What type of Aggression is this?

[pac liter]

Originally Posted by AgileGSD

I had the volume off but dogs respond much better to training them what you want them to do then yelling at them for what you don't want them to do. Without the sound, I noticed Rabbit showing signs of stress and I would guess it was a response to the yelling.

She seems to be territorial and have barrier frustration, both traitsGSDs are known for. I wouldn't suggest letting her charge out the door and hoping people can fend off her biting them. She needs better management but not in the form of yelling or physical punishment. For example, instead of retraining and punishing the territorial behavior teach Rabbit to run to a specific area and wait (such as a mat away from the door) when she hears someone out front. I have a very territorial Belgian and was able to teach her to come to the back room at work when customers came in the front. So instead of barking and wanting to grab at people over the gate, she would bark once and run into the back room.

One other reason to teach a specific behavior instead of just relying on physically restraining and intimidating the dogs is that the Lab's behavior made me think there may be a tendency towards redirected aggression with her. If she ends up grabbing the GSD (redirecting) while the GSD is "after" whatever is on the other side of the door you could have a fight on your hands. It would be best all around to get them to tone down the front door behavior.

I think that if you were to watch the video again with sound you would clearly see that Rabbit's barking is in response to the leaf blower and land scapers. It is not a response to my commands.


Haha we don't let her charge the front door. That is the guest house door and there are land scapers in the backyard working. We always take precautions.

We are not worried about our yellow lab butters, attacking Rabbit. He submits to her everytime.

I don't rely on physical intimidation and restraining, usually. I try to use corrections (collar tugs and verbal "Eeh!"), obedience (getting her to sit and down while in drive), and redirection (tennis ball). If you notice during 90% of the video she is free to go where she pleases.

I appreciate the responses and comments.

[AgileGSD]

Originally Posted by pac liter

I think that if you were to watch the video again with sound you would clearly see that Rabbit's barking is in response to the leaf blower and land scapers. It is not a response to my commands.

Obviously the barking is not a response to your commands. As I said it appears to be territorial behavior combined with barrier frustration.

Originally Posted by pac liter

Haha we don't let her charge the front door. That is the guest house door and there are land scapers in the backyard working. We always take precautions.

I was responding to your comment that your landscapers have had to fend your dog off with their tools. That is not taking precautions.

Originally Posted by pac liter

We are not worried about our yellow lab butters, attacking Rabbit. He submits to her everytime.

Redirected aggression has nothing to do with dominance or submission. It is a pretty common behavior in high arousal settings. It is hard to see what the Lab is doing but it looks as though he grabbed at her at around 30 seconds. Maybe he didn't. There is always a risk of redirected aggression when there is barrier frustration and/or guarding behavior involving something the dogs can never get to. I actually know of a smaller mixed breed dog (35 lbs) who killed an older, much larger Greyhound because of redirected aggression.

This video shows a bit of redirected aggression:

You Tube

You Tube

[Jax08]

Redirected Aggression - We have a boxer that does this. We believe it's because she feels a situation is out of control. If anyone goofs around in the least little way, Sierra will turn on Jax. Normally, Sierra is submissive to Jax except in these situations. Ex: I walked by the couch and grabbed DH's sock and gave it a tug. He laughed and moved quickly to grab my hand. I gave a low shriek. Sierra turned on Jax. It has nothing to do with submission or even another dog. It's a reaction to a situation.

[pac liter]

Thanks for responding however I disagree with your points.

Originally Posted by AgileGSD

Without the sound, I noticed Rabbit showing signs of stress and I would guess it was a response to the yelling.

Originally Posted by AgileGSD

Obviously the barking is not a response to your commands. As I said it appears to be territorial behavior combined with barrier frustration.

Not sure what you mean here.

Originally Posted by AgileGSD

I was responding to your comment that your landscapers have had to fend your dog off with their tools. That is not taking precautions.

That was the pool guy and it was in the backyard. Incident was in the past so that doesn't happen anymore, hence the "we take precautions".

Originally Posted by AgileGSD

Redirected aggression has nothing to do with dominance or submission. It is a pretty common behavior in high arousal settings. It is hard to see what the Lab is doing but it looks as though he grabbed at her at around 30 seconds. Maybe he didn't. There is always a risk of redirected aggression when there is barrier frustration and/or guarding behavior involving something the dogs can never get to. I actually know of a smaller mixed breed dog (35 lbs) who killed an older, much larger Greyhound because of redirected aggression.

