Need advice....growling @ me

mysweetkaos · 10-10-2011, 09:28 AM

We have a 6 month old GSD/Mastiff x puppy and a 9 yr old GSD. We have had the puppy since June when we started fostering him and we adopted him in July. We have kept feedings seperate areas of kitchen, treats and bones are only in their own crate or gated area of the house. We don't do toys in the house (except a few chew toys in Tank's (puppy) crate. We have just started reintroducing some toys into the yard when we are there to supervise. Kaos (9yr) is really only interested in laying down outside and watching the kids play (so not toy motivated). So last night we had a jolly ball out with the puppy. Things were going great. Kaos was playing with my husband and kids in one part of the yard and I was playing with Tank in another part of the yard. Tank has not gotten good at "drop it" . A couple of times Kaos came over to us and acted like he wanted the ball, Tank would drop it w/out a problem when Kaos would walk over, but I would give Kaos the look and he would walk off and go back to the boys. So shortly after Kaos had come over I reached down to take the ball from Tank and he GROWLED at me. Big growl, I'm showing you my teeth kind of growl. My husband walked over and he ran to him and sat, I took the ball and put it away.
So I called his trainer she said to take him out give him the ball (and a prong on), then give the drop command and reach for the ball and if he shows any signs of a growl give him "one **** of a correction". I am torn. Is that the correct way? (we never had this issue w/Kaos) I am thinking I need to work with drop it more before I resort to that.....am I just being too soft or is she correct? I again may be being to soft but I think he was just mimicking what Kaos does to him.....that being said I don't take growling at me lightly. I can not tolerate that, I have children and he is going to be one large dog.

**gsdraven** · 10-10-2011, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mysweetkaos

So I called his trainer she said to take him out give him the ball (and a prong on), then give the drop command and reach for the ball and if he shows any signs of a growl give him "one **** of a correction". I am torn. Is that the correct way? (we never had this issue w/Kaos) I am thinking I need to work with drop it more before I resort to that.....am I just being too soft or is she correct?

ABSOLUTELY NOT!! All you would be doing is confirming that he had a reason to be concerned about you reaching for his ball.

Does he do this with other toys? No more jolly ball for a long time.

You need to be showing him that you touching his toys is a good thing. Playing trading games with him. Give him the toy, offer super yummy treats in exchange for him dropping it and do a few repeats of that then let him play with it. Then call him away from the toy, put him up and but the toy away.

Absolutely no toys when your kids around. This should be a very structured learning session with just the two of you.

Using aggression to correct aggression can backfire by making the first aggressor react even stronger because clearly you didn't respect their warning the first time.

BlackPuppy · 10-10-2011, 09:37 AM

He's testing you. Okay, that's my opinion, but it's a 6 month old puppy, right?

If it was my own dog, I would say "No!" and remove the toy with authority.

It also happened to me while I was pet sitting my neighbor's unruly dog. I brought over a really nice jute tug to motivate her. She claimed it for her own, and growled at me when I tried to take it away. I did the same thing, a stern "No!" and I just took my tug from her. She still loves me.

**MaggieRoseLee** · 10-10-2011, 09:43 AM

Is it the older dog, Tank?, that's now growling?

Or the younger dog, Kaos?

PLUS, my dogs growl at me all the time WHEN WE PLAY with toys.... but I know the difference. And there are rules (mostly involving the 'drop it' or at least I KNOW they are playing). My dogs play growl at each other, and play growl at me, and most people listening would be clueless about the 'playing' part and only hear the vicious sounding growling.

mysweetkaos · 10-10-2011, 09:46 AM

Kaos is my older dog....I can't ever remember an instance of him growling at me.

Tank is the puppy...he's the one who growled at me
I know Tank is very vocal and he has some cute play growls when he plays with Kaos or his toys.....but this most definetely had no play behind it.

mysweetkaos · 10-10-2011, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsdraven

ABSOLUTELY NOT!! All you would be doing is confirming that he had a reason to be concerned about you reaching for his ball.

Does he do this with other toys? No more jolly ball for a long time.

You need to be showing him that you touching his toys is a good thing. Playing trading games with him. Give him the toy, offer super yummy treats in exchange for him dropping it and do a few repeats of that then let him play with it. Then call him away from the toy, put him up and but the toy away.

Absolutely no toys when your kids around. This should be a very structured learning session with just the two of you.

Using aggression to correct aggression can backfire by making the first aggressor react even stronger because clearly you didn't respect their warning the first time.

He does not growl with his other toys. He has a bone and a few chewies in his "area" I can reach in there no problem, even if he is chewing on them I will pet his face or take the bone and let him watch me put peanut butter in it and then hand it back. He only growled once before... he went into Kaos' crate stole his marrow bone and was hiding in the corner with his loot....he put on quite a show when my husband went over to him. In that instant we said NO, put a bucket down on top of the bone and then called him out of the corner. I agree he will not be playing with the kids, that will be on my list until he is secure. So I am not being too soft by thinking I need to train a dependable drop it first?

