Trying to understand the cause of aggression

[bengwie]

Ah, you remember my last thread that I opened few weeks ago. My guests haven't come here yet and I have spoken with my dog trainer (who also works as a schutzhund helper in the club) on how to handle him, what he said makes sense, he told me to tell the guests to approach calmly just like whatever he did to us when we did private training, and throw some slices of sausage when he is calmed down.

Originally Posted by onyx'girl

I would definately focus on obedience, good decision~along with tracking of course! But keep it fun and not something that he feels he has to do so he isn't getting corrected. Take some steps back if you have to.
Are you in contact with the place that did the protection training? Or can a club member help you with him w/ some private lesson?
I remember another thread that you had-worried about guests coming to stay? How'd that go?

[onyx'girl]

I would still take him to the club and work on obedience, tracking only.

I pay that amount(helper fee) and I am a member of my club...we don't rush the training so sometimes it feels as if we are stagnant-but good training shouldn't be rushed.
What is the whole backstory on your dog?

[JKlatsky]

Originally Posted by bengwie

The problem with previous training was (from the trainer we bought him from) he was challenged to be aggressive, the more aggressive the better appraise he got. The reason why I took him to schutzhund club because I spoke with the trainer there, who told me that we need to desensitize him / calm him off a little bit because he was too alerted. I did private sessions with him for about a month and the trainer welcame us to the schutzhund club afterward, but since then the training has been on and off because of some events that conflicts with the schutzhund club schedule and plus I was honestly kind of pissed off because everytime I go to schutzhund club, my dog only plays in the field for about 10 minutes and I had to pay $30 each time. I have been going to club on and off about 6-8 times, and so far it's the same kind of training over and over for 10 minutes. It makes me feel that going there is a waste of money while I can play tug o war with him myself.

What do you guys think? Did you (who did schutzhund training for the dog) think that whatever I did up there make sense or should I keep going to schutzhund club?

Unfortunately that is the nature frequently of training. You can't work dogs for that long. Generally 10-15 minutes per session is normal, and $30 isn't way out of line. If they're not changing what the dog is doing it could be because the dog isn't ready to change. I know it may just look like someone playing tug with the dog, but you have to look at the big picture. It's a stranger, on a field, probably making some posture and watching the dog's reactions, and trying to adjust those reactions. Your dog has to change the way he thinks about protection and become clear about his job. It takes time.

If you don't want to pay right now for the guardwork, I would keep working on the OB and tracking. But don't be surprised if your work goes right out the window when you get to club. He's probably conditioned to behave a certain way when there and it'll take time and probably some counter conditioning to put him back to where he needs to be.

If it was me, I would keep going out once a week, but focus on the TR and OB like Jane said.

[bengwie]

Just out of my curiousity, from your experience, how long do you think it will take for my dog to be able to do offleash in schutzhund field with the 10 minutes training only (mostly tugging with the sleeve or shutzhund pillow)?

The backstory of the dog is a personal protection dog trainer sold me this dog, which I thought this dog was already capable of everything like I see in CPI (please check out www.protectiondogs.com). This is really my first GSD, as I thought this trainer would like to sell me the same dog like in CPI but much less. Anyway we bought the dog and brought him home, he was fine with us and never shown any aggression to anyone until few weeks later when he started bonding with us. He showed aggression toward anything that came approaching us. This situation really frustrated me. We went back for some follow up trainings from the trainer who sold me my dog, he taught me on how to handle this dog, but he himself many times warns me that this dog is really aggressive so be very careful. And what he showed me everytime was yanking the pronk collar until he whimpers everytime he looks alerted (like when he was looking or just even eye-balling someone).

I thought this wasn't fair to him because it's his nature to be alerted, and as long he doesn't show aggression, I don't want to do this to him because it hurt him so bad. So I browsed around and I found about schutzhund club around my area, and decided to check it out and I spoke with the trainer. The trainer told me to bring the dog, and I did the next week itself. He evaluated my dog and told me that he was to alerted that as if he were a car, he is always at red line. So he suggested me to have private obedience training sessions with him for few weeks, so I did for 4 weeks. He showed so much difference after this obedience training as I also stopped going to follow up trainings from the trainer where I got him from. He doesn't aggress people or dogs. In the meantime, this trainer already welcome me and my dog to the schutzhund club that he knows that my dog isn't crazy. I have been going there on and off because of seeing stagnant results and paying $30 each time for 10 minutes session. I am really in doubt whether I should continue going there.

