Advice Please! Jekyl and Hyde dog-serious behavior issues-First time poster- LONG

jflo53 · 11-02-2011, 05:27 PM

Our white GSD will be two years old in January. I absolutely adore him, but the problem is, I can't trust him. I need some advice ASAP b/c I am contemplating our options with him. He is currently on time out on his rug and I plan to keep

I interact mostly with him because I am home all day and my husband works. We go for walks, play fetch, and play "go find." We have a 6 month old baby girl whom he has been very gentle with.

He went to puppy school in a group setting where we worked on basic commands and focused soley on establishing with the dog, that we are the alpha. Our trainers saw signs of his dog aggression from day 1 and rejected him for group play time in his behavioral analysis when we boarded him for a weekend. However, he did improve his on leash behavior.

We stopped going to dog parks because of his dog aggression with some dogs. It broke my heart because he loved running full speed in all that land.

We decided this past summer with having the new baby that we were going to seek out more professional training for him, so we can make sure he has the best training to succeed and be happy in our home.

Our issues to the trainer were:
1. Dog agression (with most dogs actually)
2. Food and toy territorial aggression (growling)
3. His unexpected aggression. (if someone were to go pet while he is laying down, and depending on his mood he would growl)
4. His dominance aggession
5. His obession with attacking my windows to get at squirrels

We decided on a boot camp where he stayed there for 2 week minimum with the potential of a 3rd week. He needed a third week.

This trainer focused on only positive verbal feedback and when an action was a bad one he got "feedback" which was a yank of his training (pinch) collar. If he did it again he went to time out on a rug and if he did a 3rd time, he went to time out in his kennel. When he was on the rug, we was not allowed to come off until we released him with a "smooch, smooch (kiss noise)" and picked up his leash for 5 seconds prior to the smooch.

They also focused on personal space and human initiated contact with the dog. Dogs should not initiate contact and they should respect personal space. Which I do agree with.

In the two hours we spent there when we picked him up, we did not focus on any of our concerns. I think this trainer (although he was reccomended, I would never reccommend him) had a screw loose himself. Some of his philosophies: dog should always be in kennels when the owners are not home, other people should never ask or try to pet your dog, dogs should never go to dog parks). He did not allow for us to ask many questions and belittled us during the process.

Coming home he did a much better job of recall, fetch/release, and he could stay on a rug for hours, the rug was a big whoop in my opionion.

He still attacks my screens for squirrels, he still food/toy aggressive, tried to bite my dad today whom has been around since day one. My dad went to pet him outside after he just finished inhaling a piece of bone (which normally we don't give him anymore, but I felt like he could have a treat since his they do help cleaning his teeth). A month ago after finishing playing with a friend of mine for a half hour, she came up to pet him later as he was laying by be and the baby and he tried to bite her!

Also nipped at my roofer as he was on his rug and we walked by. Granted the roofer did try to pet just as the dog rushed over to protect his food. But that doesn't justify anything! The roofer did admit that he knows better than to try and pet a dog when they are by their food, etc.

In summary, biting my dad today, has infuriated me and made me sick. He has been my dad's buddy since we got him. I called my hippy trainer and he said I would need to come in and pay $60 to see how well we have followed through with his training at home. As if the thousand dollars I paid for his training isn't enough to have a free follow up session.

I am just at a loss. I love him to death and he is a very good protecter dog. I would hate to rehome him, but at the same time, I am so concerned about something worse happening down the road. I feel like we have tried everything. Like I said before though, he is like Jekyl and Hyde, most of the time he is great, but the fact that we know he can act out at any time scares us.

I apologize for this being long (especially for a first time poster), but I needed to vent and I need some advice/support.

Any thing is appreciated!
-Jenni

jflo53 · 11-02-2011, 05:28 PM

btw, he is still on his rug for time out from biting my dad...grr!

Freestep · 11-02-2011, 05:36 PM

All of these incidents sound like resource guarding issues. Since I've never had to deal with this type of issue with my own dogs, I can't offer any suggestions, but I'm sure some others here will be able to help.

msvette2u · 11-02-2011, 05:50 PM

"doesn't justify anything"...while you're correct, that's not really how dogs "think", or behave...I know others will have advice, or you could get the book "Mine", and realize sending the dog elsewhere for training won't help him at home, where the guarding is occurring.