**MaggieRoseLee** · 10-10-2011, 09:52 AM

For a puppy, I'd be real careful about coming down to hard on him, specially if there's any doubt that it's play growling or real. We want our dogs to play with us, so punishing will be an issue.

Personally, I'd be working on tons of 'drop it's' and when the puppy does, replace it with Toy #2. So always reward a pup for leaving one toy by giving another! Makes YOU the Keeper of the Toys, and no reason to even think of growling except as part of the game.

Bonding, relationship building, ENGAGEMENT training.... all this builds up your bond with your dog so you know they wouldn't think of challenging you. So the time time time it takes during the day with DOG CLASSES, training tricks, playing games, engagement training, SOCIALIZATION outside the home, and EXERCISE EXERCISE EXERCISE!!!

mysweetkaos · 10-10-2011, 10:03 AM

I agree with all of that. Tank is involved in training classes. We take 2 walks a day, one with Kaos, one without. I do 20-30 min of working on his lessons from class daily. We take him out quite a bit, to stores, busy parks, downtown areas. We took him to an open house at the Fire dept yesterday. He got tons of practice sitting while people approached and staying calm (no jumping, no rolling around) while people greeted him, not to mention he got exposure to big trucks, Firefighter gear...etc He did AMAZING.....he was so well behaved, I was proud of him........that was before the little incident.
So we definetely devote a lot of time to bonding with him

msvette2u · 10-10-2011, 10:13 AM

Just a by-the-by, my Dachshund Tristan growls all the time.
I learned when I first got him (he was paralyzed) and he was in the corner of the couch. My daughter (13 @ the time) went to sit down and Tris growled like "don't sit near me! this is my corner!" and I simply moved him. He didn't bite.
He did it again a bit later and I moved him - remember he was paralyzed so I had to do all the moving of him, he couldn't move himself.

Anyway - this has continued - the growling - but he's never bitten, it's like he's grumbly but not aggressive. I sometimes nuzzle his neck at the end of the day and he'll growl and I'll "grr" back and he continues until the game's over.

Some dogs are naturally grumbly, doesn't necessarily mean aggression.
In your case - it might - or he just may be amped up and vocal and not necessarily meaning it in a nasty way.

Oh and another of our dogs will hold onto the ball something fierce but allow you to finally wrest it away (he's a 10lb. Dachshund).

That said, I'd NILIF and do the other stuff people suggested because if it is early "testing" or even resource guarding, he'll get worse with higher value objects.

I just wanted to throw it out there that he may be incorporating vocalization in his play.

mysweetkaos · 10-10-2011, 10:30 AM

Kaos (ol man) grumbles all the time while playing with Tank an Tank will grumble back....but this was different. He was baring his teeth and staring at me, with his eyes and ears visibly different (best description I can do) from a play stance.

So as for now I guess I will amp up training. Looks like he will spend his day tethered to me, hope he likes doing laundry.....and I will work more on the NILIF regimen with him.

10-10-2011, 09:28 AM	#1 (permalink)
mysweetkaos Elite Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: St Louis, MO Posts: 1,246	Need advice....growling @ me We have a 6 month old GSD/Mastiff x puppy and a 9 yr old GSD. We have had the puppy since June when we started fostering him and we adopted him in July. We have kept feedings seperate areas of kitchen, treats and bones are only in their own crate or gated area of the house. We don't do toys in the house (except a few chew toys in Tank's (puppy) crate. We have just started reintroducing some toys into the yard when we are there to supervise. Kaos (9yr) is really only interested in laying down outside and watching the kids play (so not toy motivated). So last night we had a jolly ball out with the puppy. Things were going great. Kaos was playing with my husband and kids in one part of the yard and I was playing with Tank in another part of the yard. Tank has not gotten good at "drop it" . A couple of times Kaos came over to us and acted like he wanted the ball, Tank would drop it w/out a problem when Kaos would walk over, but I would give Kaos the look and he would walk off and go back to the boys. So shortly after Kaos had come over I reached down to take the ball from Tank and he GROWLED at me. Big growl, I'm showing you my teeth kind of growl. My husband walked over and he ran to him and sat, I took the ball and put it away. So I called his trainer she said to take him out give him the ball (and a prong on), then give the drop command and reach for the ball and if he shows any signs of a growl give him "one **** of a correction". I am torn. Is that the correct way? (we never had this issue w/Kaos) I am thinking I need to work with drop it more before I resort to that.....am I just being too soft or is she correct? I again may be being to soft but I think he was just mimicking what Kaos does to him.....that being said I don't take growling at me lightly. I can not tolerate that, I have children and he is going to be one large dog.