Correct me if I am wrong, when the dog is able to do bark and hold, you probably can tell that your dog is already safe for offleash, correct? Please help newbie here. Thanks.

Originally Posted by onyx'girl

I would still take him to the club and work on obedience, tracking only.

I pay that amount(helper fee) and I am a member of my club...we don't rush the training so sometimes it feels as if we are stagnant-but good training shouldn't be rushed.
What is the whole backstory on your dog?

[onyx'girl]

Before the PP trainer had the dog, where did he come from? Was he kennel raised, unsocialized?
H&B doesn't mean that much as far as obedience goes. Some dogs will bite dirty in the blind.
I would stick with the SchH trainer and do some private lessons with him. The PP used compulsion on your dog, so he has no foundation to fall back on. I wouldn't go back there at all.

Basically you are going to have to desensitise him and start over. Training takes time and when rushed you get the results you have been seeing with your boy.

[bengwie]

Thanks so much Jane for the advise. You really make me see a light at the end of my tunnel here. I am going to schutzhund training tonight, and you're right I shouldn't rush, but sometimes impatience comes out of my mind, it's clearly my fault. I would re-do the foundation over to make sure he is perfect.

Originally Posted by onyx'girl

Before the PP trainer had the dog, where did he come from? Was he kennel raised, unsocialized?
H&B doesn't mean that much as far as obedience goes. Some dogs will bite dirty in the blind.
I would stick with the SchH trainer and do some private lessons with him. The PP used compulsion on your dog, so he has no foundation to fall back on. I wouldn't go back there at all.

Basically you are going to have to desensitise him and start over. Training takes time and when rushed you get the results you have been seeing with your boy.

[JKlatsky]

Originally Posted by bengwie

Correct me if I am wrong, when the dog is able to do bark and hold, you probably can tell that your dog is already safe for offleash, correct? Please help newbie here. Thanks.

You're wrong. If your dog can be sent in for a Bark and Hold, maintain it even when the helper moves, and with a variety of distractions, and you can then reliably call the dog away from the helper, heel the dog around the field with the helper there and ask for sits and downs and attention to you and not the helper...then you probably have a safe dog.

ETA- Good attitude! Best of luck with your dog. Taking the time to do it right will pay off in the end.

[bengwie]

Cool guys, I just got home from schutzhund training, he is getting so much better, his tail is wagging, he is not as nervous, and I have understood better (thanks to Leerburg video). I am getting a little more addicted now..

[codmaster]

Originally Posted by bengwie

Thanks for the quick tips here, I should definitely work harder and take a few steps back in obedience training to repolish all the behaviors. I am currently re-watching the leerburg video again on e-collar training, and I notice there are some small mistakes that I make when using the e-collar based on Leerburg's theory.

If your dog was trained to bite AND not listen to obedience commands; it would appear to me that whoever trained him previously did a most poor job! And that you would have to back up and train him so he reacts reliably to your obedience command before you ever turn him loose off lead. Otherwise you have a lawsuit just waiting to happen!

[Jason L]

Originally Posted by JKlatsky

You're wrong. If your dog can be sent in for a Bark and Hold, maintain it even when the helper moves, and with a variety of distractions, and you can then reliably call the dog away from the helper, heel the dog around the field with the helper there and ask for sits and downs and attention to you and not the helper...then you probably have a safe dog.

Jklatsky is right and the key word is probably. A lot of it will also depend on who the dog is doing the H & B on. A dog can be very clean with one helper and then you put another helper with less presence in the blinds and the dog decides he is going to punk the helper just to show him who is boss. Last week I did a H & B in a bitesuit with a Sch3 regional lvl dog and he did 5 barks and then bite me in the crotch (thank god for the padding lol). No matter how well trained, never forget they are still dogs ... so put as much obedience on the dog as you can.