Protective or fearful?

[horsegirl]

Originally Posted by Castlemaid

Yes, I was posting for you. A lot of people feel that their dog going bonkers at the end of a leash when people approach is being protective - but that is complete fear! A protective dog acts calm and in control, and does not over-react. It comes from a place of confidence, not fear.

100% true statement , I agree , that is the nuts and bolts of it. I am somewhat dumbfounded that people with breeds like gsd's do not know the difference. No one sat me down and said listen , if your dog acts like "xxx" its strong nerve and confidence, if it acts like"xxoo" its bad nerves and fear. I read my dog on a daily basis, he knows how I am feeling and I can pretty much tell how he is. Is it just not natural for some people??

[Freestep]

Originally Posted by selzer

Is it courage or lack of intelligence to run right up to it and sniff it?

Good question! Dogs will sometimes do really dumb things if they don't have any natural caution; but we humans don't seem to want a lot of natural caution in our GSDs. We want them to face a threat with no fear, caution, or tenativeness... of course, sport is highly ritualized and the dogs are trained to the point where they know they won't get hurt. But Police dogs may very well be hurt or killed in the line of duty.

But we all like our dogs to be brave, fearless, and willing to put their lives on the line for us. We as humans value this courage, breed for it, and encourage it... but is it really good for the dogs themselves?

A prime example of this would be the fighting Pit Bull. These dogs are bred to have the highest level of fearlessness and willingness to fight, even if it means they will be seriously injured or killed. This "gameness" is highly valued and sought after. A "game" dog will not quit a fight even when he is losing, or in fact even dying. Basically, in biological terms, the dog has no natural sense of self-preservation. In the wild, this would spell their demise as they would attack any living creature without fear, even a pack of wolves or a bear. This of course is suicide for the dog.

It's an interesting philosphical discussion.

There are also some breeds where there is a fine balance between courage and self-preservation. I'm thinking of breeds used for hunting wild boar; these "bay dogs" must have the courage to find the boar and hold it at bay without attacking it, and will avoid being attacked themselves. This self-preservation is valued, as wild boars are extremely dangerous and good bay dogs are expensive. The hunters will then bring in a "catch dog", often a Pit Bull, to attack and hold the boar, as these catch dogs have no regard for self-preservation.

[Castlemaid]

Interesting info, Freestep! Never thought about the balance between fearlesness and self-preservation. Something new to think about . . .

[codmaster]

Originally Posted by Freestep

Good question! Dogs will sometimes do really dumb things if they don't have any natural caution; but we humans don't seem to want a lot of natural caution in our GSDs. We want them to face a threat with no fear, caution, or tenativeness... of course, sport is highly ritualized and the dogs are trained to the point where they know they won't get hurt. But Police dogs may very well be hurt or killed in the line of duty.

But we all like our dogs to be brave, fearless, and willing to put their lives on the line for us. We as humans value this courage, breed for it, and encourage it... but is it really good for the dogs themselves?

A prime example of this would be the fighting Pit Bull. These dogs are bred to have the highest level of fearlessness and willingness to fight, even if it means they will be seriously injured or killed. This "gameness" is highly valued and sought after. A "game" dog will not quit a fight even when he is losing, or in fact even dying. Basically, in biological terms, the dog has no natural sense of self-preservation. In the wild, this would spell their demise as they would attack any living creature without fear, even a pack of wolves or a bear. This of course is suicide for the dog.

It's an interesting philosphical discussion.

There are also some breeds where there is a fine balance between courage and self-preservation. I'm thinking of breeds used for hunting wild boar; these "bay dogs" must have the courage to find the boar and hold it at bay without attacking it, and will avoid being attacked themselves. This self-preservation is valued, as wild boars are extremely dangerous and good bay dogs are expensive. The hunters will then bring in a "catch dog", often a Pit Bull, to attack and hold the boar, as these catch dogs have no regard for self-preservation.

Very interesting discussion topic and obviously based on some good thoughts about species preservation.

Also should have a line about "thresholds" if we talk about when a dog should react to a threat.

That is, there maybe some threats that demand a fast reaction with no "THOUGHT" possible - i.e. what would you expect a chase dog to do if the boar runs at the hunter (I don't know much about hunting dogs but i would certainly expect the dog to jump on the boar to save the hunter, a momma dog to fight the bear coming after her puppies, and esp. the K9 to sacrifice itself to save the cop from the bad guy).

[MaggieRoseLee]

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/dog-aggression-FAQs

Great article about aggressions..

[Marc]

Originally Posted by MaggieRoseLee

Canine Aggression Frequently Asked Questions | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors

Great article about aggressions..

Very great article. I always think of aggression as a symptom, not the problem. Dont treat the symptom, treat the problem. Any aggression, in my opinion is fear based, either they are afraid of something happening to them, or they are afraid of something happening to something that belongs to them (owners, toys food, ect) these problems can be treated if you find out what your dog is scared about, and then build up the confidence in your dog that there is no threat to what he desires.

I also believe there is aggression caused by psychological problems and mental disabilities, that would need medication or possibly euthanisation to fix.

[codmaster]

Originally Posted by Marc

Very great article. I always think of aggression as a symptom, not the problem. Dont treat the symptom, treat the problem. Any aggression, in my opinion is fear based, either they are afraid of something happening to them, or they are afraid of something happening to something that belongs to them (owners, toys food, ect) these problems can be treated if you find out what your dog is scared about, and then build up the confidence in your dog that there is no threat to what he desires.

I also believe there is aggression caused by psychological problems and mental disabilities, that would need medication or possibly euthanisation to fix.

"All aggression is fear based" - that sounds like a couple of instructors at my local OB club!

Perhaps I misunderstood your post - you said that all aggression is fear based BUT then you also say that aggression can also be based on "psychological problems and mental disabilities".

So what is aggression really based on, in your opinion?

HUH?


How about agression based on the natural normal drives of dogs?

I.e. Prey drive, pack drive, etc.

For me, it is really hard to think that my dog is acting out of "Fear" when he is at the end of his leash trying as hard as he can to go FORWARD at the bad guy there.

[Catu]

If you want to think about, it is true, as much is true for every motivation in the world. It's not to be a good Christian, it's fear to go to ****, it's not love, it is fear to be alone, it's fear something can happen to your children, your spouse, your friends. You don't fight to be a better person, it's fear not to fulfill your dreams, fear to disappoint your parents, fear to fail.

And don't even let me start on patriotism...

All aggression is based on fear? It may not be false, but is an over, over, over simplification of the subject.

[codmaster]

Originally Posted by Catu

If you want to think about, it is true, as much is true for every motivation in the world. It's not to be a good Christian, it's fear to go to ****, it's not love, it is fear to be alone, it's fear something can happen to your children, your spouse, your friends. You don't fight to be a better person, it's fear not to fulfill your dreams, fear to disappoint your parents, fear to fail.

And don't even let me start on patriotism...

All aggression is based on fear? It may not be false, but is an over, over, over simplification of the subject.

Some people (and DOGS) fight because they like to!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Castlemaid]

And I wonder what the motivation for liking to fight is? I know in my rescue, it is insecurity - she wants to fight other dogs because she wants to be top dog, and she is insecure about her position.

Gryffon is happy to let others be top dog, but he will fight for real in protection training - his motivation is defense - there is a real and present threat, and he fights to defend himself and over come the threat. One could say that he is afraid of being overpowered and loosing, so there is an element of fear, but there is also an element of confidence and inner strength, because he feels himself capable of winning and overpowering.