10-10-2011, 09:43 AM	#4 (permalink)
MaggieRoseLee The Agility Rocks! Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Bushkill, PA (The Poconos!) Posts: 22,198	Is it the older dog, Tank?, that's now growling? Or the younger dog, Kaos? PLUS, my dogs growl at me all the time WHEN WE PLAY with toys.... but I know the difference. And there are rules (mostly involving the 'drop it' or at least I KNOW they are playing). My dogs play growl at each other, and play growl at me, and most people listening would be clueless about the 'playing' part and only hear the vicious sounding growling. __________________ MACH2 Bretta Lee Wildhaus CGC TC TQX Glory B Wildhaus NA, NJ, NF + LOL (still) "*Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde* Last edited by MaggieRoseLee; 10-10-2011 at 09:45 AM.

10-10-2011, 09:46 AM	#5 (permalink)
mysweetkaos Elite Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: St Louis, MO Posts: 1,246	Kaos is my older dog....I can't ever remember an instance of him growling at me. Tank is the puppy...he's the one who growled at me I know Tank is very vocal and he has some cute play growls when he plays with Kaos or his toys.....but this most definetely had no play behind it. Last edited by mysweetkaos; 10-10-2011 at 09:53 AM.

10-10-2011, 09:52 AM	#7 (permalink)
MaggieRoseLee The Agility Rocks! Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Bushkill, PA (The Poconos!) Posts: 22,198	For a puppy, I'd be real careful about coming down to hard on him, specially if there's any doubt that it's play growling or real. We want our dogs to play with us, so punishing will be an issue. Personally, I'd be working on tons of 'drop it's' and when the puppy does, replace it with Toy #2. So always reward a pup for leaving one toy by giving another! Makes YOU the Keeper of the Toys, and no reason to even think of growling except as part of the game. Bonding, relationship building, ENGAGEMENT training.... all this builds up your bond with your dog so you know they wouldn't think of challenging you. So the time time time it takes during the day with DOG CLASSES, training tricks, playing games, engagement training, SOCIALIZATION outside the home, and EXERCISE EXERCISE EXERCISE!!! __________________ MACH2 Bretta Lee Wildhaus CGC TC TQX Glory B Wildhaus NA, NJ, NF + LOL (still) "*Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde*

10-10-2011, 10:30 AM	#10 (permalink)
mysweetkaos Elite Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: St Louis, MO Posts: 1,246	Kaos (ol man) grumbles all the time while playing with Tank an Tank will grumble back....but this was different. He was baring his teeth and staring at me, with his eyes and ears visibly different (best description I can do) from a play stance. So as for now I guess I will amp up training. Looks like he will spend his day tethered to me, hope he likes doing laundry.....and I will work more on the NILIF regimen with him. Last edited by mysweetkaos; 10-10-2011 at 10:36 AM.

10-10-2011, 09:37 AM	#3 (permalink)
BlackPuppy Crowned Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 4,420	He's testing you. Okay, that's my opinion, but it's a 6 month old puppy, right? If it was my own dog, I would say "No!" and remove the toy with authority. It also happened to me while I was pet sitting my neighbor's unruly dog. I brought over a really nice jute tug to motivate her. She claimed it for her own, and growled at me when I tried to take it away. I did the same thing, a stern "No!" and I just took my tug from her. She still loves me.

10-10-2011, 10:03 AM	#8 (permalink)
mysweetkaos Elite Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: St Louis, MO Posts: 1,246	I agree with all of that. Tank is involved in training classes. We take 2 walks a day, one with Kaos, one without. I do 20-30 min of working on his lessons from class daily. We take him out quite a bit, to stores, busy parks, downtown areas. We took him to an open house at the Fire dept yesterday. He got tons of practice sitting while people approached and staying calm (no jumping, no rolling around) while people greeted him, not to mention he got exposure to big trucks, Firefighter gear...etc He did AMAZING.....he was so well behaved, I was proud of him........that was before the little incident. So we definetely devote a lot of time to bonding with him

10-10-2011, 10:13 AM	#9 (permalink)
msvette2u Crowned Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Beautiful Pacific NW Posts: 5,497	Just a by-the-by, my Dachshund Tristan growls all the time. I learned when I first got him (he was paralyzed) and he was in the corner of the couch. My daughter (13 @ the time) went to sit down and Tris growled like "don't sit near me! this is my corner!" and I simply moved him. He didn't bite. He did it again a bit later and I moved him - remember he was paralyzed so I had to do all the moving of him, he couldn't move himself. Anyway - this has continued - the growling - but he's never bitten, it's like he's grumbly but not aggressive. I sometimes nuzzle his neck at the end of the day and he'll growl and I'll "grr" back and he continues until the game's over. Some dogs are naturally grumbly, doesn't necessarily mean aggression. In your case - it might - or he just may be amped up and vocal and not necessarily meaning it in a nasty way. Oh and another of our dogs will hold onto the ball something fierce but allow you to finally wrest it away (he's a 10lb. Dachshund). That said, I'd NILIF and do the other stuff people suggested because if it is early "testing" or even resource guarding, he'll get worse with higher value objects. I just wanted to throw it out there that he may be incorporating vocalization in his play.

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