Alternative View on Dog Aggression/Bites

[Jack's Dad]

For the second time, this thresd was not about any one specific other thread. It was in response to a number of threads over a period of time and a few recent ones.

I'm tired of hearing about how it's everyone else's fault.

If you have a GSD that is known to have been extremely aggressive or has already taken a bite out of somebody or another dog then you have a responsibility to make sure it doesn't happen again.

I don't agree that people who have these dogs have the same right to go anywhere someone else with non aggressive dogs go. Nor do you have an automatic right to take them in public places knowing what they can do.
If you do so anyway and something happens then you deserve to get sued and your dog PTS.

Some are not using common sense. You could legally keep a loaded gun in your house in a closet. Then the neighbor kid is visiting and told to stay out of your room and closet. He/she doesn't and shoots themselves. Explain to the police how it is not your fault because you told them not to go in there. Explain to the neighbors how their (stupid) kid went and shot themselves after you specifically told them not to go there.

Someone will now come on and tell me what a stupid example this is, It happened right here where I live about three years ago.

A reactive aggressive GSD is like a loaded gun. The owners responsibility.

I also am tired of the comparrison to Goldens, or Labs.. A properly bred, trained, socialized GSD is as safe as any other dog.

A poorly bred, trained or socialized one can be an accident waiting to happen. The main difference in dogs is that GSD's, Dobies, Rotties and others can do serious damage to a human or dog.

I've had both Labs and GSD's over the years and had no difficulty with either breed.

[martemchik]

I think the problem is that people with unstable dogs want to have the same kind of fun that the rest of us have. They see the well balanced/mannered dogs going around everywhere and they want their dog to experience that too. I bring my dog everywhere I go, he will look at another dog that is barking his head off at him as if it is playful even when it is clearly aggressive. He is so self-confident that nothing gets to him. He knows he can do damage, but never does because its just not him.

I walked into a pet store one day, and the first customer that saw me and him asked, "does he bite?" I don't know why she had this question, but she did. Why in the world would I bring a dog that bites into a public place like a pet store? Has someone done this before? Maybe, but its those people that ruin the fun for the rest of us by thinking their dogs are stable enough to handle those kinds of places.

This happens all the time, people want to push their dogs into situations where they shouldn't be. There is a guy in our training class with a partially reactive/DA GSD. Although the dog has gotten much better, the guy still wants to push him and do things off leash with him that the rest of us do. Its scary knowing that this dog can just turn and go after one of our dogs at any second, and although he has never done this there is always a chance. I've seen this dog react but it was always on leash and the handler always handled it perfectly, but knowing that he has those issues, its upsetting to see him let him off leash for longer recalls/down/sits.

[Jack's Dad]

Originally Posted by ayoitzrimz

In what way is it ok for someone to disrespect the house rules, agitate a dog (who I understand is a stable, sound dog - maybe I missed the part where he's not?) to the point that the dog has to defend himself, and then have the dog and owner be at fault... Sorry but I just don't understand, maybe I'm missing something...

It is not ok but how difficult is it to throw the bum out or put the dog up.

My dogs are not aggressive but not alll wiggly either. I have a hard time imagining jack biting someone but give certain circumstances I suppose it is possible. For that reason and that some people are not comfortable with dogs or GSD's in particular I would kennel or crate rather than risk a problem.


Laurie: I never said others should not take personal responsibility such as your off leash dogs situations. Wishing it doesn't make it so. If you go enough places with your dogs you will encounter all manner of people not acting the way you would like. If you can find a way to make people act the way you want them to please let us all know how to do that.

In the meantime your aggressive dog is your personal responsibility. I think your swearing at people before they get to you is asking for trouble but if it works for you that's great.

[Whiteshepherds]

Originally Posted by ayoitzrimz

On the same token - how far exactly do we take this "your responsibility to keep guests safe from the dog" thing?

Suppose my roommate invited his friends over, and they all get drunk and gang up on me (physically) while I was minding my own business and my dog protects me and ends up biting one of the "guests", would you suggest I have the dog destroyed or muzzle him?

Suppose my roommate invited his friends over, and they all get drunk and gang up on the dog. they corner him, spray him with water guns, and one of them goes and kicks it. The dog defends himself and bites one of the people. Clearly I'm RESPONSIBLE FOR PROTECTING THE GUESTS AT MY HOUSE and I should have this dog seriously evaluated.[/QUOTE]

Seriously????
If you're spending your life living with people who spend their time getting drunk, physically ganging up on people or tormenting dogs you need to get new friends.

