Horrible! My Two Boys are Fighting. Need Help!

[Skeezix]

We have three German Shepherd Dogs, one female (Zera, 4 y/o) and two males (Buddy, 5 y/o & Griff, 3 y/o) , all rescues. All are neutered. We adopted Griff in April of ’09 and took Buddy in as a foster dog in June of ’09. Buddy was extremely abused, both physically and mentally, when we got him, but has made fantastic progress. However, because of some issues that might be permanent, and the fact that we fell in love with him, we decided to adopt him also.

The trouble is that during the last 9 months or so, Buddy has gained enough confidence that he has decided to challenge Griff for Beta canine position in our “pack”. Zera is the Alpha canine and the boys never challenge her, but she doesn’t interfere with their disputes. The dogs mind my wife and I quite well and seem to recognize us as the ALPHA’s of our “pack”.

Buddy keeps pestering Griff off and on, and Griff will take it for weeks, but he finally gets a belly full of it and attacks Buddy. When we see Buddy bothering Griff, we tell him NO! and will separate them, sometimes putting Buddy in his crate for a couple of hours or more. We also try to watch for them posturing and cutting their eyes at each other, and verbally correct them. These actions have been mostly successful, and they generally get along OK, however, over the last 8 or 9 months, they have had 4 fights and each one has been worse than the ones preceding it. The fights have started when we were distracted doing something and didn’t notice them posturing or didn’t notice Buddy pestering Griff.

When they start fighting, and we start yelling at them, Buddy will mind and stop and try to get away, but Griff will NOT give up and keeps pressing the attack. The end result being that Buddy ends up taking the brunt of the injuries, which have been worse with each successive fight. The only way we’ve been able to stop the fights is for me to grab Griff and pull him away from Buddy, but this has been difficult sometimes because he has latched onto Buddy and won’t let go. Truth be told, I believe that if we didn’t intervene, Buddy would win the fight (but at great cost to both dogs). However when we start to break up the fight, Buddy minds us and stops, then Griff uses that opportunity to gain the upper hand and really hurt Buddy.

There has GOT to be some way to train these two male dogs to get along and stop being aggressive to each other. The heartbreak of seeing these normally wonderful dogs injuring each other is more than we can stand. And these 4 fights have already cost us hundreds of dollars in vet bills. What do you suggest?

[AgileGSD]

First off you are assuming there is far more of a strict hierarchy with dogs than what is actually likely to exist. Same sex aggression between dogs is not really about challenging for a certain "position".

Same sex aggression (also called Interdog aggression) can be a problem in GSDs. I have known dogs (both males and females) who were same sex aggressive, had some sex aggressive parents, grandparents and other relatives. These dogs were raised by different people, in different environments and with differing training views. This, along with the fact that some breeds are much more or much less at risk for SSA indicates that this problem has strong genetic predisposition.

My own experience with same sex aggression is with two female GSDs. One is truly same sex aggressive and she can't be with any of our other adult females. The other gets along with our other girls for the most part but will fight with the SSA GSD girl in an instant. They would fight to the point of injuring each other and were extremely hard to break up once they started. I had the SSA girl from puppyhood but brought the second same age GSD in when they were both about a 14-15 months. The loved each other for the first year or so - always played together, slept together, really did everything together. Once the fights started though, they reached a point were they could not safely be kept together any more. They are both 12 1/2 years old now and haven't been out together for almost 10 years. They live in separate parts of the house and have separate outside time.

