Agression Out Of The Blue...

[Sunstreaked]

We have a great dog park where we take Eva (almost 13 months) a maximum of 2x per week.

There's a good mix of dogs, mostly large like her, and she's good with them all.

Today, shortly after our arrival, within roughly one minute, she was posturing and snarl/growling at a small 5 mo old boxer pup (also a female). We've never seen this before from her.

We were walking behind her and arrived in seconds, told her "leave it" - she did - and we leashed her and had her "time out" so to speak for a few minutes. She was then allowed off leash and we stayed close to where the puppy was to guard against another occurrence. We were worried that if we went to the opposite side of the park we would be too far away if there was another problem.

She did do the growl/snarl thing again and at that point we leashed her and left.

The boxer owners were great and accepted our apologies (twice!) for Eva growling at their pup.

Besides the whole dog park thing - what did we do wrong and what the heck do you thing Eva was doing?

Please ask me whatever you want to know as this behavior really startled us.

[e.rigby]

Without seeing any of it, there could have been any number of reasons... however, your pup is growing up and becoming an adult. A 5 month old Boxer is very much a puppy... perhaps she just doesn't like puppies (I know plenty of adult dogs that don't)

Did the Boxer puppy do anything in particular? Was it trying to play with her?

If it was attempting to play with her, and she was growling at it -- then she was merely telling it to leave her alone. You are perfectly fine removing and redirecting your dog -- but I would caution you heavily against correcting her behavior -- she it being courteous enough to let you know she is uncomfortable, and the next step for an uncomfortable do to take is to bite. If you correct her for growling and she somehow finds herself in a similar situation -- she may not be so inclined to warn those around her that she is uncomfortable and you'll end up with a dog that just bites out of no where (though, technically, bites almost always happen for a reason!)

[Sunstreaked]

Originally Posted by e.rigby

Did the Boxer puppy do anything in particular? Was it trying to play with her?

This happened so quickly after we entered - we were literally walking toward a table to set our bag (about 20 feet away) and the pup got in Eva's face with puppy behavior - jumping, licking, etc. - and Eva had a snarl on her face that was not (to my eyes) a play snarl.

She was praised for responding to the "leave it" and when leashed the first time we didn't really say anything to her, we were "omg did you see that?" to each other.

There were other dogs there that were small and she had no problems with any of them.

What you said about her being uncomfortable and letting us know makes a lot of sense. Thank you!

[e.rigby]

Originally Posted by Sunstreaked

the pup got in Eva's face with puppy behavior - jumping, licking, etc. - and Eva had a snarl on her face that was not (to my eyes) a play snarl.

Sounds to me like she just didn't want this puppy in her face. If the puppy came to her and she growled to get it to back off -- she wasn't being outright aggressive for no reason.

In a situation like that, where the Boxer pup is trying to play with dogs that obviously don't want to play with him -- the Boxer's owners should be the one removing their puppy! Sadly, most owners just don't understand and/or just don't care.

Some dogs are more tolerant than others of 'rude' behavior. Your dog was being polite enough to tell the puppy to back off... the next step would be a lunge/snap towards the puppy. So, if you see this behavior again, call your dog over to you and if the other dog follows, try to block it or get the owner to remove their dog from yours. It would also be helpful to take your dog to another section of the park!

[codmaster]

Interesting reaction. It really does sound like your dog was just telling the puppy to "back off" and I really wouldn't worry about it too much unless it happens again with other dogs! usually most adult dogs (mine included) will put up with a whole lot of crap from a young puppy but at 5/6 mo. old that puppy was sort of at the end of the usual "puppy examption" that most adults will give to young puppies.

OTOH, I really can't believe that folks would say to never correct a dog that is growling at something! Sre we just supposed to let the dog get away with growling at something that they don't like? Wouldn't this just teach the dog that if they don't like something, they can just act aggressively and whatever they don't like will go away or they will get their way?

Would it also work with a human child, tell them to do something, the kid complains or just refuses so the parents don't correct the behavior? If we had done that, my kid would certainly have learned something from that (and it wouldn't be good!).

Just wondering since so many folks seem to think that kids and dogs are very similar sometimes????

[e.rigby]

Originally Posted by codmaster

OTOH, I really can't believe that folks would say to never correct a dog that is growling at something! Sre we just supposed to let the dog get away with growling at something that they don't like? Wouldn't this just teach the dog that if they don't like something, they can just act aggressively and whatever they don't like will go away or they will get their way?

Would it also work with a human child, tell them to do something, the kid complains or just refuses so the parents don't correct the behavior? If we had done that, my kid would certainly have learned something from that (and it wouldn't be good!).

Just wondering since so many folks seem to think that kids and dogs are very similar sometimes????

But dogs and kids are not the same. Dogs are canines... kids are primates (or at least more closely related than to a canine).

Anyway. If a dog is growling there is a reason. It's unfair to the dog to just assume they are acting aggressively and that they should be punished or silenced. I also think you're reading what I (or others) have to say incorrectly. Just because a dog IS growling doesn't mean it's 'appropriate' for the dog to be doing. However, if you punish the dog for growling you are just getting rid of the signal, kind of like a smoke detector! I'd rather put out the fire than get rid of an alarm that is telling me something is wrong.

When a dog growls, the appropriate response would be to figure out WHY the dog is growling. If the dog is growling inappropriately or if the dog is over exaggerating something (such as annoyance or fear) then it's up to us to figure out how to change the dog's emotional state... not to just smother it and hope it doesn't show up as an amplified response later on.