Amazon.com: Mine! A Practical Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs (9780970562944): Jean Donaldson: Books

You'll need to also use NILIF and Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong
I might add that instating rules like NILIF and MIND GAMES will certainly cause an increase in behavior until you see improvement.

For starters, put the dog UP away from anyone other than you at this point. A biting dog should not be allowed access to anyone other than the person working with him. He's a lawsuit waiting to happen.

jflo53 · 11-02-2011, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by msvette2u

"doesn't justify anything"...while you're correct, that's not really how dogs "think", or behave...I know others will have advice, or you could get the book "Mine", and realize sending the dog elsewhere for training won't help him at home, where the guarding is occurring.

Amazon.com: Mine! A Practical Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs (9780970562944): Jean Donaldson: Books

You'll need to also use NILIF and Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong
I might add that instating rules like NILIF and MIND GAMES will certainly cause an increase in behavior until you see improvement.

For starters, put the dog UP away from anyone other than you at this point. A biting dog should not be allowed access to anyone other than the person working with him. He's a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Thank you. I am going to look into that book. What does NILIF stand for?

**Samba** · 11-02-2011, 06:01 PM

How much training have you done personally with your dog? What behaviors does he have rhat you can predictably get him to perform?

selzer · 11-02-2011, 06:01 PM

I am afraid for your dog. He is a young adult now. I think that the right approach can turn your dog around, but I am afraid that you are too set in the whole dominance, alpha ideals.

There are some good behaviorist/trainers out there, Patricia McConnel comes to mind, that might be able to show you a different approach. I would suggest getting a book by her or one of the other positive trainers that people here can provide names for. And after reading the book and starting with some of the leadership/management things on your own, you need to look for a good behaviorist/trainer who can help you to work with your dog. You have tried the 'I'm bigger and stronger than you' approach. Maybe your dog needs something different.

Personally, I think you were robbed by the guy who took your dog for three weeks, and I hope the dog can recover from it. It obviously seemed to have ramped things up rather than down.

I suggest reading a book or two from good trainers first before finding a good professional, so that you will be at a better place to understand why they ask you to do certain things, and to question things that do not make sense to you, and to know if they are way off the page.

Remember too that growling is still a warning. The warning is something like, I don't want to bite you but if you come closer, I might have to. If you punish the growling, then you will teach the dog not to growl, meaning you will have a dog that goes right to the next step.

If the dog is growling over a high value treat like a pig's ear or bone, if you punish the dog for growling over it, then he learns not to growl, but he does not lose the underlying fear that someone will take his high value treat from him. If you take his bone from him, then he has all the more reason to have this fear. Another idea is to give him a high value treat or bone, only when he is in his treat and he can eat it and everyone leaves him alone while he is in his crate. You can teach him to take his bone to his crate. Though it is hard to teach the baby not to play with whatever the dog has, so that has to be carefully managed.

You need some help if you are going to save your dog, but I don't think the alpha/dominance language and ideology has helped with your pup.

selzer · 11-02-2011, 06:04 PM

NILIF stands for Nothing In Life Is Free. It is a leadership model of sorts and helps you to build a relationship with the dog, where the dog understands that he needs to work for the good stuff, pets, praise, good spots. Lots of people have good luck with it. It is a good starting spot, but I think you need to find a good trainer, and you need to know more in order to know whether or not the trainer is good. People here can help you. Reading books can help you too.

jflo53 · 11-02-2011, 06:09 PM

Just glanced at the Mind Games link and it seems helpful already. I am going to put some more time into reading it tonight and start implementing. Thank you so much.

msvette2u · 11-02-2011, 06:10 PM

Yes, I'd recommend leadership rather than dominance (throw that idea out the window). The leader controls the resources, and "mind games" is a way to show your dog you are the leader.
However, at your dog's age, again, this can be somewhat dangerous (he won't want to give up his leadership position he holds now) so you need to exercise due caution.
Leadership is not dominance. You will definitely be hurt if you utilize traditional "alpha roll" or "dominance" exercises.