Originally Posted by ayoitzrimz

All I'm saying is - don't always blame the dog and don't get a GSD or another powerful/protective/aloof breed if you wanted a golden or a lab all along

Again, once you KNOW your dog has a bite history and once you realize you have a dog that has to be MANAGED you've left the world of powerful, protective and aloof. Instead you've got fearful, leary and reactive, and it's your job to make sure that there is zero chance of that dog biting someone.

[PaddyD]

Originally Posted by martemchik

I think the problem is that people with unstable dogs want to have the same kind of fun that the rest of us have. They see the well balanced/mannered dogs going around everywhere and they want their dog to experience that too. I bring my dog everywhere I go, he will look at another dog that is barking his head off at him as if it is playful even when it is clearly aggressive. He is so self-confident that nothing gets to him. He knows he can do damage, but never does because its just not him.

I walked into a pet store one day, and the first customer that saw me and him asked, "does he bite?" I don't know why she had this question, but she did. Why in the world would I bring a dog that bites into a public place like a pet store? Has someone done this before? Maybe, but its those people that ruin the fun for the rest of us by thinking their dogs are stable enough to handle those kinds of places.

This happens all the time, people want to push their dogs into situations where they shouldn't be. There is a guy in our training class with a partially reactive/DA GSD. Although the dog has gotten much better, the guy still wants to push him and do things off leash with him that the rest of us do. Its scary knowing that this dog can just turn and go after one of our dogs at any second, and although he has never done this there is always a chance. I've seen this dog react but it was always on leash and the handler always handled it perfectly, but knowing that he has those issues, its upsetting to see him let him off leash for longer recalls/down/sits.

All of the above.
There is a guy who brings his very DA big male GSD to the park (not dog park) where many people go to walk their dogs. Everyone knows him now and goes the other way when they see him coming. He does keep his dog leashed and pulls off to the side when someone passes. However, we have all been wondering when the leash would break ... until it DID and the dog charged me and my female GSD. Fortunately, I faced him down until his owner caught up and grabbed his collar.

[LaRen616]

Originally Posted by Lauri & The Gang

My question is ...

What ever happened to PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY - as in people are responsible for their OWN actions (and the consequences of them)???

Guess it's gone the way of the Dodo bird and Common Sense - they are both now extinct.

[Stevenzachsmom]

Originally Posted by BahCan

I totally agree with Jack's Dad's post on this topic.

Having owned a very dominant aggressive Rottweiler, who had never bitten but absolutely given the oppurtunity would have shredded anybody he could. It was my responsibility to not only protect people, but to protect that dog by not putting him in any kind of position to fail.

When people came over he was put in his crate in another room, it didn't matter who it was or how dog savy they were, it was my responsibilty to protect the guest and the dog. Why risk having him mingle with the people, no matter how many times you ask people to act a certain way around your dog, it only takes that one slip up to end with a bite, so why risk it, if you do, it's your fault if something happens, nobody elses.

He was not taken out in public, he was taken everyday outside the city to my friends acerage, there he could run free and be a dog and be happy, and train and have fun. He did not need to be around people, he did not like being around people so why put him in that position where he will bite, again its the owners responsibility.

It's a lot of stress and a lot work and responsibility to own dogs like this, and I can tell you that as much as I loved that dog and had a great bond with him and miss him everyday, It was like a big weight was lifted off my shoulders when he went to the bridge.

I LOVE this post. It should be repeated over and over and over.

I must be crazy, or stupid - maybe both, but MY dog is MY responsibility. Everything she does is MY responsibility. She is NOT people aggressive. I don't understand the "first bite" vs "next bite". There should never be a first bite. There would have to be some indication that there was a chance of a bite happening. My dog HAS been fallen on, tripped over, had people in her face and space. She is extremely tolerant. This is what I want and need in a GSD. If there was ever an indication my dog "might" bite, I would do everything to make sure that first bite never happened

My dog is DA. I have owned her for 12 of her 14 years. She has never hurt another dog. I did not allow that to happen. While she couldn't go everywhere, she has had a wonderful life. I have managed her for all these years - and that was for DA. There isn't a snowballs chance that I would ever allow my dog the opportunity to hurt a human being. I don't care how stupid the human beings are.

Because......It is my responsibility to keep my dog and others safe.