If I have a dog that growls because another dog comes near him when he's on his bed -- I could then assume he is being territorial of his bed and doesn't want the other dog impeding upon him. Now, in a home situation this is a bit unrealistic to expect all other dogs to stay away from him... so it is my job to counter condition the growling dog... not to smother his smoke alarm. If I teach him that other dogs approaching bring positive reward, he can then learn that his previous response was unwarranted and thus no longer needed.

Every situation is going to be different.. so every situation needs to be examined and a behavior modification plan needs to be put in place. I do not want any of the dogs in my household growling at one another -- simply because I do not want anyone to feel the need to be fearful or protective of the resources in my house. It's how I have created a peaceful pack.. punishing those who try to communicate their dis-ease will only lead to problems later on...

[codmaster]

Originally Posted by e.rigby

But dogs and kids are not the same. Dogs are canines... kids are primates (or at least more closely related than to a canine).

Anyway. If a dog is growling there is a reason. It's unfair to the dog to just assume they are acting aggressively and that they should be punished or silenced. I also think you're reading what I (or others) have to say incorrectly. Just because a dog IS growling doesn't mean it's 'appropriate' for the dog to be doing. However, if you punish the dog for growling you are just getting rid of the signal, kind of like a smoke detector! I'd rather put out the fire than get rid of an alarm that is telling me something is wrong.

When a dog growls, the appropriate response would be to figure out WHY the dog is growling. If the dog is growling inappropriately or if the dog is over exaggerating something (such as annoyance or fear) then it's up to us to figure out how to change the dog's emotional state... not to just smother it and hope it doesn't show up as an amplified response later on.

If I have a dog that growls because another dog comes near him when he's on his bed -- I could then assume he is being territorial of his bed and doesn't want the other dog impeding upon him. Now, in a home situation this is a bit unrealistic to expect all other dogs to stay away from him... so it is my job to counter condition the growling dog... not to smother his smoke alarm. If I teach him that other dogs approaching bring positive reward, he can then learn that his previous response was unwarranted and thus no longer needed.

Every situation is going to be different.. so every situation needs to be examined and a behavior modification plan needs to be put in place. I do not want any of the dogs in my household growling at one another -- simply because I do not want anyone to feel the need to be fearful or protective of the resources in my house. It's how I have created a peaceful pack.. punishing those who try to communicate their dis-ease will only lead to problems later on...

We do agree that we need to figure out what is causing the aggression, but we totaslly disagree on what to do about it.

Sounds like you (and many other people it appears from my obedience club) make a fundamental assumption. That if we correct the dog when it is acting aggressively inappropriatly, i.e. when another dog comes too close or when a family member trys to take a bone out of it's mouth or maybe when one tries to get the dog to get off the bed or couch, then the dog will take the correction as just responding to the growl (or snap!) and not to the behavior that caused the reaction (i.e. NOT getting off of the couch!). I disagree with this interpretation of a dog's thinking.

If my dog ever growled at me for doing something (unless he is in great pain or something like that), you can bet that he would get a "motivational" level correction and I will guarantee that he would understand what behavior he did that prompted his behavior.

Similarly, if he reacts to another dog inappropriately, he will get corrected (leveled with the degree of his reaction of course) and then quickly redirected or given other rapid fire obedience commands to break his fix on the other dog. This works! And his behavior has been getting a LOT better lately since we went to this approach.

Just a few thoughts on what works for me with a very head strong "hard" dog who can be a little DA sometimes.

Different techniques for different dogs and different trainers!

Whatever works!

[e.rigby]

Originally Posted by codmaster

Different techniques for different dogs and different trainers!

All dogs are going to be different, and they are going to react differently... I'd rather not risk it.

If it works for you, that's great. If you think about it though -- it's easier to teach someone how to counter condition a dog than how to appropriately correct a dog. If the person reads the dog wrong, or corrects the dog inappropriately there's a great chance of a negative fallout. So even if someone is going to use a correction based program, it's best to do so under the direct supervision and consult of an experienced trainer. I say this mostly because of all the cases I've seen with people using punishment inappropriately and really messing up their dogs

[blehmannwa]

Boxers stare. I don't know why--something to do with their facial anatomy perhaps? But I have met a lot of dogs who react to boxers and some boxers seem to enjoy provoking other dogs. It is very rude to stare in dog language.

[CarrieJ]

Growling at a human is completely different than telling a young dog (a boxer on top of that) to leave me alone.
Boxers are pretty misunderstood by both humans and dogs. They have weird faces, and no tails (usually) and the ones that have clipped ears have a double whammy as far as communicating with their own species is involved.
Boxers tend to play in a very upright (hence the name) pugilistic fashion...not all dogs get that as play. Many take it as a dominant challenge.
That being said, I have to agree with e.rigby with this statement.

If it was attempting to play with her, and she was growling at it -- then she was merely telling it to leave her alone. You are perfectly fine removing and redirecting your dog -- but I would caution you heavily against correcting her behavior -- she it being courteous enough to let you know she is uncomfortable, and the next step for an uncomfortable do to take is to bite. If you correct her for growling and she somehow finds herself in a similar situation -- she may not be so inclined to warn those around her that she is uncomfortable and you'll end up with a dog that just bites out of no where (though, technically, bites almost always happen for a reason!)

We just ejected a youngish Lab for this exact reason. A dog would brush up against him at a gate and he would literally launch. Here's your timing on the scenario.
Brush, Lab's eyes dialate while launching locks on to dog's neck. And he (the Lab) would not let go. It would take literally manhandling him off the other dog.
It was oh about: one thousand one one thousand attack.
Not much warning. No lip curl, no growl just go.
Scary stuff, in an interesting sort of way....that dog wasn't right.