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Our GSD bit my DH in the face, lacerations, please help us find answers

22K views 135 replies 57 participants last post by  Cassidy's Mom 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Hello everyone!

I saw what Mustlovedogs is going through and I joined this forum to post and maybe get answers to what happened to us.
To give you some background, I have had 5 GSDs in my lifetime. My DH has also had GSDs. We are no strangers to the breed and the fact that they need a calm and assertive leader.

We got K as a puppy from a very reputable breeder. At the time I had a senior 14 yo GSD who passed away shortly after we got K. We also have a female GSD who is 5yo. We were very consciencious of having K be raised by us and not by our other GSD as the breeder stated. K was very attached to both my DH and I from the start. The breeder and vet also said not to neuter K until he was over 2 yo if ever.

From 8 weeks old we worked with K on puppy classes and obedience, crating him at night and when we were not home. He is a beautiful, smart and high drive GSD. We took him to a dog park that never had any other dogs and we exercised him almost daily (running after the ball would tire him more than my DH or I could run!). He showed agression to strangers and other dogs from 8weeks old. Never showed agression with us. We would play with him but he was not allowed to "play" bite us. We were on his food, touching it and taking it away and giving it back with praise, we would also have him do commands bfore feeding him. He could get on the bed with us when invited for about 10 min every night then crate.

When he was 6 months old I had a baby boy. While the baby is never alone with the dogs, we were very careful with every interaction. K and our DS became best buds. Our son loves K and K loves him. Our DS dropped food for him. We always ate first, etc... K knew the difference between his toys and baby toys and would let go of baby toys. He never ever growled at us for taking any food or toy or bone from him since we got him so used to it since young. He loved snuggling next to us on the couch and would always turn over on his belly for us and for our son to scratch.

I thought I was living a dream, until last month. I had two wonderful GSDs, a gorgeous 16 month old baby who loved and cared for the dogs, a wonderful DH who was as crazy about dogs as I am.

Then our world fell apart. I was home with DH (our son was at a play date) and I heard this awful scream. My Dh called for help and I found him in the bathroom. His injuries are as follows: imagine you took a pair of scissors and cut your upper lip up to your nose, then get those scissors and jamm them in your nose as to puncture through your nose all the way in your sinus. then get the scissors and make a big hole on the bridge of your nose so the cartilage that separates your two nostrils has a big hole. K latched onto my Husband's face and did not let go, he kept pushing him and finally my husband was abel to use his hand to pry open K's mouth to let go of his face. He also suffered severe lacerations of his thumb trying to open K's mouth. We ran to the ER, where he had to have a plastic surgeon reconstruct his lip and nose. The pastic surgeon said my DH was within a 1/4" of losing his whole upper lip and tip of nose right off his face!

This is how my Dh described this. He gave K food in the usual place, the way he always does. He said K looked at him funny and did not goble the food up like he always does. Then DH put his hand pointing to the bowl and said K your food. Without any warning or any growls, k lunged and held on to his face.

This has been devastating to us. For about 2 weeks I kept my husband separated from K who wanted to lick him (couldn't risk any infection or damage to the stitches), separated from our son. I played with him and fed him and loved him but in the back of my mind I always had what happened to my DH, not that I feared him, I just felt I could not trust him.

After a lot of heartbreak, my DH and I decided to call the breeder and see if they would take him back (he is shy of 2 years old). The breeder did take him back and will try and train him for Schutzhund. I have cried every day since this incident. I never thought I would be "one of those people" that decide not to keep a dog. I love him like family but the truth is that with my 16 month old boy, I could not in good conscience keep K after what happened to my husband. If that had happened to our son, he would not have a face right now. I also could not keep K and give him a substandard life always separated from us and always in a crate.

At home we were always bale to intorduce him to strangers and he was fine with guests, even bringing them toys and wanting affection. He never showed agression towards anyone in our family or friends over toys or food or anything. No growls nothing. He never had possession issues even with our other dog over food or toys. I know this has to be about food in some way but I just don't understand how it went from zero agression over food to a full attack on my Dh's face when he was doing what he did for the past 18 months with K. Oh, our other dog was nowhere near the food when this happened.

