn into shy, suspicious, and aggressive if breeders are not vigilant... Aggression is in the very core of the breeder, and a GSD that has no aggression is not a GSD IMO... __________________ Rob Ezra von der Rennbahn Princess Abigail "Abbie" Kai (RIP) Loki (RIP)

12-30-2011, 10:37 PM	#6 (permalink)
onyx'girl Crowned Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: SW, MI Posts: 17,596	I chanced it and voted for every choice. I agree, genetics trump everything else, but you need the others to help the dog manage. There is a recent thread of a handler with a 4 month old pup and he is setting this pup up to be FA with his methods. If the pup is sound in genetics it still may turn out to be a fearful dog that lacks confidence due to his handling/foundation. I have a FA dog that I wish I knew then what I know now....she may be different at maturity if I'd handled her issues in the right way early on. But at least now I do know how to manage her. I don't think handler weakness is always an issue, it could be "over" handling that causes some dogs to become reactive, because that handler has taken away the dogs confidence and ability to decipher situations . __________________ Jane~ Kept by Onyx, Kacie and Gideon v Wildhaus aka Karlo

12-30-2011, 11:02 PM	#7 (permalink)
Emoore Crowned Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: North DFW, TX Posts: 9,209	Well, lack of socialization, lack of training, and handler weakness are all tied in together. It's usually the inexperienced owner who fails to adequately socialize, who fails to do enough training, and who is too weak with his/her handling. Come to think of it, it's the inexperienced owner who is most likely to purchase a weak-nerved dog from an unskilled breeder. So they kind of all go together. __________________ Rocky vom Backyard- 10 years young Kopper vom Felssclucht Bach - 17 months At the Bridge: Cash van der Animal Shelter 2006-2010

12-30-2011, 11:40 PM	#9 (permalink)
chelle Knighted Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Des Moines, IA Posts: 2,829	Well, I can't lie, there is something in this feedback for me. I have a dog with still questionable nerves, as the weaknesses do show here and there. I've socialized pretty extensively. It's been the focus of my life for the past six months, literally. I am a very confident person, but I lack on training methods/experience with these stronger-willed dogs. It is pretty easy to deal with a dog in your home, quite another story to make that dog maneageable in other settings. The "other settings" are what I care about most. I don't want a dog I have to crate up because visitors are coming. I don't want a dog that I have to worry about lunging, going nutty or attacking another dog. I want a WELL ROUNDED DOG. I'm literally killing myself to make this so. I've seen some really drastic, impressive improvements. It makes me very happy. It is very rewarding to see the results of hard work. Maybe I'm fishing for encouragement that my somewhat weaker nerved dog won't become the crazy, aggressive, biting monster I keep reading other posts about. I've come to learn you can't train-out the nerves, as they are what they are. I took on this dog with full knowledge that I might get a hot-mess of a dog. I think perhaps he might have been a hot mess without all the work put into him, but as such a novice, I don't want to make that claim. Who knows, maybe he'd be what he is without all that work. Who knows. That's kind of the whole basis for this thread. __________________ Dolly Eskie 6/03 Suri Shiba 10/07 Bailey WGSD/Husky x 5/11 Bailey's brother Tucker (rescue/foster dude) Tiger kitty '96 Information is power

12-30-2011, 11:45 PM	#10 (permalink)
shepherdmom Master Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Northern Nevada Posts: 771	@chelle. In my case I'm going to say its my, her handlers fault. We raised our little girl's great uncles and great aunt from puppies. They were all wonderful loving dogs. No agression ever! However, rescuing this one I expected too much too fast and blew it. We just assumed she would immediately love us all and didn't give her time to adjust to all the changes. We are now trying to fix that. I'm not dominate but by the time I got her home she had decided I was her person and she had to protect me from everything. Including my husband and my old boy her one surviving great uncle. I know the lines are good, these are awesome search and rescue dogs. I am a nurturer by heart, the ones the dogs come to for love and cuddles while my husband is the protector. I have to learn how to be her protector so that she doesn't feel the need to protect me.

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