I think it has something to do with dominance. If a lower pack animal tries to redirect aggression on a higher pack animal, the higher pack member will usually not just stand there and accept the aggression but instead respond back.

The lower member learns that it not OK redirect anger at higher members and the problem is solved. Sometimes the lower pack member needs to be reminded of the pack order, but these are minor corrections adminstered through a short growl, bark, or some play.

There are plenty of cases where a small breed like a chihuahua dominates a bigger dog such as a GSD. A dominant dog will usually not accept aggression from a lower member. A dominant dog will not rationalize the type of aggression and think "Oh that was redirected aggression so I will let it slide". He/she will likely correct the aggression, regardless of the type of aggression.

At least this is how it plays out with my dogs.

[Jax08]

Originally Posted by pac liter

I think it has something to do with dominance. If a lower pack animal tries to redirect aggression on a higher pack animal, the higher pack member will usually not just stand there and accept the aggression but instead respond back.

The lower member learns that it not OK redirect anger at higher members and the problem is solved. Sometimes the lower pack member needs to be reminded of the pack order, but these are minor corrections adminstered through a short growl, bark, or some play.
.

No, they don't so No, it's not. I'm glad it works out that way in your house but there is more to redirected aggression than what you are perceiving.

[JKlatsky]

Originally Posted by pac liter

I think it has something to do with dominance. If a lower pack animal tries to redirect aggression on a higher pack animal, the higher pack member will usually not just stand there and accept the aggression but instead respond back.

The lower member learns that it not OK redirect anger at higher members and the problem is solved. Sometimes the lower pack member needs to be reminded of the pack order, but these are minor corrections adminstered through a short growl, bark, or some play.

There are plenty of cases where a small breed like a chihuahua dominates a bigger dog such as a GSD. A dominant dog will usually not accept aggression from a lower member. A dominant dog will not rationalize the type of aggression and think "Oh that was redirected aggression so I will let it slide". He/she will likely correct the aggression, regardless of the type of aggression.

At least this is how it plays out with my dogs.

This is NOT how it works in my house. When my middle child got a little worked up and redirected onto my older male who is currently higher in the pack, what I got was a dog fight. Middle child redirected because he was so worked up that he was no longer thinking and chose to lash out at what was closest- Older male. Older male came back big- but middle child had lost his brain somewhere and had no concept for what was happening anymore and fought back even though he wouldn't normally challenge him.

I would stop her and redirect her into something else.

[pac liter]

Thanks for the suggestions. I will keep a close eye on things. Honestly I don't think I will ever be able stop her defensive barking. It is just something that will have to be managed. If my dogs started fighting, well that would really suck.

BTW upon rereading Fogle's "The Dog's Mind" I was reminded that territorial aggression can be a mixture of fear aggression and dominance aggression. Hence the tail up and charging (dominant aggression) and ears back (fear aggression) while barking. I think her bark sounds rather frantic and fear based too.

[APBTLove]

Does she respond the same to people out off of your property?

She's a pretty girl.

[AgileGSD]

Originally Posted by pac liter

Not sure what you mean here.

You asked "what kind of aggression is this". My reply was territorial aggression/barrier frustration.

Originally Posted by pac liter

That was the pool guy and it was in the backyard. Incident was in the past so that doesn't happen anymore, hence the "we take precautions".

That's good to hear

Originally Posted by pac liter

I think it has something to do with dominance. If a lower pack animal tries to redirect aggression on a higher pack animal, the higher pack member will usually not just stand there and accept the aggression but instead respond back.

The idea that "dominance" is the cause of most dog behavior is pretty outdated. Redirected aggression can happened between any two dogs and is usually an issue when there is barrier frustration going on.

Originally Posted by pac liter

The lower member learns that it not OK redirect anger at higher members and the problem is solved. Sometimes the lower pack member needs to be reminded of the pack order, but these are minor corrections adminstered through a short growl, bark, or some play.

Or sometimes there are injuries or a great big dog fight.

[pac liter]

Originally Posted by APBTLove

Does she respond the same to people out off of your property?

She's a pretty girl.

Her aggression is definately stronger on the property. But still she used to freak out on kids, bicycles, and blue collar workers while on walk but she has improved considerably. Once I started using a pinch she was more reluctant to show aggression.

Thanks for the compliment.