I know that it is not just his fault and that I am sure that in some way, without knowing it, we probably made some mistakes with him. We were very harshly judged by people over "ever having a german shepherd around your baby." And "putting your son in such danger." I still believe that German Shepherds are a wonderful breed and my DH and I still really love K and I call the kennel every week to hear of news. I miss him dearly every day and our home and hearts are empty without him.

This was not a decision we took lightly, but with my toddler, I just could not keep K in our house after what happened. Again, there was no nip, or warning. No growl, nothing, he just went for my Dh's face and pushed him and held on to it where my DH had to pry his mouth open to let go of his face, cutting his fingers in his mouth. He almost lost part of his face.

We are looking for any advice or insight. I figure as dog lovers you would understand our pain and situation. We would love to have another GSD in addition to our female (not any time soon) and would love to hear of ways to avoid something like this from happening. I saw all the support and encouragement you gave must love dogs and also advice and I was hoping you could help us too. :help: Did we make a mistake by getting a puppy from a kennel with high drive dogs? Did we make a mistake by not neutering him? The breeder told my husband that we should have never had the two dogs together. That a family should have only one shepherd and never two unless they are to be created all the time and only let out one at a time.

to must love dogs - I hope Todd is healing well and my heart goes out to you.

Thank you again to everyone!
 
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#2 ·
WOW! That is terrible and you and your family have my complete sympathy!

From what you have described I would look for a medical reason from the way the dog acted. It sure doesn't sound like you guys did anything wrong with the dog.

I would have been very tempted to put the dog down (assuming that there was no medical reason that could be found!) - there is no other justifiable reason that I could think of for that outrageous act.

Most understandable that you would not want the dog around your baby (or yourself or DH for that matter) any more.
 
#3 · (Edited)
I'm so sorry for you and your family.

It's hard to say what happened without having been there or known the dog. To me, it just sounds like straight dominance. The age seems about right for that to be kicking in. Right before a dog does something there's a look, and the mouth closes. Who knows. Maybe your husband was leaning in a way the dog found challenging, or he looked him in the face. There's really no telling, but it happened.

It's simple truth that some dogs are just not right for families and need very strict structure in their lives that average family life does not provide. Do not feel guilty.

That said. I do not think that getting a working line dog was a mistake. I have 4 pretty high drive dogs in my house and not one has ever challenged me. The are all social and eager to please. I've been grabbed out of enthusiasm or misplaced drive...but never from aggression. Do not tie in drive with aggression or dominance, because they do not go hand in hand. I think most people will tell you that what they look for in a Patrol dog vs a High Level Sport Dog vs a Family companion all have different criteria. It can be hard to judge when they are 8 weeks old. The dog you thought would be a great family pet might grow up differently. At best breeder's make educated guesses which can only be confirmed with time.

All my dogs are intact. They are not all out in the house together...mostly because I like my furniture, but they go out in compatible pairs in the yard without incident. So I think that yes. You can have a pair of GSDs that get along. Although I'm not sure what that has to do with your husband getting bit.

Anyway. I'm sorry that that was your experience. But like all experiences, we learn something.
 
#4 ·
I'm sorry you are going through this. From what I've read and what little I know...I don't see anything that you did wrong.

1) There are many, many homes with more than one household. There is a picture on this forum right now with 8 GSDs sitting patiently waiting for a treat.

2) It is NOT normal for a puppy to show aggression. It is NOT normal for a dog to lunge at it's owner, the person that has been feeding him since he was 8 weeks old, and not let go. There needs to be some serious medical testing done on this dog. If he's cleared on those then the breeder needs to look at the dogs that are being bred. ARe they stable temperments? High Drive does not equal high aggression.

3) If a dog had bitten someone in my family as severely as it bit your husband, under the conditions you stated, then I probably would have had him euthanized.

