Horrible! My Two Boys are Fighting. Need Help!

[Anja1Blue]

You have received some honest advice in the above posts. There is really no way to get dogs to get along once one, or both, have decided to up the ante. Just because they have been fine up until this point is not a guarantee that you can return them to their former state. (As an example, people can start off liking one another, and yet some time later you hear they are going through a nasty divorce. Times and circumstances and emotions change, and dogs are sometimes no different.) Especially if they are same sex GSD's. You can try walking them together, but that doesn't really address the issue of what they will do to each other when you aren't around to supervise. I think you have three choices - keep them separate, rehome one of them, or contact a behavioral specialist to see if you can at least bring the level of aggression down. Be prepared however that they will most likely never be entirely trustworthy around one another again.
____________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 - waiting at the Bridge

[Skeezix]

I truly appreciate the honest advice. I've learned with previous dogs that they will sometimes hold a "grudge" against a certain dog, even though they got along great with most others. We already had been keeping them separated when we weren't there to supervise them, but even when we are supervising them, they take advantage of any time that we let down our guard and start fighting. They are both equally guilty.

We've talked about rehoming Griff, but that would be very hard on us. He is such a sweet and fun dog: a big ol' goofy goober, except when he's around Buddy. And Buddy just has too many remaining emotional issues from his previous abuse to safely rehome him, plus he's completely stolen my wife's heart. In addition, Buddy is one of those dogs that truly has a "spirit" or "soul", and it's a sweet, loving one (except towards Griff). You can see it in his eyes and feel it when you're around him.

We've talked about seeing an animal behavioral specialist and will certainly pursue that option. If we go that route, we'll deal with Buddy's issues first, because he's usually the first instigator of the aggression. The trouble is that we are out in the middle of nowhere, and it's 3 1/2 hours to the nearest specialist. But we will do it anyway. These dogs are worth it.

I'd still like to hear anyone else's ideas too!

[gsdraven]

Originally Posted by Skeezix

We've talked about rehoming Griff, but that would be very hard on us.

What about how hard it is on him to be constantly on edge and fearing being attacked in his own home?

[Stosh]

The trainer we had for our CGC class has been a trainer for 25+ yrs, has trained several service dogs, etc...I'm saying she has lots of experience. She rescued a gsd female, had her for 4 yrs in the house with her male and female Goldens. One night the gsd attacked the male Golden, completely unprovoked and practically ripped his face off. SHe and her husband couldn't separate them before there was serious damage to both dogs. The trainer said there had been incidents in the past, she didn't completely trust the gsd and had considered rehoming her but as a trainer she felt she could handle the situation. She ended up having to put the gsd down. My point, is that the trainer really knew better and wished now she had placed the gsd in a different home as an only dog. I agree with GSDRaven, that this dog would have had much less stress than living with that much stress every day

[Anja1Blue]

Originally Posted by gsdraven

What about how hard it is on him to be constantly on edge and fearing being attacked in his own home?

Agreed - we tend to always look at a situation from our point of view, but in actual fact we should be looking at it from the dog's. I don't think you have many options, and I don't think there are many more ideas out there. I believe you are looking for someone to say "here's the magic fix - do this and they will be best buddies again." (Which is natural, we'd all like that...) Nothing would make me happier than to be wrong, but I don't believe that is being realistic. Good luck with the trainer though and let us know how things turn out!
________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge

[AgileGSD]

Originally Posted by Skeezix

We've talked about rehoming Griff, but that would be very hard on us. He is such a sweet and fun dog: a big ol' goofy goober, except when he's around Buddy. And Buddy just has too many remaining emotional issues from his previous abuse to safely rehome him, plus he's completely stolen my wife's heart. In addition, Buddy is one of those dogs that truly has a "spirit" or "soul", and it's a sweet, loving one (except towards Griff). You can see it in his eyes and feel it when you're around him.

We've talked about seeing an animal behavioral specialist and will certainly pursue that option. If we go that route, we'll deal with Buddy's issues first, because he's usually the first instigator of the aggression. The trouble is that we are out in the middle of nowhere, and it's 3 1/2 hours to the nearest specialist. But we will do it anyway. These dogs are worth it.

Be very cautious of any trainer who tells you this problem can be "cured". The truth is that there are never any guarantees with aggression cases - it depends on the individual dog, owner and situation. It is pretty rare for a case like this to be totally cured - as in the dogs return to getting along fine without strict management. If you decide to keep both dogs and attempt to get them to tolerate each other, understand that in ally likelihood things will never be easy with them again. And mismanagement on your part may result in seriously injured dogs (or humans). If you can't bear to part with either of them your only option may be to crate and rotate, which I posted an article about in my first reply.

[GSD_man]

I am a real strong believer that 90% of all aggression cases in ANY pack can be cured using a combination of strong pack leadership, exercise, NILIF, obedience training and corrections when applicable. Of course the desired behavior MUST be positively reinforced.

I do agree that there can be exceptions to the norm involving medical cases, early age socialization problems etc. and do find that aggression issues among rescues tend to be more challenging compared to aggression issues with a dog who you raised since he/she was a 8 week old puppy.

Given exact advice over the net, without actually being there and studying pack member behavior is another challenge. I do believe that you are doing the right thing by seeking out a professional service provider in your area.

Good luck and keep us posted!

[AgileGSD]

Originally Posted by Miraculix

I am a real strong believer that 90% of all aggression cases in ANY pack can be cured using a combination of strong pack leadership, exercise, NILIF, obedience training and corrections when applicable. Of course the desired behavior MUST be positively reinforced.

How many cases of serious same sex aggression do you have personal experience with?

[GSD_man]

lol

let's rather not hijack the OPs threat and take this into the wrong direction

[Skeezix]

We have practiced strong pack leadership. We've had as many as five rescues at one time and never a problem like this. We've used NILIF for weeks on end with Buddy, to no avail. He would come right back trying to start a fight with Griff, even with immediate and consistent corrections. We even had him on tranquilizers for a short while. We've had extensive medical testing and analysis performed on him. He's had obedience training and proved to be exceptionally smart. The fastest learner I've ever dealt with. We've played with him and walked him until he was ready to drop, but still the aggression continued.

We sought out behaviorists, chased and read every bit of info that we could find, talked to trainers. With his bite history (bitten at least three different people at different times), adoption agencies won't touch him because of liability issues. We've literally spent thousands of dollars and untold hours on this dog. But most importantly, we took Buddy into our hearts. We loved him dearly. He truly was our Buddy. We poured 15 months of our hearts and souls into Buddy. But he was like an autistic child that just couldn't control certain aspects of his behavior, but with the capability to inflict much more grievous damage than a child. He is one of the 10%, or whatever percentage, that just can not be reached and cured.

Because of all of this, we reached the horrible decision that the best thing to do was to put him to sleep. Yesterday morning we took him for a walk in one of his favorite places, let him piddle and pot at his own pace. Then we took him to the vet. He left this life cradled in our arms, his beautiful fur sprinkled with our tears.

Our souls are grieving. There is a huge hole in our hearts. We've cried enough tears to float a boat. We pray for Buddy that he can be healed, freed from fear and mental issues, can be truly and completely happy, and that he will be waiting for us when we get to the next life.