Unfortunately, you are not correct in your idea that there absolutely HAS to be a way to get these dogs to get along. At the very least, you will never be able to to go back to how things where before the fighting started. Dogs who have repeated history of fighting result in injuries serious enough to require vet care are unlikely to every be totally trustworthy with each other again. It is unfair to the dogs to repeatedly put them in situations where they will be injured. Even if you can force them to get along some of the time, there is a great deal of stress caused by these dogs having to be together after having a history of violent fights. It is also dangerous for you and your wife to be put in a situation of breaking up two large fighting dogs. Very often the only options to resolve SSA is to either place one of the dogs or keep both dogs separated at all times: Pit Bull Rescue Central

A two part article about Interdog Aggression article by a respected behaviorist:

Interdog aggression can strike with deadly consequences - DVM
Interdog aggression: What are the warning signs? - DVM

[clearcreekranch]

I don't know if this will work, but have you tried walking them on leashes together. And I don't mean short walks....very, very long walks at a brisk pace? I agree that there may not be an easy solution, but you have to keep trying. I vote for the separation when you can't keep your attention on them. And am I clear that this fighting is not over a bone or toy or favorite spot? And please be careful, people have been bitten horribly by there own dogs when they are in that state of aggression. I can't say that I wouldn't do the same thing, though. It has got to be hard to see 2 animals that you love going at each other.

[ilivenanigloo]

Interesting...my GSD and my mom's cocker schnoodle used to squabble. I think if my mom and I could have agreed on allowing Lupa, who was thrice the size of Dixie, to be dominant it might have resolved. Unfortunately, my mom thought the cocker jealousy thing wasn't bad/was understandable and I just wanted to glorify my own dog or something. They never fought as bad as what you described, but the small dog bit through my thumbnail when I broke up a bad fight (Lupa backed off when I told her to).

Anyway, could I have done so, I would have helped Lupa assert her position by feeding her first (separately if food aggression became an issue), letting her out the door first, petting her first and any other small way that would give her the advantage. I guess the thing to do would be observe what causes problems and address that. Is there confusion/lack of consistency in how each is treated?

I hope this helps or someone will give me feedback, as I'd like an answer to this as well. I know this may not be helpful advice since I've not tried it myself.

[LaRen616]

Originally Posted by clearcreekranch

I don't know if this will work, but have you tried walking them on leashes together. And I don't mean short walks....very, very long walks at a brisk pace? I agree that there may not be an easy solution, but you have to keep trying. I vote for the separation when you can't keep your attention on them. And am I clear that this fighting is not over a bone or toy or favorite spot?

I agree.

They do say that walking dogs together can help with bonding.

[AgileGSD]

Originally Posted by LaRen616

I agree.

They do say that walking dogs together can help with bonding.

These dogs are not new to each other, they have lived together for a year and they are now seriously fighting. Walking dogs together can help two new dogs get acquainted better but the issue with these dogs is obviously not on of needing to get to know each other better.

[ken k]

speaking from experience, DO NOT put your hands in there to break them up, you will have to buy one of the small hand held boat air horns, when they start fight get in close and let her rip, and you may have to keep the 2 separate, i have to females that would like to kill each other, its a little extra work but much safer for me and them

[Elaine]

There is no way you can make these dogs get along. You can make them behave while you are standing right there watching, but you can't when you're not. The only thing you can do is keep them separate any time you can't directly supervise them.

[GROVEBEAUTY]

I have three males and we have this type of problem, but only when the female(s) are in heat. I'm not sure you will ever get them to get along. Long walks to remove excess energy may help. I'm not sure it will cure it. I had to keep two females apart for several years for this same reason, they would try to kill each other. The two females were littermates and got along until about two years old.

[dgon27]

Originally Posted by Skeezix

The only way we’ve been able to stop the fights is for me to grab Griff and pull him away from Buddy, but this has been difficult sometimes because he has latched onto Buddy and won’t let go. Truth be told, I believe that if we didn’t intervene, Buddy would win the fight (but at great cost to both dogs). However when we start to break up the fight, Buddy minds us and stops, then Griff uses that opportunity to gain the upper hand and really hurt Buddy.

Hi Skeezix. I am no expert, as you can see by some of my posts, but as far as the breaking up a fight I have a bit of experience. I used to have 2 female American Bulldogs who would do the same thing. You stated that when you break up the fight, Griff takes the opportunity to gain the upper hand and really hurt Buddy. If this happens again, grab Griff by his hind legs and lift him up. This should make him feel uncomfortable and make him stop. It worked for me.