I say you did way more that alot of people would have and have nothing to feel bad about. :hugs:
 
#6 ·
Wow, what a horrible story! :( I hope your hubby is okay. I don't really see any big mistakes here. I don't take food away from my dogs, but I do a lot of hand feeding with them as puppies and put yummy things in the bowl while they're eating so they associate my presence at mealtimes with good things happening and don't feel the need to resource guard. I also have them sit or down with the bowl on the floor before releasing them to eat, and it sounds like you did something similar. I play trading games with toys and bones so they learn to give things up on cue and get good things in return, again, to avoid guarding behavior. I teach them not to grab toys out of my hand, they have to wait for me to release them to take it, and they sit or down with eye contact before we release them or we don't throw a ball or frisbee for them to chase. You may be doing these things as well.

It does sound like he may not have been socialized enough - hard to say for sure, but you mentioned "aggression" towards other dogs and people starting at 8 weeks old. An 8 week old puppy is too young to be truly aggressive, he may have been reacting defensively out of fear. For a young puppy everything is new and potentially scary, so exposing him to a lot of new places/people/things under positive circumstances is essential. That doesn't explain why he bit your husband who he'd been fine with all this time while he was doing something he'd been doing ever since you got Thor. Maybe other people can see something here that I'm not getting and have some ideas about what led up to the bite. It would have been less surprising to me if it had been a stranger and not your husband.

Did we make a mistake by getting a puppy from a kennel with high drive dogs? Did we make a mistake by not neutering him? The breeder told my husband that we should have never had the two dogs together. That a family should have only one shepherd and never two unless they are to be created all the time and only let out one at a time.
Many people have high drive working line dogs that compete in Schutzhund living in their home, even families with young children, so that's not necessarily a big deal in general, although this particular dog may not have been a good fit for you. I don't agree with not neutering ever, but many people suggest waiting until the dog is mature rather than doing it as young as vets will recommend, and I know that some breeders prefer that you not neuter unless there's a good reason. I had Keefer neutered at 15 months old.

I do not agree at all with what your breeder said about always keeping your dogs separate. Many people separate their dogs when they're not home, but they're together when people are home and can supervise. I've had GSDs since 1986, but up until 4 years ago, always one at a time. Since then, I've had two, and not only are they both in the house with us when we're here, they are together in a chain link enclosure in our garage with a dog door to an outside run when we're gone. I've never had a problem with mine - I expect them to get along, I work on training them to get along and play nice from the very beginning (mine even eat side by side, which is another thing that a lot of people won't do), but I totally understand that not all dogs are able to peacefully coexist like that or that other owners would rather be safe than sorry and not risk trying it. Still, not EVER letting them loose together in your home seems very extreme to me, and not a situation I'd ever want. If I had a dog that didn't get along well with other dogs, I would simply not add another dog to my household - I have NO interest in playing "musical crates"!
 
#9 ·
If the breeder is saying to always keep the dogs seperated, doesn't that give some indication that he/she is seeing aggression in the dogs that are being bred?

I don't want to turn this into a bash that breeder thread...just curious...common sense tells me if the breeder believes that then there must be a reason and that reason is the dogs at the breeders have displayed aggression.
 
#10 ·
Yikes and hugs. I know I would not be able to keep a dog after that. My hubs would never want the dog around him again or the children.

Very scary. I hope your hubs is ok. Is the breeder going to express to anyone that this dog has bitten in the past. Something just doesn't sound right... was there a female dog in heat around somewhere, perhaps?
 
#11 ·
I don't believe keeping two dogs separated all the time is needed either. Though two dogs is a lot more of challenge to deal with and raise well than one, and the relationship is different with two dogs than it is with one.

With these recent posts I'm reminded of my employers GSD that bit me. I had known the dog since it was a pup, since the day my employer brought him home from a breeder, and spent at least some time with it daily. Lots of fetch, and interaction.

One day I was walking up to the building and he was off in the yard chewing a bone. I passed by him and as I got about 50ft away and turned to go into the building he charged me, launched at me and bit, hard.