11-02-2011, 05:27 PM	#1 (permalink)
jflo53 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 26	Advice Please! Jekyl and Hyde dog-serious behavior issues-First time poster- LONG Our white GSD will be two years old in January. I absolutely adore him, but the problem is, I can't trust him. I need some advice ASAP b/c I am contemplating our options with him. He is currently on time out on his rug and I plan to keep I interact mostly with him because I am home all day and my husband works. We go for walks, play fetch, and play "go find." We have a 6 month old baby girl whom he has been very gentle with. He went to puppy school in a group setting where we worked on basic commands and focused soley on establishing with the dog, that we are the alpha. Our trainers saw signs of his dog aggression from day 1 and rejected him for group play time in his behavioral analysis when we boarded him for a weekend. However, he did improve his on leash behavior. We stopped going to dog parks because of his dog aggression with some dogs. It broke my heart because he loved running full speed in all that land. We decided this past summer with having the new baby that we were going to seek out more professional training for him, so we can make sure he has the best training to succeed and be happy in our home. Our issues to the trainer were: 1. Dog agression (with most dogs actually) 2. Food and toy territorial aggression (growling) 3. His unexpected aggression. (if someone were to go pet while he is laying down, and depending on his mood he would growl) 4. His dominance aggession 5. His obession with attacking my windows to get at squirrels We decided on a boot camp where he stayed there for 2 week minimum with the potential of a 3rd week. He needed a third week. This trainer focused on only positive verbal feedback and when an action was a bad one he got "feedback" which was a yank of his training (pinch) collar. If he did it again he went to time out on a rug and if he did a 3rd time, he went to time out in his kennel. When he was on the rug, we was not allowed to come off until we released him with a "smooch, smooch (kiss noise)" and picked up his leash for 5 seconds prior to the smooch. They also focused on personal space and human initiated contact with the dog. Dogs should not initiate contact and they should respect personal space. Which I do agree with. In the two hours we spent there when we picked him up, we did not focus on any of our concerns. I think this trainer (although he was reccomended, I would never reccommend him) had a screw loose himself. Some of his philosophies: dog should always be in kennels when the owners are not home, other people should never ask or try to pet your dog, dogs should never go to dog parks). He did not allow for us to ask many questions and belittled us during the process. Coming home he did a much better job of recall, fetch/release, and he could stay on a rug for hours, the rug was a big whoop in my opionion. He still attacks my screens for squirrels, he still food/toy aggressive, tried to bite my dad today whom has been around since day one. My dad went to pet him outside after he just finished inhaling a piece of bone (which normally we don't give him anymore, but I felt like he could have a treat since his they do help cleaning his teeth). A month ago after finishing playing with a friend of mine for a half hour, she came up to pet him later as he was laying by be and the baby and he tried to bite her! Also nipped at my roofer as he was on his rug and we walked by. Granted the roofer did try to pet just as the dog rushed over to protect his food. But that doesn't justify anything! The roofer did admit that he knows better than to try and pet a dog when they are by their food, etc. In summary, biting my dad today, has infuriated me and made me sick. He has been my dad's buddy since we got him. I called my hippy trainer and he said I would need to come in and pay $60 to see how well we have followed through with his training at home. As if the thousand dollars I paid for his training isn't enough to have a free follow up session. I am just at a loss. I love him to death and he is a very good protecter dog. I would hate to rehome him, but at the same time, I am so concerned about something worse happening down the road. I feel like we have tried everything. Like I said before though, he is like Jekyl and Hyde, most of the time he is great, but the fact that we know he can act out at any time scares us. I apologize for this being long (especially for a first time poster), but I needed to vent and I need some advice/support. Any thing is appreciated! -Jenni

11-02-2011, 05:36 PM	#3 (permalink)
Freestep Knighted Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Northern California Posts: 3,084	All of these incidents sound like resource guarding issues. Since I've never had to deal with this type of issue with my own dogs, I can't offer any suggestions, but I'm sure some others here will be able to help. __________________ Luka von Sontausen, CD Vinca von Sontausen, CGC Freestep's Beluga Whale, BWD

11-02-2011, 05:50 PM	#4 (permalink)
msvette2u Crowned Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Beautiful Pacific NW Posts: 5,497	"doesn't justify anything"...while you're correct, that's not really how dogs "think", or behave...I know others will have advice, or you could get the book "Mine", and realize sending the dog elsewhere for training won't help him at home, where the guarding is occurring. Amazon.com: Mine! A Practical Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs (9780970562944): Jean Donaldson: Books Amazon.com: Mine! A Practical Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs (9780970562944): Jean Donaldson: Books You'll need to also use NILIF and Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong I might add that instating rules like NILIF and MIND GAMES will certainly cause an increase in behavior until you see improvement. For starters, put the dog UP away from anyone other than you at this point. A biting dog should not be allowed access to anyone other than the person working with him. He's a lawsuit waiting to happen.

