3 dog aggression with bad "pack" structure

[KittyKat]

Hey everyone, (i moved the post to the proper board sorry)

OK so as some of you know, I have had 2 male intact dogs for a year and a half with minimal problems (the border collie is a snappy dog and is not owned by me he is my bf's dog whom which I have told I will get rid of the dog). I brought Charlie into our lives 12 weeks ago today (he is the rescue that I took in who is 1.5years old also intact)(YES I have had 3 intact male dogs in the same house for 12 weeks NEVER alone unattended) The first two days he was here our 45lb border collie took him down. (I DO NOT CONDONE ANY VIOLENCE, GROWLING, SQUARING OFF or ANY behavior like that) Now he doesn't mess with the collie at all.
Charlie and my 2 year old boy Yrie usually get along pretty well. Charlie has a bad habit of putting his head on the back of Yrie's neck (Yrie is 10lbs heavier and 1" taller also @ nearly 90lbs) I know he is trying to get his "pack" order. Yrie will NOT give up that lead pack space. WE the humans are the leaders. The dogs have there own order from Yrie, Ruger and Charlie. Which Charlie always tries to push Yrie around but Yrie will growl or grumble at him. We'll be watching tv Yrie will be asleep Charlie will walk over and stand on him and he will get growled at. Which I would to. I tell Charlie to knock it off and he does. He'll go lay somewhere else. If they are walking around the house together Charlie always tries to get his head on the back of Yrie's neck. I know what he's doing and after being told once, he gets a correction and put in a place till he is told to get up or do something else. THAT was very hard for Charlie in the beginning but is much better now.

SO with that said.... now my issue. Our little Collie has now decided to just pick fights whenever he wants. He has always growled and showed his teeth at other dogs at training. He was not bought from a very good place (I found that out AFTER I got him) He's been in training a lot but we have taken some time off due to money issues since taking in Charlie. Everything is starting to work its self out now so we are hopefully on an upward climb and will be partaking in training again. We do keep them busy with at home training when we are not at the training facility. Ruger has been taking part in disc tricks with his owner.(my bf)

Our last fight which was really our first fight (any of the other scuffles were little snaps or wrestling match's which are always stopped and not put up with) Yrie was walking by the side of the house and my friend was over with her GSD also and she said "Ruger's showing his teeth" no sooner do I go to say RUGER knock it off... he attacks Yrie. Yrie did nothing. And was doing nothing to him even 15 minutes prior to the incident. So they are fighting with teeth snapping at the front enterance I yelled for them to stop and Yrie had Ruger's head in his mouth they tripped up the step and fell and with Ruger's head in Yrie's mouth after it hit the ground ended up cutting Ruger's head open. (which I was unaware of right away as it didn't bleed at all) I corrected both of them firmly gave them some time apart in there spots. After awhile I let Ruger back out and he went and sat by my friend she says... uh Ruger has a cut on his head.

I go look sure enough right down to the skull. About 3 - 4" long. Great. I know my vet is not in the office Wednesday afternoons. We packed him up in the car and took him in and a vet tech looked him over and said I could come back the next day. (It was around 6pm she was just getting ready to go home) So I bring him back the next morning and he gets 5 stitches. He stays there all day. I pick him up and he's "drunk" from being put under and he's ok for a bit when we get home. Then no sooner does he come and lay in the living room Yrie walks over to him to see whats up and the little bugger starts showing his teeth already! I told him knock it off! so he does. I know he smelled very different from what they were used to him smelling. They wouldn't go near him when I first brought him home.

So my question is..... how do I stop these little out bursts? They can be totally random. 10 minutes later they want to sleep beside each other..... Just doesn't make sense to me. I'm sure you guys see something I don't and probably have more experience than me. Hoping to hear something back, even if its just of something YOU did or tried and it helped or worked. I will attach a few photos.

Charlie and Yrie.


Charlie and Ruger


Now Rugers head wound.... Right after it happened


and after he got stitched up (Thank the vet tech for shaving his head like that.... when obviously there was no need to and I specifically asked it be shaved as minimal as possible.)



Well hope someone can give me some help with pack structure or what to do with these boys. I was prepared for much more violence than what I've gotten, I'm def not complaining but want to improve what we have. I'm prepared to hear that the problem is with me and my training through this aggression or whatever you call it.

[KittyKat]

ALSO Charlie wasn't allowed near my dogs for a week and wasn't allowed near them off leash for two weeks after that. Being abused, mistreated and his physical limitations I didn't want to push him to hard and have a "broken" dog even more than what I started with.

[KittyKat]

Ok reading more on aggression links on this page.... Yrie is 2yrs 4 months.... Ruger is 1yr 8 months and Charlie is around a year and a half.

[msvette2u]

My first instinct would be to give Charlie slightly more crate time, less "cuddle" time, etc. to try to (pardon the expression) knock him down a peg or two.
For instance...because I take my Dachshund, Tristan, more places than I do the other dogs, he's towards the top of the ladder so to speak, than the other dogs.
So...treat the others slightly more preferentially than Charlie at this point.
Unless you want Charlie to be the 2nd down the list, and I think that may lead to WWIII in your home...

[Warrior09]

Well i dont have three dogs but i do have an dog aggressive rottie; LOVES ppl and Children (lets any1 play rough or knock her down while slapping her) and won't even show teeth. But as soon as i brought Hachi home she went crazy, which she was the only dog for 3 years until he arrived so i knew she was going to be jealous. They fought (yeah, even him being 9 months old, he held his own) nothing serious just a charge here and there and snap once or twice and they were alright. He survived the next the day lol. She doesn't go around hachi unless i go towards him. She even gets in between us which i correct her and place right beside me and pet them at the same time.
I personally think if you aren't going to breed them, then you should get them all neutured. Neuturing a male stops them from marking their territory, showing aggression towards other dogs, and stops them from wondering off.
Imagine that your border collie was a female and your two males weren't fixed, they would fight to the death for her.
This is just a personal opinion i don't expect any1 to do as i say.
just something to think about at least.

[Warrior09]

Male Dog Neutering - all you need to know.

[msvette2u]

Neutering would certainly not hurt the situation at all...might not help it a ton but cannot hurt, and would take testosterone out of the picture.

[Samba]

I never had much luck integrating our BC with GSDs. She did make a frenemy of my one girl. They loved their lives of constant aggravation of one another! Fortunately, the big girl was not easy to trigger into fighting. The BC would hide and get snappish when snarking out from under furniture when the mood took her. Some dogs tolerated her and some did not. One can try to make it clear what behavior is acceptable, but I can not predict the success of that. It would depend on the particular dog and the owners skill combined.

I think BC plus GSD is sometimes a tough mix of breeds. Be very careful and don't leave them alone.

[WVGSD]

My family had the same struggle with my Border Collie and my mother's German Shepherd. The Border Collie started the fights and always got the worst end of the stick. The two finally had to be crated, rotated and kept separate for the remainder of their lives.