Fortunately it was winter, and I was wearing a lot of layers with a thick heavy leather coat on, as good as a bite sleeve, so as he lunged up I blocked by giving him my arm. I'm a big guy so he didn't knock me down but I was pretty shocked he would do that just out of the blue for no apparent reason. If it had been a bare arm I would have been hurt, he bit with a full mouth and hard as he could.

I don't remember exactly if I smacked him or not. I do remember he went back over to what he was doing and never did it again. He did however bite other people and was eventually put down for it. He was intact and about 2-3 years old.

I'm pretty good at reading dogs, and I have never been able to understand why he did that, and have never seen another dog act that way toward me, even working for years in a high risk job as far as dogs go, going to many people's homes daily and often dealing with their dogs with nobody home.

I'm wondering if he had some kind of medical issue, but I'll never know.
 
#12 ·
First, I want to thank you so much for the simpathy. My Dh is slowly recovering, in a lot of pain. No infections thanks to massive antibiotics but it has been emotional. He will not be able to eat solids for about 6 weeks.

Thanks for the explanation of high drive vs agression. I didn't think they went hand in hand but reading your accounts makes me feel better. I think the breeder is concerned about pack behavior and family. Somehow she doesn't think you can have a harmonious relationship with two dogs in your family. I thought that was odd. She even said she would give us another puppy (not that it would substitute K) but only after our female shepherd passes away. So I was wondering why she would be so adamant about this? Is there a benefit to a family with young children to only having one GSD?

Putting him down was the other option because we were not going to give him to a rescue or shelter considering what happened. The breeder agreed to take him back and train him. She thinks it was a food dominance issue. I still have trouble simplifying it so much especially since my DH fed him in the same place for 18 months with no so much as a growl. If it had escalated from growling and nipping I could see it. But it went from zero aggression towards my DH who he loved dearly to an attack. The other troubling issue is that he did not let go of his face. The only thing my Dh and I came up with was maybe a surge of testosterone during his age that made him snap. I have no other explanation.

I would also love to hear about your experiences raising GSD with small children.

We are still in shock. Thank you again for all your insight. I really appreciate it!!!
 
#13 ·
TitonsDad mentioned the thyroid - sometimes sudden behavior changes can be attributed to medical conditions.

She thinks it was a food dominance issue. I still have trouble simplifying it so much especially since my DH fed him in the same place for 18 months with no so much as a growl. If it had escalated from growling and nipping I could see it. But it went from zero aggression towards my DH who he loved dearly to an attack. The other troubling issue is that he did not let go of his face.
I agree with you, that does seem very odd. It would probably be worth checking into, but under the circumstances I can see why you'd want him out of your house right away. I can't imagine the stress of living with an unpredictable dog that you can't trust.

What part of California are you in? I'm also curious who the breeder is, can you send me a PM?
 
#14 ·
I have a 10 year old, a 7 year old and an almost 4 year old. I've had 3 GSD's since my oldest was born. Two shelter dogs, females. In the house at the same time. Best of friends,. See the "Old girls" thread in the pix section if you want to see them. Then we had a 3 1/2 year old beagle and he was unaltered. He and Hubs had issues and he bit him and my youngest. We were minutes away from getting rid of him but the person wouldn't take him because he was unfixed.

Now we have Zeva and she nips but so far, no aggression of any kind. Well.. she seems to hate cats.

My kids and friends children used to be able to sit on my females like horses w/ no issues.

I'm so sorry for you and you hubs had to go through this. I'm glad it wasn't worse or it wasn't your baby!
 
#15 · (Edited)
That's scary, I am so sorry this happened to your husband and your family.

I find it odd as well - the breeder doesn't think 2 dogs can live harmoniously with a family? Makes me question what she knows about her lines that she isn't telling you.

*edit* I have 3 children 6 y/o boy, 5 y/o boy girl twins and 2 working line dogs - we have moments (usually involving the 8 1/2 year old dog!) but I actually think it's better to have 2 dogs when you have kids. The dogs have someone of their own species to mess with.
 