11-02-2011, 06:01 PM	#7 (permalink)
selzer Crowned Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Denmark, Ohio Posts: 17,498	I am afraid for your dog. He is a young adult now. I think that the right approach can turn your dog around, but I am afraid that you are too set in the whole dominance, alpha ideals. There are some good behaviorist/trainers out there, Patricia McConnel comes to mind, that might be able to show you a different approach. I would suggest getting a book by her or one of the other positive trainers that people here can provide names for. And after reading the book and starting with some of the leadership/management things on your own, you need to look for a good behaviorist/trainer who can help you to work with your dog. You have tried the 'I'm bigger and stronger than you' approach. Maybe your dog needs something different. Personally, I think you were robbed by the guy who took your dog for three weeks, and I hope the dog can recover from it. It obviously seemed to have ramped things up rather than down. I suggest reading a book or two from good trainers first before finding a good professional, so that you will be at a better place to understand why they ask you to do certain things, and to question things that do not make sense to you, and to know if they are way off the page. Remember too that growling is still a warning. The warning is something like, I don't want to bite you but if you come closer, I might have to. If you punish the growling, then you will teach the dog not to growl, meaning you will have a dog that goes right to the next step. If the dog is growling over a high value treat like a pig's ear or bone, if you punish the dog for growling over it, then he learns not to growl, but he does not lose the underlying fear that someone will take his high value treat from him. If you take his bone from him, then he has all the more reason to have this fear. Another idea is to give him a high value treat or bone, only when he is in his treat and he can eat it and everyone leaves him alone while he is in his crate. You can teach him to take his bone to his crate. Though it is hard to teach the baby not to play with whatever the dog has, so that has to be carefully managed. You need some help if you are going to save your dog, but I don't think the alpha/dominance language and ideology has helped with your pup. __________________ RIP Arwen, CD RN CGC RIP Whitney, RN CGC Jenna, RN CGC Babs, CD RA CGC Herding Instinct Certificate Heidi, RA CGC Tori, RN CGC SG3 Odessa, SchH1, Kkl1, AD Ninja, RN CGC Milla, RN CGC Joy, Star Puppy, RN CGC Dolly & Bear

11-02-2011, 06:04 PM	#8 (permalink)
selzer Crowned Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Denmark, Ohio Posts: 17,498	NILIF stands for Nothing In Life Is Free. It is a leadership model of sorts and helps you to build a relationship with the dog, where the dog understands that he needs to work for the good stuff, pets, praise, good spots. Lots of people have good luck with it. It is a good starting spot, but I think you need to find a good trainer, and you need to know more in order to know whether or not the trainer is good. People here can help you. Reading books can help you too. __________________ RIP Arwen, CD RN CGC RIP Whitney, RN CGC Jenna, RN CGC Babs, CD RA CGC Herding Instinct Certificate Heidi, RA CGC Tori, RN CGC SG3 Odessa, SchH1, Kkl1, AD Ninja, RN CGC Milla, RN CGC Joy, Star Puppy, RN CGC Dolly & Bear

11-02-2011, 05:28 PM	#2 (permalink)
jflo53 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 26	btw, he is still on his rug for time out from biting my dad...grr!

11-02-2011, 06:01 PM	#6 (permalink)
Samba Administrator Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: USA Posts: 6,447	How much training have you done personally with your dog? What behaviors does he have rhat you can predictably get him to perform?

11-02-2011, 06:09 PM	#9 (permalink)
jflo53 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 26	Just glanced at the Mind Games link and it seems helpful already. I am going to put some more time into reading it tonight and start implementing. Thank you so much.

11-02-2011, 06:10 PM	#10 (permalink)
msvette2u Crowned Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Beautiful Pacific NW Posts: 5,497	Yes, I'd recommend leadership rather than dominance (throw that idea out the window). The leader controls the resources, and "mind games" is a way to show your dog you are the leader. However, at your dog's age, again, this can be somewhat dangerous (he won't want to give up his leadership position he holds now) so you need to exercise due caution. Leadership is not dominance. You will definitely be hurt if you utilize traditional "alpha roll" or "dominance" exercises.

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