[wyominggrandma]

Nothing wrong with the type of GSD that is friendly but not overly friendly either. What I was saying is the number of times people say "get a golden or Lab if you want a friendly dogs, GSD should not be that way".. My girl is very friendly. I am glad she is that way. Maybe she doesn't fit the standard as the temperament, but at least I have no worries about her biting someone or attacking another dog. I am glad, but that doesn't make it bad for me to like her, just the same as it doesn't make it bad if you want a GSD that you have to lock up when someone comes over.
Each person deals with their dog their way, and if you want a biting dog, that is your decision, just don't make the rest of us feel like we are not the owners of "true" GSD because they like people.
However, no matter the reasons your dog might bite , the owner is responsible no matter what the circumstances. If the dog bites someone because he looked cross eyed at the dog, or because he walked hunched over, or because the drunk was bugging him, the owner put the dog in contact with the 'bad'person, whether walking on the street, walking at a dog park, walking the dog through a house full of people. It doesn't matter, if you own a dog, mean or friendly, scared or tough, big or little, you OWN the dog and nobody should have to be leary to walk on the street or go into a house invited and fear being bitten by YOUR dog.
You need to keep your dog safe and the public safe is the dog is going to be in contact with humans.

[selzer]

Originally Posted by wyominggrandma

You can own a GSD that is not aggressive and aloof with strangers, just like you can own a Pit Bull that is not aggressive and I have seen Goldens and Labs that are so vicious that they are a danger to everyone.
I know, I know, the standard calls for GSD to be aloof and wary of strangers, does this mean they have to bite them?
I guess my question is this: for all the folks on here who see nothing wrong with a GSD that is aloof to strangers, will bite because of being over reactive, protective, nerotic or whatever label that is put on a dog like this and the suggestions are made to get a trainer, get a behaviorist or whatever help is necessary to take care of this dog, do not euthanize it, what are we supposed to do because our GSD happens to like people and gets along with everyone?? Euthanize them because they do not fit the standard? Euthanize them because if we wanted a friendly dog we should have gotten a lab or golden? I mean come on, maybe some of us don't want our GSD to be nasty biting mean dogs that we have to lock away when people come over. If you want to own a dog like that, that is fine. But, the people on this forum who keep commenting that "you should own a lab or golden if you want a friendly dog, not a GSD" should we take them to the rescue and say" we need to turn this GSD in because he likes people???? Give me a break.
Not all of us want a dog or the responsibility that goes with owning a biting dog, whether a GSD or a Pit or a Boxer or a little ankle biter. So, we are happy to own a GSD that happens to have the genetics to be friendly. On this forum, it seems like that is a sin..........

Yes you CAN own a GSD that likes people, that loves everyone, that loves children, that is bomb proof -- almost. And that is wonderful. It is a testament of your research, your breeder, the lines, the litter order, the upbringing. Gold star to you. And I would LOVE to say that the majority of GSDs are like that, that unless you train them to be wary of strangers, they will go right up with all things wagging.

If you want a dog that IS like that, you might want to consider a different breed. A breed that is not bred to guard sheep from human and animal predators, as well as military, police, and guard work. A breed that has been bred for over a century to retrieve a bird without doing more harm to it is one example of a breed that might make the perfect family pet. However, the popularity of these breeds have led to indiscriminate breeding practices and faulty temperament. But that does not mean that in theory, they would not be a better dog for someone who does not want the liability of having a dog that was bred for their ability to guard and protect.

If you bring Blitz home, and he loves people, and you socialize him well, and take him to classes, and take him around children and dogs and other pets, until he is an excellent citizen, that is awesome, you go to doggy day care, and dog parks, and have a revolving door in your home.

But if you bring Blitz home, and he is standoffish, aloof, does not readily trust strangers in your home, and foreign dogs in your yard, then you should not be putting the dog down because he requires work, exercise and training, more socialization, good containment, and maybe he will have to be kept away from some untrustworthy people down the line.

If you get a Golden or a Lab from a pet store or shelter, do nothing with it, and it is unfriendly and needs to be muzzled, then you probably can wear that bewildered look on your face with good conscience. But if you get a GSD from a pet store or shelter (or many other breeders), do nothing with it, and it is unfriendly and needs to be muzzled, well I am sorry, but no one is going to fall off their chair in surprise.

[sparra]

Originally Posted by Lauri & The Gang

My question is ...

What ever happened to PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY - as in people are responsible for their OWN actions (and the consequences of them)???

Guess it's gone the way of the Dodo bird and Common Sense - they are both now extinct.

Yes, they are both extinct.....that is the world we all live in now....whether we like it or not.
Take a look at pony clubs.....over here they are all closing up shop.....insurance is just too expensive.....why.....because people put their kids on horses and if they fall off it is someones else's fault....just the way it is. So yes, we all agree with you BUT PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY is a thing of the past....like it or not.....