#16 ·
agreed. have 2 kids and 2 GSDs. before that, we had a lab and a GSD.
Now, I know that lots of people have a bit of difficulty with 2 dogs of the same sex, esp if they are unaltered. But that doesn't sound like what your breeder was talking about.

I also wonder why she feels so adamant that 2 dogs are bad?
 
#17 ·
Maybe pack mentality? I don't know. I do know that my older dog who was here before the children, she's rougher with my kids. When the boys play fight, she'll get in the middle of it. Otto does not, if the boys are screaming and boucning and playing BAM, I find Otto curled up with my daughter coloring or something.
 
#18 ·
how horrible for you all :((

I also would have gone the medical route first thing(and think the breeder should just to rule that 'in or out')

I don't agree with their idea of having 'one' dog..The majority of my dogs have been working lines and I have had 4 (3 males and 1 female) at one point, one unneutered, all live together in the house, and have never ever in my 30 years of having gsd's and other breeds had something even close happen to what you are experiencing.

Right now I have one gsd and 2 aussies, (2 females/one male) and still have no problems..

I have no insite to what could have happened,,tho horrific, the biggest thing that bothers me is he wouldn't let go.

I hope the breeder can find some insite into what's going on with him:((
Hope you all get thru this difficult time.
 
#19 ·
I am VERY sorry that happened to you and I would not keep the dog.I have never in my life heard that a GSD can't live with another dog. Mine is very aggressive and has lived with four other dogs. I don't know why this happend but I am very sorry and I really hope your husbands face heals ok.
 
#20 ·
i also have small kids (ages 5 and almost 3) and Clover and plan on getting a second in about 2 years. (when I have given the proper time training, loving, and raising Clover to be ready to handle another baby). I grew up with a kennel of anywhere from 10-15 rotties and 3-4 GSDs plus 2 litters at a time and only seen one attack my stepdad and only 2 fights ever between the dogs. (an unaltered male rottie grabbed my stepdads arm and caused some damage, and 2 female rotties fought each other til one had to be put down due to her injuries and 2 male rotties got into it once over a female in heat) I dont see why you cant have 2 or 5 dogs at one time as long as you are a responsible owner.
 
#21 · (Edited by Moderator)
Thank you again and it is encouraging to hear success stories with families and GSDs. I am reluctant to name the breeder even in a PM because she has taken him back and as far as her views on rasing GSDs, she has been doing this for many years even if I don't get it when she said we could not have 2 GSDs. I really don't want to put her on the spot and I hope you understand. She is aware of everything that happened.

Thanks again and please keep those good stories or any insight coming!!!
 
#22 · (Edited)
Welcome to you ThorDog, sorry it is under these circumstances.
There is a member here who's dog suffered from Rage syndrome.
Could it be your boy has a case of it? Did you ever notice him staring~ unfocused?
If it is a commercial kennel-sometimes those are the ones that don't see how the progeny turns out as they are breeding so many.
I give the breeder credit for taking him back, but to train him in SchH doesn't make sense as he seems to be unpredictable at this time.
I hope this doesn't turn you off the breed, and that your DH heals quickly with no complications.
 
#23 ·
I hope that the breeder will do a full blood panel and thorough vet exam at the very least, to rule out any medical causes such as thyroid issues, vision or hearing problems, or neurological problems. There are physical reasons which could cause a dog to suddenly react like that as well as the possibility of psychological, behavioral, or genetic causes. Usually one or more of those factors is involved. When a dog attack is said to happen suddenly with no warning it seems to me it is more likely to be a physical or psychological issue, however another cause for a dog to attack without warning is if they were previously punished for exhibiting aggressive behavior such as growling, snarling or other early warning signs. However without knowing in detail the dog's upbringing and previous behavior/training around food or seeing what happened before the bite occured there is no way to know if that contributed to it, or whether there was a genetic or psychological component.

Having been attacked by a dog myself before I know how scary and painful it can be so I wish your husband as quick and pain-free a recovery as possible!
 
#24 · (Edited)
I would hope the breeder does it as well, so she can re-asess the lines she is producing. Hopefully she will and not just send him to the bridge...
 
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